Middle East or stay at home ?
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They certainly are, and EK management has both in abundance.
If you have a job that pays the bills in a civilized part of the world then stay where you are.
As much as you'll wonder if you should have done it....you'll know for a fact that you shouldn't have done it.
Take it from us...we know.
"A smart man will learn from his mistakes, a smarter man will learn from the mistakes of others"
If you have a job that pays the bills in a civilized part of the world then stay where you are.
As much as you'll wonder if you should have done it....you'll know for a fact that you shouldn't have done it.
Take it from us...we know.
"A smart man will learn from his mistakes, a smarter man will learn from the mistakes of others"
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Thanks for all the responses. I appreciate the honesty - positive or negative.
It doesn't help when, as a possible newbie, you hear of guys leaving to go home and fly ATR's or go back to Ryanair (I don't work for a LCC and have already done scheduled LH). As somebody highlighted, the majority bail after 6-8 years. I can pay down most of my mortgage back home in that time, see places I would not otherwise have seen, etc. etc. which is great, but then what?
Most will have at least 8-10 years jet time when joining. Another 10 in the ME RHS just seems too long with the prospect of a command back home within a year or two. Some say take your first command regardless of airline or aircraft, others say (where seniority rules) get into your airline of choice. However it might not be everyday a major carrier calls up to offer a job which makes it even harder.
I guess as it goes, if in doubt, change nothing. 
It doesn't help when, as a possible newbie, you hear of guys leaving to go home and fly ATR's or go back to Ryanair (I don't work for a LCC and have already done scheduled LH). As somebody highlighted, the majority bail after 6-8 years. I can pay down most of my mortgage back home in that time, see places I would not otherwise have seen, etc. etc. which is great, but then what?
Most will have at least 8-10 years jet time when joining. Another 10 in the ME RHS just seems too long with the prospect of a command back home within a year or two. Some say take your first command regardless of airline or aircraft, others say (where seniority rules) get into your airline of choice. However it might not be everyday a major carrier calls up to offer a job which makes it even harder.
spending the best part of the last 18 months looking at what my friends back in charter and Lo cost have in terms of quality of life, money, pension schemes, promotion opportunities...they are just some of the reasons I'm leaving XX.
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777
Well it sounds like you'd already made your decision to be honest, and absolutely the best of luck to you with your next job, what/wherever it may be. If you only have a short time until upgrade in your current crowd, then ask this if you're really trying to decide whether to come over: will I end up as an unemployed skipper soon, or will I be a skipper in a company, country or town I don't want to be?
Not many people would come over with 2 years to go until command, there is obviously a reason you're thinking about it. As far as getting the quickest command you can get, instead of going where you want to be, my opinion on that has always been that if you end up looking for DEC jobs, where are you likely to be moving to? Here, I suspect. You may also have to go rather further west, as well, by which time I may well have a command here.
I have nothing more to say on the matter of why you should come over here and every word I posted I stand by, you well know the negatives as they are plastered all over this forum, however as I found when I arrived, there are many, many more pilots in Emirates who don't post here, have been around for more than ten years and intend to be here for another ten.
They have their families over here, their children were brought up here, and they (and this is an entirely different story) generally own their own homes, having taken advantage of the crash of 09-11. They don't post on PPRuNe and because you've never met them until you join, having only met the guys who have left and, therefore most likely, haven't got much positivity to spread. Someone told me I was trying to convince myself that I like it, well everyone else sounds exactly the opposite, they are convincing themselves that they hate it. Where is the consistency in that argument?
Don't get me wrong, Dubai has its downsides but there are lots of people who arrive over here who expect to live a life of unprecedented luxury, live in a 5 bed mansion, whose wife expects to just drink cocktails by the pool all day for the rest of her life and who expect to live in exactly the same way as they did back home otherwise, wherever it may have been, just with a bit of sun. They would be wrong about that assumption, again I will say that as far as expat places go, Dubai is up there so salaries and T&C's are dropping across industries, as increased demand makes recruitment easier (not necessarily the case for Dubai Airways at the moment).
But the people who have complained are generally the ones you find screaming at the uninterested desk people in the RTA/DEWA/Etisalat etc, who refuse to just roll their eyes, take a ticket and wait for the 400 people ahead of them to not be particularly well served. You go into these places twice to get stuff done, and you always will do. I've never tried it with kids though so I won't judge those who have.
But I have operated in and out of Milan, Rome etc many times with guys who scream and shout at the dispatcher to try and speed things up...does it work? I had one dispatcher just walk off the aeroplane and wouldn't come back until the skipper apologised. The guys I flew with who just smile, offer them a coffee and have a brief chat generally get away 20 minutes earlier. The same approach applies here. Although you will generally still have to go back...
Yes, as Alconguin Crusader said above, plenty things do cost more over here. What are you going to do about that? However I have to say that with EPC, things do change. A quick look at Chill Factore, Manchester's Indoor Ski Slope (with a 180m slope), says that an all day pass is £50 (about 300Dhs). All day access to Ski Dubai's 400m run is, with EPC, 250Dhs, or £41...there is balance, even for those not in EPC, an all day pass is 275Dhs. You also have more money to spend on things like that, which is the reason prices are higher.
I spent a good while when I arrived complaining about prices but after a while you look around and for many more things, it isn't as bad as a lot of people make out. A big part of the issue is that everyone here (including my wife and I) does more expensive things more often. Back home we went out once a month, here 3 or 4 would be more normal. We go to more events, we have a closer group of friends than one scattered throughout Europe and the time we spend with our family when they come over is more relaxed and more quality than a quick Sunday dinner before piling back home in time for school/work.
I am not a Ski Dubai rep by the way, but I'm not going to go all around Google in order to test cost hypotheses...
I'm not going to pay too much heed to the ridiculous 'you'll know you shouldn't have done it because we told you so'...as I said before, there are plenty of people out here who have exactly my point of view on the matter and they don't usually spend time on PPRuNe, unlike me who has nothing else to do for the next hour or so.
But again, if you don't really want to leave your home country, then don't come out here. It isn't a place to pine for home. Both of us (which is VITALLY important) wanted to leave home and try something new, I left my job at a brilliant national carrier, we have never been bothered about living next to our families, as much as we love them, and we saw it as an opportunity to experience something completely different...but you have to want something completely different in the first place.
Don't make your decision based on everyone here, but if you don't really want to leave your home airline/country/town (and it sounds like that may be the case), or if your wife wants to stay at home, then I would agree with the others, don't bother...but of course if that's the case, then why bother applying over here?
As a footnote, I saw today that Qantas is cutting 5000 jobs today and deferring orders as well. It's a real shame but that's the sort of stuff that is least likely to happen over here, at the end of the day, and when it does happen, it's unlikely to be any time soon. GF had 30 years...how long do you have before you retire?
Well it sounds like you'd already made your decision to be honest, and absolutely the best of luck to you with your next job, what/wherever it may be. If you only have a short time until upgrade in your current crowd, then ask this if you're really trying to decide whether to come over: will I end up as an unemployed skipper soon, or will I be a skipper in a company, country or town I don't want to be?
Not many people would come over with 2 years to go until command, there is obviously a reason you're thinking about it. As far as getting the quickest command you can get, instead of going where you want to be, my opinion on that has always been that if you end up looking for DEC jobs, where are you likely to be moving to? Here, I suspect. You may also have to go rather further west, as well, by which time I may well have a command here.
I have nothing more to say on the matter of why you should come over here and every word I posted I stand by, you well know the negatives as they are plastered all over this forum, however as I found when I arrived, there are many, many more pilots in Emirates who don't post here, have been around for more than ten years and intend to be here for another ten.
They have their families over here, their children were brought up here, and they (and this is an entirely different story) generally own their own homes, having taken advantage of the crash of 09-11. They don't post on PPRuNe and because you've never met them until you join, having only met the guys who have left and, therefore most likely, haven't got much positivity to spread. Someone told me I was trying to convince myself that I like it, well everyone else sounds exactly the opposite, they are convincing themselves that they hate it. Where is the consistency in that argument?
Don't get me wrong, Dubai has its downsides but there are lots of people who arrive over here who expect to live a life of unprecedented luxury, live in a 5 bed mansion, whose wife expects to just drink cocktails by the pool all day for the rest of her life and who expect to live in exactly the same way as they did back home otherwise, wherever it may have been, just with a bit of sun. They would be wrong about that assumption, again I will say that as far as expat places go, Dubai is up there so salaries and T&C's are dropping across industries, as increased demand makes recruitment easier (not necessarily the case for Dubai Airways at the moment).
But the people who have complained are generally the ones you find screaming at the uninterested desk people in the RTA/DEWA/Etisalat etc, who refuse to just roll their eyes, take a ticket and wait for the 400 people ahead of them to not be particularly well served. You go into these places twice to get stuff done, and you always will do. I've never tried it with kids though so I won't judge those who have.
But I have operated in and out of Milan, Rome etc many times with guys who scream and shout at the dispatcher to try and speed things up...does it work? I had one dispatcher just walk off the aeroplane and wouldn't come back until the skipper apologised. The guys I flew with who just smile, offer them a coffee and have a brief chat generally get away 20 minutes earlier. The same approach applies here. Although you will generally still have to go back...
Yes, as Alconguin Crusader said above, plenty things do cost more over here. What are you going to do about that? However I have to say that with EPC, things do change. A quick look at Chill Factore, Manchester's Indoor Ski Slope (with a 180m slope), says that an all day pass is £50 (about 300Dhs). All day access to Ski Dubai's 400m run is, with EPC, 250Dhs, or £41...there is balance, even for those not in EPC, an all day pass is 275Dhs. You also have more money to spend on things like that, which is the reason prices are higher.
I spent a good while when I arrived complaining about prices but after a while you look around and for many more things, it isn't as bad as a lot of people make out. A big part of the issue is that everyone here (including my wife and I) does more expensive things more often. Back home we went out once a month, here 3 or 4 would be more normal. We go to more events, we have a closer group of friends than one scattered throughout Europe and the time we spend with our family when they come over is more relaxed and more quality than a quick Sunday dinner before piling back home in time for school/work.
I am not a Ski Dubai rep by the way, but I'm not going to go all around Google in order to test cost hypotheses...
I'm not going to pay too much heed to the ridiculous 'you'll know you shouldn't have done it because we told you so'...as I said before, there are plenty of people out here who have exactly my point of view on the matter and they don't usually spend time on PPRuNe, unlike me who has nothing else to do for the next hour or so.
But again, if you don't really want to leave your home country, then don't come out here. It isn't a place to pine for home. Both of us (which is VITALLY important) wanted to leave home and try something new, I left my job at a brilliant national carrier, we have never been bothered about living next to our families, as much as we love them, and we saw it as an opportunity to experience something completely different...but you have to want something completely different in the first place.
Don't make your decision based on everyone here, but if you don't really want to leave your home airline/country/town (and it sounds like that may be the case), or if your wife wants to stay at home, then I would agree with the others, don't bother...but of course if that's the case, then why bother applying over here?
As a footnote, I saw today that Qantas is cutting 5000 jobs today and deferring orders as well. It's a real shame but that's the sort of stuff that is least likely to happen over here, at the end of the day, and when it does happen, it's unlikely to be any time soon. GF had 30 years...how long do you have before you retire?
Last edited by thehonourablefong; 27th Feb 2014 at 05:54.
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Fong
The only reason why western commercial airlines are suffering is the unfair competition of ME carrier. A tad to easy to compete when de facto you are operating in social framework comparable to that of the Middle Age. If EK had to pay real pensions, maternity leaves, to accept collective bargaining and pay ground personnel salaries instead of exploiting them for peanuts and pay taxes like in real countries and unlike the kingdom of shallowness it would fail tomorrow. I personally don't know anyone in EK that joined for other reason than being unemployed. It works.. they crush other airlines with slavery and take their pilot. Still it is time to start questioning this system . Is creating unemployment and is threatening the social system in Europe a social system that is an example for the rest of the world. Unfortunately there are self servant individuals like you, extremist tea- party idiots that cannot even conceive what is right or what is wrong only what is good for them in material terms. So I always invite all my friends to fly Lufthansa Air France BA Qantas any airline that comes form the first world ..and stay away from ME airline. A few euro can make a lot of difference.
Last edited by bob777; 2nd Mar 2014 at 11:03.
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Wake up time.
Dear bob777, I don't know which plant you are in?
Europe aviation industry was in the down turn way before the ME airline started to use western talented management,Pilots, Engineers, and give them the money and the power to do what they couldn't do back home.
The union did their part, and shot themselves in the foot through their intransigent demands.
Now, if you ask me is it my first choice the simple answer is NO, but to blame it all on the ME carriers is pushing it too far! Have you forgotten something, what about the financial melt down, was that also caused by the dark invaders of the middle east? And what about the European low cost which has driven T&C to a new low which become unacceptable to any professional pilot? I don't see you saying lets not fly with them !!! What about the new cadet pilots slavery in the European low cost carriers, or are you a supporter of P2F?
The soon you land in plant earth, and recognise the reality of the aviation world the better.
The future of the airline industry, will be for the one who can keep a head of the computation by offering better aircraft , service, and prices, and look after its work force.
Finally( The Aviation Jihad will face new crusaders), is rather a sad statement considering the crusaders lost the final battle !
I do hope that you are a better reader of instrument than History.
Europe aviation industry was in the down turn way before the ME airline started to use western talented management,Pilots, Engineers, and give them the money and the power to do what they couldn't do back home.
The union did their part, and shot themselves in the foot through their intransigent demands.
Now, if you ask me is it my first choice the simple answer is NO, but to blame it all on the ME carriers is pushing it too far! Have you forgotten something, what about the financial melt down, was that also caused by the dark invaders of the middle east? And what about the European low cost which has driven T&C to a new low which become unacceptable to any professional pilot? I don't see you saying lets not fly with them !!! What about the new cadet pilots slavery in the European low cost carriers, or are you a supporter of P2F?
The soon you land in plant earth, and recognise the reality of the aviation world the better.
The future of the airline industry, will be for the one who can keep a head of the computation by offering better aircraft , service, and prices, and look after its work force.
Finally( The Aviation Jihad will face new crusaders), is rather a sad statement considering the crusaders lost the final battle !
I do hope that you are a better reader of instrument than History.
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Well now. Aren't some people easily pleased? A Cayenne and a bit of sunshine seems little reward for tolerating the raging bullish!t inherent in being an educated westerner living in a poor facsimile of a civilised society. In my brief sojourn in the ME the happiest (smuggest?) people seemed to be those who couldn't quite believe the 'lifestyle' they had attained (SUV, maid, brunches, swimming pool, assorted tat) and were happy to be compliant in the face of some ludicrous affronts to the dignity and self-respect of anyone not of local origin.
If you are happy to live a pampered and easy life, don't enjoy anything remotely connected with culture or countryside and prepared to be treated as a second class citizen, then give it a go. Even more so if you enjoy being in the company of other like-minded shallow materialists. Most of the guys I worked with gave the distinct impression of being trapped. Some were honest enough to admit it, the others went to great lengths to persuade themselves how much better off they were for having taken the leap.
I'm glad to have had the experience of a couple of years of EK / Dubai froth but am happy and relieved to now be doing more interesting flying in civilisation. Personally, I would prefer to live in a country with a bit of rain now and again (that's why there is stuff like grass and trees) and which does not rely on institutionalised servitude to bolster my lifestyle.
Whether it's worth giving up a viable career to try the ME is high stakes stuff. If you do decide to give it a go, don't forget to take your blinkers or you might accidentally see outside your little ex-pat bubble and see something distasteful.
If you are happy to live a pampered and easy life, don't enjoy anything remotely connected with culture or countryside and prepared to be treated as a second class citizen, then give it a go. Even more so if you enjoy being in the company of other like-minded shallow materialists. Most of the guys I worked with gave the distinct impression of being trapped. Some were honest enough to admit it, the others went to great lengths to persuade themselves how much better off they were for having taken the leap.
I'm glad to have had the experience of a couple of years of EK / Dubai froth but am happy and relieved to now be doing more interesting flying in civilisation. Personally, I would prefer to live in a country with a bit of rain now and again (that's why there is stuff like grass and trees) and which does not rely on institutionalised servitude to bolster my lifestyle.
Whether it's worth giving up a viable career to try the ME is high stakes stuff. If you do decide to give it a go, don't forget to take your blinkers or you might accidentally see outside your little ex-pat bubble and see something distasteful.
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Interesting...
An interesting thread.
As a non pilot, but with family out in Dubai with EK, and having myself been born and brought up in a British Crown Colony with ex-pat parents and a servant to help bring up me and my sister, I have to say that "you gets what you pay (or are paid) for.." My parents returned to the UK, and I stayed in the UK after my education finished, even though I had a ready made professional job "out East".
There doesn't seem to me to be any point in going out to "the sandpit" and moaning about the heat - if you want "perfect"...go to Tahiti (and it even rains and thunderstorms there, so I'm told!).
Human rights issues are of course relevant, but not going there doesn't help to improve the situation - it just gives someone else the chance to take your place in the queue for a job...and Adolf Hucker - you don't have to treat people the way they are generally treated...it's entirely up to you. Go there and show those who don't treat people well, how they should treat them.
Take it for what it is - a chance to experience new things, fly different planes, go to new destinations, make some money, and get a new circle of friends. My relation and his wife are perfectly happy from what I can see, and are looking forward to bringing up their family there - good schools, opportunities all round and funding to enjoy it.
I think it is disingenuous to criticise someone just because they happen to like something you don't..but maybe (just as in my job) you get more disillusioned the older you get..!
I agree - it's probably not perfect, and it's not a "forever" place, but where is..??
If you don't try it, you'll never know...but if you do try it, do it with an open mind, I say, and you might even like it.
Good luck bob777...whatever you decide!
As a non pilot, but with family out in Dubai with EK, and having myself been born and brought up in a British Crown Colony with ex-pat parents and a servant to help bring up me and my sister, I have to say that "you gets what you pay (or are paid) for.." My parents returned to the UK, and I stayed in the UK after my education finished, even though I had a ready made professional job "out East".
There doesn't seem to me to be any point in going out to "the sandpit" and moaning about the heat - if you want "perfect"...go to Tahiti (and it even rains and thunderstorms there, so I'm told!).
Human rights issues are of course relevant, but not going there doesn't help to improve the situation - it just gives someone else the chance to take your place in the queue for a job...and Adolf Hucker - you don't have to treat people the way they are generally treated...it's entirely up to you. Go there and show those who don't treat people well, how they should treat them.
Take it for what it is - a chance to experience new things, fly different planes, go to new destinations, make some money, and get a new circle of friends. My relation and his wife are perfectly happy from what I can see, and are looking forward to bringing up their family there - good schools, opportunities all round and funding to enjoy it.
I think it is disingenuous to criticise someone just because they happen to like something you don't..but maybe (just as in my job) you get more disillusioned the older you get..!
I agree - it's probably not perfect, and it's not a "forever" place, but where is..??
If you don't try it, you'll never know...but if you do try it, do it with an open mind, I say, and you might even like it.
Good luck bob777...whatever you decide!
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Outside looking in.
I come to Dubai with another airline 2-3 times a year. I get to BBQ with my EK friends when I am here. This is what I have observed over the past 8 year I have been BBQing with my EK buddies. When they first arrived they were very happy they got excellent bonus checks, the work hours were reasonable, and upgrade was fairly swift. The attitude of these pilots has changed dramatically over the years, particularly the last few months. They all agree they made more money as FO's there first year here than they do as captains now. (Realized, and adjusted for cost of living, and they all have kids.) I have also noted, what fleet you are on makes a huge difference to your quality of life. Small bus guys are turn around kings with 8-9 days off a month. (Yes, I did see the schedules.) One of my buddies had not been out of the Middle East or India for 5 months. 777 guys get 50% more days off with about 10-35% of their time in the rack. This being said, they are flying max hours as opposed to max days on like the 330/340 guys. They all fly on the back of the clock more in two months than I do all year. Life at EK now looks much like life at Qatar 6 years ago. Life at Qatar, now is where I expect to see EK in 4-5 years. All my friends moved from far abroad and noted that it took about 2 years to become neutral on the cost of moving, selling cars and houses etc. This is with kids and moving into a villa. So if you have kids 5-7 years is reasonable amount of time you would need to spend at EK to make this move worth your while. I would also look at the current FO $ and assume that will be your Captain pay in 7 years. People talk of things improving globally, but I do not see that happening here. I think we are moving into a "gun for hire" 3 year contract world. My honest opinion is if you are young and single, and have no hope of command at your current airline than EK is an option. If you have kids I would not go to EK as FO's with kids appear to be struggling with the package vs. the cost of living. EK is no longer a career airline, it was, but outside looking in they are continuing on a downward slide as far as how they treat their pilots. Just ask an Airbus guy who was forced to take 25 plus days of worthless vacation. I hope this helps. Again this is my POV.
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No, 120feet.
It's pretty much the naked truth.
I know not one of the contributors of another thread (where they complain about their application is not duly considered) will believe you. At least not now.
But it helps the undecided.
One thing is for sure: Many remain stuck, wether they like it or not, wether they had anticipated or not, they came here with kids and they have to stay. Unless they can afford to lose a big chunk of money. Emirates knows and counts on it, otherwise the attrition would be dramatically higher. So the whole question of leaving and the ominous "if you don't like it, leave" is very much futile.
If you come, make the best of it, if in slightest doubt, don't come. The way back is exponentially more difficult.
It's pretty much the naked truth.
I know not one of the contributors of another thread (where they complain about their application is not duly considered) will believe you. At least not now.
But it helps the undecided.
One thing is for sure: Many remain stuck, wether they like it or not, wether they had anticipated or not, they came here with kids and they have to stay. Unless they can afford to lose a big chunk of money. Emirates knows and counts on it, otherwise the attrition would be dramatically higher. So the whole question of leaving and the ominous "if you don't like it, leave" is very much futile.
If you come, make the best of it, if in slightest doubt, don't come. The way back is exponentially more difficult.
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Fong
Good, well balanced posts.
The bottom line is when you come to the sandpit you have to accept that you are nothing more than a cost base on some bean counters ledger sheet. Nothing more, nothing less. The company doesn't care what you think about their policies in any form or way. They do what they do, whether you like it or not(mostly not). Be it DEC's, no bonus, pay rise etc.
Pick the battles you can win and ignore all the rest of the things you have no control over. The only one getting angry, wound up etc is you. Ignore the rumors, bitching, whining etc and get on with living your life. Only you have the choice whether to make it work or not. If you came here with your blinkers on (all you ever want or need to know about the job is on prune - in between the country bashing, Boeing v airbus drivel etc) then it's your own fault.
Think about where you came from. Are you better off now? If not and you're desperately unhappy then vote with your feet. Sound familiar?
Otherwise, go to work, get the job done then turn your phone off and spend what off time you have with your family, or if single there's enough to keep busy with.
Traffic here is getting worse. But then I spent my life in traffic back home too.
The DEC thing. Live with it, it's always been there and always will. Is it fair on the guys here - absolutely not. I don't like the policy any more than the next guy. But when you leave here are you going to go back to being an FO at Korean! China Southern etc? Or are you going as a DEC? How do the FO's there feel about it?
Live your life on your terms. Nobody is entitled to anything, especially here.
I've been here more than 10 years and am still very happy with my decision to come. My kids have both done schooling here and the life that they lived in Dubai from a social, educational, cultural exposure pov is the biggest gift I could ever have given them.
Does it mean that there were not challenges? No. Is everything just dandy and tickets boo? Absolutely not! Do I like the fact that our rosters are constantly tampered with, manual insertions day before leave etc, absolutely not!
There is no Utopia out there gents.....just your own reality. Ask the guys who've been to Korean, Turkish etc and come back. This job has many challenges but it's far from the worst gig out there.
Life is about choices. Only you can make them based on your own personal circumstances. Nobody has the right to criticize anybody else's choices. Walk in their shoes first. Everyone is here for different reasons and everyone's dreams, wants, needs etc are different and personal. Respect their right to their choices as much as they should respect yours.
Good luck with all your choices, whatever they may be.
I'll put on my flak jacket now.....
Good, well balanced posts.
The bottom line is when you come to the sandpit you have to accept that you are nothing more than a cost base on some bean counters ledger sheet. Nothing more, nothing less. The company doesn't care what you think about their policies in any form or way. They do what they do, whether you like it or not(mostly not). Be it DEC's, no bonus, pay rise etc.
Pick the battles you can win and ignore all the rest of the things you have no control over. The only one getting angry, wound up etc is you. Ignore the rumors, bitching, whining etc and get on with living your life. Only you have the choice whether to make it work or not. If you came here with your blinkers on (all you ever want or need to know about the job is on prune - in between the country bashing, Boeing v airbus drivel etc) then it's your own fault.
Think about where you came from. Are you better off now? If not and you're desperately unhappy then vote with your feet. Sound familiar?
Otherwise, go to work, get the job done then turn your phone off and spend what off time you have with your family, or if single there's enough to keep busy with.
Traffic here is getting worse. But then I spent my life in traffic back home too.
The DEC thing. Live with it, it's always been there and always will. Is it fair on the guys here - absolutely not. I don't like the policy any more than the next guy. But when you leave here are you going to go back to being an FO at Korean! China Southern etc? Or are you going as a DEC? How do the FO's there feel about it?
Live your life on your terms. Nobody is entitled to anything, especially here.
I've been here more than 10 years and am still very happy with my decision to come. My kids have both done schooling here and the life that they lived in Dubai from a social, educational, cultural exposure pov is the biggest gift I could ever have given them.
Does it mean that there were not challenges? No. Is everything just dandy and tickets boo? Absolutely not! Do I like the fact that our rosters are constantly tampered with, manual insertions day before leave etc, absolutely not!
There is no Utopia out there gents.....just your own reality. Ask the guys who've been to Korean, Turkish etc and come back. This job has many challenges but it's far from the worst gig out there.
Life is about choices. Only you can make them based on your own personal circumstances. Nobody has the right to criticize anybody else's choices. Walk in their shoes first. Everyone is here for different reasons and everyone's dreams, wants, needs etc are different and personal. Respect their right to their choices as much as they should respect yours.
Good luck with all your choices, whatever they may be.
I'll put on my flak jacket now.....
Last edited by jumbo1; 28th Feb 2014 at 14:13.
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http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/53...-national.html The link above is to another very recent thread on the same topic.
I have recently faced the dilemma of going to UAE or staying at home and taking a command. I want the Dubai lifestyle and the long haul operation but financially as an expat I expect to be paid a significant premium for leaving my current life. however when I crunch the numbers the extra earning potential once offered by the UAE carriers is no longer obvious.
While crunching numbers for such a move a ten year plan is a reasonable point to start with. 4 years ago you could plan to live a good life saving a little money month to month but then pocketing a nice bonus. Saving was easy. Now however we must now assume at least an extra 2 or 3 years on an FO salary and it seems no bonus.
There appears to be the constant management squeeze on Pilots, it is taking place almost all over the world and UAE is no exception. Recently some of the threads on the pprune UAE forum read exactly like REPAweb.org the Ryr Pilot forum. Inflation is rising but the package on offer is not. Costs like school and accommodation allowances are rising but there is absolutely no sign on this forum that the UAE carriers will start to improve their package in line with the economic environment in Dubai. All this represents a dent in saving potential which gets worse on an annual basis. Over 10 years this adds up significantly. On top of the maths according to the forum it sounds like perks like roster bidding, annual leave and staff travel are not like they used to be, not a deal breaker but if things are not working out these are the things which make the difference between bearable and unbearable.
I do think there is money to be made with the UAE carriers however the margin versus what many of us can make in Europe is not what it was and as a result the decision is no where near clearcut anymore. I suspect the large easterly flow of Pilots from the likes of Ryr may be reduced due to the alternative offered by Norwegian who are currently recruiting in large numbers for both short and long haul ops. If the European flow of Pilots into UAE is reduced will UAE have enough supply of quantity and quality from other regions to care? If the answer is yes I can not see any reason the UAE packages would start to improve in line with inflation, rent and school costs. Even if the flow is reduced UAE carriers can still lower their entry requirements if they want to avoid improving the package.
All the above is just my opinion of course based on research directly from Pilots not on forums. I hope I am wrong. I hope the bonus returns and the package improves to recognise inflation, school fees and rent costs. If it does the decision to leave a stable European job will be easy again, as I feel it needs to be to leave your home.
Of course everyone has a different aim and for some to earn just 1 Dirham more will be enough to make the jump.
I have recently faced the dilemma of going to UAE or staying at home and taking a command. I want the Dubai lifestyle and the long haul operation but financially as an expat I expect to be paid a significant premium for leaving my current life. however when I crunch the numbers the extra earning potential once offered by the UAE carriers is no longer obvious.
While crunching numbers for such a move a ten year plan is a reasonable point to start with. 4 years ago you could plan to live a good life saving a little money month to month but then pocketing a nice bonus. Saving was easy. Now however we must now assume at least an extra 2 or 3 years on an FO salary and it seems no bonus.
There appears to be the constant management squeeze on Pilots, it is taking place almost all over the world and UAE is no exception. Recently some of the threads on the pprune UAE forum read exactly like REPAweb.org the Ryr Pilot forum. Inflation is rising but the package on offer is not. Costs like school and accommodation allowances are rising but there is absolutely no sign on this forum that the UAE carriers will start to improve their package in line with the economic environment in Dubai. All this represents a dent in saving potential which gets worse on an annual basis. Over 10 years this adds up significantly. On top of the maths according to the forum it sounds like perks like roster bidding, annual leave and staff travel are not like they used to be, not a deal breaker but if things are not working out these are the things which make the difference between bearable and unbearable.
I do think there is money to be made with the UAE carriers however the margin versus what many of us can make in Europe is not what it was and as a result the decision is no where near clearcut anymore. I suspect the large easterly flow of Pilots from the likes of Ryr may be reduced due to the alternative offered by Norwegian who are currently recruiting in large numbers for both short and long haul ops. If the European flow of Pilots into UAE is reduced will UAE have enough supply of quantity and quality from other regions to care? If the answer is yes I can not see any reason the UAE packages would start to improve in line with inflation, rent and school costs. Even if the flow is reduced UAE carriers can still lower their entry requirements if they want to avoid improving the package.
All the above is just my opinion of course based on research directly from Pilots not on forums. I hope I am wrong. I hope the bonus returns and the package improves to recognise inflation, school fees and rent costs. If it does the decision to leave a stable European job will be easy again, as I feel it needs to be to leave your home.
Of course everyone has a different aim and for some to earn just 1 Dirham more will be enough to make the jump.
Last edited by Widebdy; 28th Feb 2014 at 09:17. Reason: typo
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Widebody, if you are comparing Europe low cost with EK then you need to revisit your calculations. If you think you are earning more or working less in EU then you are way wrong. The comparison becomes even more divided if you are married with kids. Someone has given you duff info.
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I have reposted this because, without intending to, it was written in a way that directs comments towards sonoma when in fact only a specific paragraph was. I directed at him/her parts of the post that were not intended for him/her.
As sonoma wishes, and as he/she has every right to request, I am happy to apologise for that. Everyone has the right only to be accredited with the things they actually say. The rest is now, I hope, directed quite clearly towards other comments that were made to me by other posters on this thread.
Sorry, sonoma!
=========================================================
You know what? I have just deleted my last post because arguing with people in the 'hate everything, all is death' crowd is a losing battle.
However, I'll close (well, for now, I always enjoy a losing battle) with one last try.
I take offence to being patronised by people for my choices when they decide to take what I write out of proportion:
Sonoma, I assume that seeing as you are so against materialism and sunshine that you are both vitamin D deficient and dressed in whatever you can find in Carrefour? Do you drive an unmaterialistic '98 Fiesta, as I did back home? I doubt it. In your home country, do you also accuse people of being materialistic if they drive a nice car and have nice stuff that they worked hard for? Or does that only apply here?
How self righteous for someone to tell me to 'think outside the box' - do the same yourself then!
Sonoma, I look forward to your posts in the future when you are back home worrying about your pension, your mortgage, the kids' school fees, complaining that taxes are going up again, that your company is looking to downsize and that your name is in the red zone etcetc.
As for the numerous other people who have taken it upon themselves solely to rip my initial post to pieces, without taking the time to give a similarly in-depth reasoning for the 'don't come out here' vote:
I have never been employed by RYR by the way, as some people seem to think...I mentioned in one of the posts I made (that would have drawn you to that conclusion), I was in a heavily unionised, profitable airline (that doesn't need or ask for handouts from local authorities) before I came here.
How often do the people who take such deep offence to the way of life in Dubai give to the labourer's charities? How many one-way tickets home have you bought for those labourers who have been stuck out here after their employers have gone bust and been put in jail (opens the way for the slavery rant again)?
AH, 'culture and the countryside'?! I assume, then, that back at home you went to the opera all the time then? Or the ballet? I, like most people, do not spend a lot of time doing cultural things on my days off much as I didn't in Europe, as with everyone I know (but what do I know? My friends and I are materialistic heathens who drive enormous cars, driving them at great speed, throwing small animals out of the window at the labourers and going to brunch every Friday while the negative crowd drive their modest, cheap car to the labour camp to distribute food, drinks, sanitary supplies, copies of the Quran whose views they respect, and of course cash to the poor unfortunates who need them most).
When I go travelling I get my fill of 'culture' if I want to. In fact, with both of us working here (imagine that! The disgrace that having moved out here my wife doesn't sit in Costa all day drinking coffee and shopping for shoes, when I was promised that she would have her own man to waft a palm leaf to keep her cool before I joined!) I can see a damn sight more culture than I ever would have back in my old crowd. Countryside? I can get to Europe for green grass in 6 hours and to India, if I so wish, in 4. I can also get into the mountains in the northern UAE and Oman in less time. If you can't get over the fact that there aren't any trees and deer then I can't really help you, unless you were led to believe that the great jungle wilds of Dubai were close by when you joined.
Maybe you need to find some new friends if you can't find anyone who has any depth or strength of character. In fact, it must be terrible for you, because seeing as everyone here is a smug, gold-digging (shallow materialists) racist* except for you, you must not actually have any friends.
*
But of course, if it's perfect in your home countries, you won't care about making such vacuous friends here in this hell hole because back home, everyone is equal and free to do everything, which is probably why crime rates are through the roof and why, when you eventually head home, all the nice stuff you bought over here (or will you have given that all to the needy?) has been dragged through a window by someone who wants to sell it for a gramme of crack. If you want to look at stats as a friendly reminder, knock yourself out:
Police.uk
FBI ? Uniform Crime Reporting
And to pre-empt the argument that crime stats aren't released here, here's what America says about crime in, specifically, Dubai:
https://www.osac.gov/pages/ContentRe...aspx?cid=15084
Then maybe have a look at:
https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-ad...y-and-security
and perhaps compare it to the advice issued for other countries, the US included.
And as for
, AH,
Perhaps when you banged on about how awful it was here, the people who disagreed ACTUALLY liked it here, did that ever occur to you, or does everybody have to think the same way, as your namesake was so eager to encourage?
I'd say that when you came out here, you decided to bring your own set of blinkers, as everyone does...and I don't have a Cayenne, by the way...
Everyone has blinkers everywhere they go, be it at home or abroad. Don't hurl abuse at people who haven't, in fact, said life here is perfect at any point (example for those who disagree please), but who mention the rarely-mentioned positives about being here. And the person who is is, ironically, on the short haul fleet...
As sonoma wishes, and as he/she has every right to request, I am happy to apologise for that. Everyone has the right only to be accredited with the things they actually say. The rest is now, I hope, directed quite clearly towards other comments that were made to me by other posters on this thread.
Sorry, sonoma!
=========================================================
You know what? I have just deleted my last post because arguing with people in the 'hate everything, all is death' crowd is a losing battle.
However, I'll close (well, for now, I always enjoy a losing battle) with one last try.
I take offence to being patronised by people for my choices when they decide to take what I write out of proportion:
Sonoma, I assume that seeing as you are so against materialism and sunshine that you are both vitamin D deficient and dressed in whatever you can find in Carrefour? Do you drive an unmaterialistic '98 Fiesta, as I did back home? I doubt it. In your home country, do you also accuse people of being materialistic if they drive a nice car and have nice stuff that they worked hard for? Or does that only apply here?
How self righteous for someone to tell me to 'think outside the box' - do the same yourself then!
Sonoma, I look forward to your posts in the future when you are back home worrying about your pension, your mortgage, the kids' school fees, complaining that taxes are going up again, that your company is looking to downsize and that your name is in the red zone etcetc.
As for the numerous other people who have taken it upon themselves solely to rip my initial post to pieces, without taking the time to give a similarly in-depth reasoning for the 'don't come out here' vote:
I have never been employed by RYR by the way, as some people seem to think...I mentioned in one of the posts I made (that would have drawn you to that conclusion), I was in a heavily unionised, profitable airline (that doesn't need or ask for handouts from local authorities) before I came here.
How often do the people who take such deep offence to the way of life in Dubai give to the labourer's charities? How many one-way tickets home have you bought for those labourers who have been stuck out here after their employers have gone bust and been put in jail (opens the way for the slavery rant again)?
AH, 'culture and the countryside'?! I assume, then, that back at home you went to the opera all the time then? Or the ballet? I, like most people, do not spend a lot of time doing cultural things on my days off much as I didn't in Europe, as with everyone I know (but what do I know? My friends and I are materialistic heathens who drive enormous cars, driving them at great speed, throwing small animals out of the window at the labourers and going to brunch every Friday while the negative crowd drive their modest, cheap car to the labour camp to distribute food, drinks, sanitary supplies, copies of the Quran whose views they respect, and of course cash to the poor unfortunates who need them most).
When I go travelling I get my fill of 'culture' if I want to. In fact, with both of us working here (imagine that! The disgrace that having moved out here my wife doesn't sit in Costa all day drinking coffee and shopping for shoes, when I was promised that she would have her own man to waft a palm leaf to keep her cool before I joined!) I can see a damn sight more culture than I ever would have back in my old crowd. Countryside? I can get to Europe for green grass in 6 hours and to India, if I so wish, in 4. I can also get into the mountains in the northern UAE and Oman in less time. If you can't get over the fact that there aren't any trees and deer then I can't really help you, unless you were led to believe that the great jungle wilds of Dubai were close by when you joined.
Even more so if you enjoy being in the company of other like-minded shallow materialists
*
...were happy to be compliant in the face of some ludicrous affronts to the dignity and self-respect of anyone not of local origin
Police.uk
FBI ? Uniform Crime Reporting
And to pre-empt the argument that crime stats aren't released here, here's what America says about crime in, specifically, Dubai:
https://www.osac.gov/pages/ContentRe...aspx?cid=15084
Then maybe have a look at:
https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-ad...y-and-security
and perhaps compare it to the advice issued for other countries, the US included.
And as for
Some were honest enough to admit it, the others went to great lengths to persuade themselves how much better off they were for having taken the leap.
Perhaps when you banged on about how awful it was here, the people who disagreed ACTUALLY liked it here, did that ever occur to you, or does everybody have to think the same way, as your namesake was so eager to encourage?
I'd say that when you came out here, you decided to bring your own set of blinkers, as everyone does...and I don't have a Cayenne, by the way...
Everyone has blinkers everywhere they go, be it at home or abroad. Don't hurl abuse at people who haven't, in fact, said life here is perfect at any point (example for those who disagree please), but who mention the rarely-mentioned positives about being here. And the person who is is, ironically, on the short haul fleet...
Last edited by thehonourablefong; 28th Feb 2014 at 13:56.
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Regarding inflation in the UAE, there is a perception that if you only eat out monthly not weekly you should be somewhat protected. When I visited, the discount card brought it down to something sensible (not too bad when paying for just yourself). Otherwise yes it was expensive, in particular alcohol.
Certain groceries/household items seemed twice or three times as expensive as in Europe (toilet roll, potatoes!). Other daily stuff - coffee in malls, lunch, seemed exact same price at EU for now. Internet in EU is about 25 euro a month, I heard its over 100Euro there.
I guess buying a new car is tax free, saving a fortune on EU prices, and interest free, using their car loan facility. Or just get by on cheap taxis for first couple of years (one less debt to clear if needs be).
Any examples of extreme ongoing inflation to be aware for budgeting? Things you didn't budget for before going out there? At some stage rising inflation will cancel out the tax free gains... dont think its there just yet?
Certain groceries/household items seemed twice or three times as expensive as in Europe (toilet roll, potatoes!). Other daily stuff - coffee in malls, lunch, seemed exact same price at EU for now. Internet in EU is about 25 euro a month, I heard its over 100Euro there.
I guess buying a new car is tax free, saving a fortune on EU prices, and interest free, using their car loan facility. Or just get by on cheap taxis for first couple of years (one less debt to clear if needs be).
Any examples of extreme ongoing inflation to be aware for budgeting? Things you didn't budget for before going out there? At some stage rising inflation will cancel out the tax free gains... dont think its there just yet?
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Vfenext can you elaborate? I am not sure if we have understood each others comments. I said i think you will earn more in the UAE? Especially if you stay well over 10 years. But the decision is not as straight forward anymore from a financial point of view. If one has say 2 kids the cost of schooling in UAE is going to eat up some of your "disposable income/savings". For many people going to UAE is about leaving UAE at some point with a very good lump sum. EK have a provident fund which helps but not all the carriers have this. I know many Pilots who would have gone to EK to escape Ryr are now very happy Norwegian is an option to avoid the sandpit. EK was more attractive 3 years ago with quick command and what many would regard as a "large" bonus.
There's a big difference for a joining F/O and how far the pay goes in, wife at work in Dubai and no kids, and wife not at work and 3 kids.
I think Fong is in the first group.
I think Fong is in the first group.