Middle East or stay at home ?

[777X]

Many of my former colleagues had been 'forced' to the ME around 2009 to 2011 when airlines in Europe started failing at a significant rate. Large numbers went to Qatar and EK and stayed in gainful employment. I've yet to see any from this era return home... Addicted to the forbidden fruit of tax free cash perhaps.

However in the last two years I can only think of a couple of guys who have left good jobs; one wanted to fly LH (missed out on Virgin and ba) and the other always wanted to fly for EK since birth, despite never having been out there! They always seemed very positive over the phone but when I recently visited, well one was talking about giving it another 12 months! Ok, so it's not for everyone.

There seems only one reason to go to the ME at the moment - cash! For a single FO with no dependants or debt, the tax free pay is effectively all beer money. Together with provided accommodation, disposable income can be three times higher than back home. However fast commands, for Boeing at least, are a thing of the past. I read somewhere all T7 upgrades cancelled for this year? I'm guessing many joining now may never see out a command there as 8-10 years (summers!) is perhaps short for some airlines but a lifetime in the sandpit. QOL? The list of negatives is endless on this forum so I won't repeat them here.

T&C at some carriers I know in Europe are improving greatly whilst things slide at the big three. A jet FO joining my airline today will be on £55k basic after a year on short haul (not a legacy airline) whilst the starting pay at one of the big three is circ £50k for wide body long haul working maximum hours around the clock. The net pay is 1.5k more a month in the sandpit, plus accommodation. Of course if you can get a quick command in Europe (possible at my airline) there is little difference in pay.

My question is therefore - is it still worth leaving a permanent job back home in a reasonably stable airline for a job in the Middle East, and if so, for what? Has anyone done just that and lived to regret it, then not been able to get back home? (Expat for life, getting further and further from home with each job change!). Many say if you have a good passport and reasonable job just don't bother.

T7X

[aussiefarmer]

Hello mate,

I will try and be honest and neutral here. I can only speak for EK.
Gave up a command to come here as an FO. I was talking to a colleague the other day that did likewise. He was saying that had he known what the reality was here he wouldn't have come.

As you say, money-wise is a no brainer. You WILL get transferred more cash to your account at the end of every month and always on time working here. That's the beauty of it, total job security (unless you screw up, then you will be "resigned" as we say here) and a very decent pay and allowances.

Now, in papers it all looked good to make the move when I looked at it a few years back before I left my old airline.

If there's one thing I have learnt in the sandpit is: it's not only about money.

Unfortunately, they think it is, but us who come from developed countries we know is not. I rather live with 2000eur back home than with 5000 here. Why? Because they are worth exactly the same.

Emirates has been very clever eroding the T&Cs "as the business could support" and neglecting to update our pay and allowances while the UAE soaring inflation is averaging just under 20% a year. Even our President admitted that on a missive not that long ago.

As the aviation in the GCC countries expand, there's less and less of the cake to take for each airline. Ok the cake is growing but the number of airlines with huge plans is growing too and there's a limit to this. Example: Emirates has grown considerably in size in the last 3 years but is struggling to make the profit that was making 3 years ago.

Talking about upgrades, there's all sort of theories around PPrune. You can either believe or not. But there's one truth: seniority means nothing. EK fleet transfers (now for the airbus guys to the 380 and in the past) have created a situation in which people 6-7 years in the airline are still to get their upgrade chance whilst people 3.5 years in the airline are getting their command interviews.

If you ask me, a new joiner on either fleet will be looking at 8-10 years for command. Think that EK needs to have a pilot workforce of about 6000 pilots (against 3500 today) before this person gets a chance (taking into account high attrition rates like they have at the moment).

So to answer your question, would I leave my developed country legacy or no legacy pilot job for coming here? No, definitely not for the experience and definitely not for the thrill. I would do it for money, maybe, but taking a huge commitment to save as much as possible with plans to bail out in the middle-term and knowing that my lifestyle is gonna receive a big hit (with the prices as they are in Dubai).

I hope I am wrong, but I just don't see things getting better here for us. I believe we should be happy if they stay the way they are. And the reason is simple: the business is having difficulties to be as profitable as what it used to be. The 12-week bonus times are gone. I think we will keep our jobs but we will be struggling just like everyone else does. And fighting with a soaring inflation. And for that, I rather do it in my green, relatively fair, developed, educated, legislated country.

[Al Murdoch]

My advice would be to talk to your friends in the Middle East. Don't take advice from these message boards - there is a huge amount of (often) unwarranted negativity and guesswork. Be careful of assuming that what is posted here is accurate.

[Dirigible]

If you want to take advice from these forums, just use the search function. This subject has been done to death

[Capt. Flamingo]

You answered yourself already in your post.

Good luck with the decision

[thehonourablefong]

Well, seeing as I'm on a day off and all the washing up's been done...

Many of my former colleagues had been 'forced' to the ME around 2009 to 2011 when airlines in Europe started failing at a significant rate. Large numbers went to Qatar and EK and stayed in gainful employment. I've yet to see any from this era return home... Addicted to the forbidden fruit of tax free cash perhaps.

Well 777, it depends entirely on your point of view.

Some people come over to Dubai, Abu Dhabi or Doha (okay, most people in Doha it seems) and having decided that they a) were forced against their will to come over or b) will only spend 3 or 5 years here, spend their entire time over here looking at the negatives and completely ignoring the positives, in order to ensure they don't regret leaving. Those who were ‘forced’ to come over probably applied because these 3 are the best of what’s out there for expats. I know plenty of people who were furloughed or lost their jobs and have now resigned from their 'home' carrier, preferring to stay out here than go back home to sit in the RHS of a 737 doing 4 sector days, eating crusty sandwiches that they probably made themselves and trudging back to the office car park to drive their 2004 Fiesta back home.

However in the last two years I can only think of a couple of guys who have left good jobs; one wanted to fly LH (missed out on Virgin and ba) and the other always wanted to fly for EK since birth, despite never having been out there! They always seemed very positive over the phone but when I recently visited, well one was talking about giving it another 12 months! Ok, so it's not for everyone.

Plenty of people come and go here, but of course the majority stay for varying lengths of time and I’ll reiterate that the majority of people who are unhappy had a plan for 3 or 5 years and spend every day after they arrive convincing themselves of why they want to leave. I didn’t do that in my home country, I just got on with it and said that when I got bored, I’d move. However too many people don’t do that here. It isn’t that far home if you’re European, the only problem being the load factors when you want to head back. Then again, If your old company had 90% seat availability for staff, you may have a slightly more pragmatic view on the matter. The US/Aus is of course a different story, most Europeans wouldn’t go to Aus for a job, long-term, it’s the same for (particularly) Americans here.

Did your mate tell you about any of the things he enjoys over here, or did he spend lots of time telling you that there’s nothing to do save shopping here? Because that’s t*ss…my list of potential Dubai pastimes:

1) Canoeing offshore
2) Sailing/Sea Fishing
3) Diving
4) Climbing
5) Cycling on the numerous tracks
6) Hockey
7) Rugby
8) Karting/Driving

Of course, back home most guys couldn’t afford to buy a boat or a track car, or would freeze to death if they wanted to canoe in the open water for 8 months of the year, or climb mountains.

There seems only one reason to go to the ME at the moment - cash! For a single FO with no dependants or debt, the tax free pay is effectively all beer money. Together with provided accommodation, disposable income can be three times higher than back home. However fast commands, for Boeing at least, are a thing of the past. I read somewhere all T7 upgrades cancelled for this year? I'm guessing many joining now may never see out a command there as 8-10 years (summers!) is perhaps short for some airlines but a lifetime in the sandpit. QOL? The list of negatives is endless on this forum so I won't repeat them here.

Yes, command times are extending but how long are long haul commands in your carrier? How long will you spend eating the aforementioned sandwiches and driving your banger to and from work 20 times a month before you get to sit in the left hand seat of the aforementioned 737 for another 10 or 15 years, waiting to fly long haul in the hallowed seat for the last 5 years of your career? Will you even get a command long haul or will your course just miss out, as in my old carrier, because you were on the wrong course as a new joiner. I believe that in the US, the problem of long command times was partially solved by offering guys a reserve captaincy - permanent standby for up to 5 years. Sounds like a riot.

QOL? I can tell you that my previous crowd, most likely one of the most unionised in Europe, the skippers were certainly complaining about QOL when they were doing 4 sector days flying 6/2/5/1 all summer and 5/2/6/3 over winter. The guys here have a tough time, especially those of us who spend a significant amount of time flying into Incredible India (incredible being the operative word) at 4 in the morning, but I can honestly say that it probably isn’t much worse than what they left behind - when you mention it, most agree they prefer to be here.

As far as summer goes, as I said above, if you spend the whole cool period complaining that the summer is coming, you’ll a) p*ss everyone off and b) hate it even more when it comes. Yeah, it’s bloody hot and massively humid. 8-10 years is the same amount of time anywhere, how long it feels depends on how much of that time you spend complaining over here in the 'sandpit' (btw, what is it they're calling Warwickshire now, Atlantis, is it?). It’s also pretty manky in HK and Singapore, people seem to complain less about it there. It’s also like that for a damn sight less of the year than it is raining and blowing a hooley back home. Believe me, I lost count of how many weekly baths my dog got back home and how much time she spent locked in the kitchen drying off (yes, people over egg how hard it is to have dogs over here, ours go into the desert 4 days a week for 8 months of the year and as long as they have water, they see it just as a big beach. Much better than a muddy farmer’s field for us, makes b*gger all difference to them.). However can I please take that above the snow banks and flooded rivers that home has been getting?

T&C at some carriers I know in Europe are improving greatly whilst things slide at the big three. A jet FO joining my airline today will be on £55k basic after a year on short haul (not a legacy airline) whilst the starting pay at one of the big three is circ £50k for wide body long haul working maximum hours around the clock. The net pay is 1.5k more a month in the sandpit, plus accommodation. Of course if you can get a quick command in Europe (possible at my airline) there is little difference in pay.

T&C’s in Europe improving? I haven’t seen much evidence of that. Things aren’t the same as they used to be out here, you’re right there, however Dubai isn’t, as you may be inclined to believe, the most unliveable place in the world nowadays and simply doesn’t have to pay the rates it used to to get people over here. That said, I go to work, have a chuckle for the (invariably) day and go home. With my wife working, we save 80% of her salary. When we were at home, we needed both salaries just to survive. We go out to 5* restaurants when we want, we can go on holiday more often to get away, and we can buy nice stuff. People are going to say that that doesn’t matter, but it’s easy to say you’d prefer to have a Yaris and a 2 up, 2 down terrace when you drive a Cayenne and live in a, well, 2 up, 2.5 down terrace (if you rent). But the 2.5 house still has nicer stuff in it.

I don’t quite get your point about the salary. '1.5k' doesn’t include accom. What does rent/mortgage cost you at home? £800 for a small place? So you’re probably taking home £2300 a month extra. That’s a LOT of money…how much extra do you want to earn without moving to China and dying from breathing difficulties?

I am unsure as to who you fly for, of course, but the lack of stability, the boom/bust nature of European aviation puts me off, there are plenty of guys who stayed here because their last 4 carriers went bust. I hope not, but I don’t have too much faith that Virgin will be around for generations. They also seem to lay guys off every time someone in the Bundesbank sneezes.

And yes, there is little difference in pay between an expat FO and a home-based skipper. Please tell me about the difference once you are an expat skipper? How about if you get a fast-track command over here (as have been given recently, and will surely come and go in the future, admittedly unpredictably)?

Accountants (apologies, I don’t often swear without an asterisk) tell me that the EK F/O package is worth 120k+ in a UK salary. The Skipper salary tops out at over 200k with schooling, housing etc taken into account. And even if you are a skipper for a few extra years back home, you'll still earn more over here, if that is your only argument.

My question is therefore - is it still worth leaving a permanent job back home in a reasonably stable airline for a job in the Middle East, and if so, for what? Has anyone done just that and lived to regret it, then not been able to get back home? (Expat for life, getting further and further from home with each job change!). Many say if you have a good passport and reasonable job just don't bother.

My answer, therefore, to your question, considering the tone of your post (which could to some sound like ‘why would anybody be so stupid as to move overseas’ – although of course I’m sure you are entirely neutral about the whole debacle), is no, for you, you would hate it out here.

Don’t come out here to improve you bank balance, the future of your family and children and their education, the life experience you will get leaving the house you own on your parent’s street, the opportunity to avoid endless 4 sector days de-icing and getting the sh*t kicked out of you on every approach.

Don’t come out here if you don’t want to live outside your home country because that, this place is not, and don’t come out if you are of the opinion that people out here come out solely because they’re desperate and are at the bottom of the chain everywhere else.

But:

- if you think being an expat may actually not be a bad life

- if you will go out and make the effort to find things to do in your spare time,

- if you enjoy being able to set up your future more certainly than at home,

- if you want to be as certain as anyone can be that you’ll avoid being laid off

- if you are willing to find a group of friends that match your approach and can appreciate that the expat community spirit is far closer (not THAT close necessarily, unless you want that of course, I believe the OMO club is always open to new members) than the ‘you leave me alone, I’ll leave you alone - while that crack addict is busy stabbing you’ spirit that sadly appears to have emerged at home,

- if you are willing to accept that you don’t get owt for nowt, that the company will never treat its staff as well as most airlines back home have to (I can think of at least one EU employer who is far worse), and that hoping this will change is going to a) be futile and b) ruin your enjoyment of anything,

Then maybe, just maybe, you should come and give it a go.

Perhaps you could now answer me this question while I change into my shorts and flip flops and walk my dogs around the huge lake in the middle of my 'walled compound':

Why the hell should I move home?

[falconeasydriver]

Post of the year award so far goes to Fong

[Hold position]

The honorable Fong.

Excellent reply, you have managed to answer it with hummer and integrate.

[thehonourablefong]

Oh chaps, come on, it's nothing!

Seriously though, any chance you could recommend me for a Najm? I believe they're giving out half-filled Costa cards with them now.

I also appreciate the irony of repeatedly editing the grammar in my post, whilst leaving the phrase 'owt for nowt' firmly in place.

On a more serious note, I would also say that my decision to move was finalised when flying with numerous people who had nearly left to come over here, but didn't...I decided that I would be more devastated to find, 10 years down the road when it is too late, that I regretted coming over here and would have to spend the rest of my career wondering 'what if' than coming over, trying it, not liking it and being able to go home a bit richer, having found out the truth for myself.

If it works for me out here, I hope to retire 5 years earlier and spend my time thinking about how hard I would still be working at home as I eat too much and drink myself to an early grave on my yacht. That's perhaps the hard reality.

[theidler]

These four posts were made a few years ago by the same poster in a time frame of just over a year. Take note of Al Murdochs post #2 on this thread.

He's happy at first.

I've been here 18 months and I love it! Nobody comes to EK from the UK for the Bunce. It's a question of quality of life. I came here to get away from crappy weather, tax, crappy promotion prospects, tax, a crappy government, tax, crappy services, tax, miserable b******s on late trains, tax, road rage,tax, the whordes of juvenile delinquents of a jilted generation, tax, same old Med and Caribbean routes, tax, same old routine, tax, whinging b******s, tax oh and dwindling pensions. Enuff said.

Four months later he's still happy.

If you want as secure a job as you can get in today's world, to go to work with a decent bunch of people, flying a young fleet of well maintained aircraft to wide and varied destinations and have the decision of beach,pool or golf to make on your days off then give it a whirl.
You can only compare it to what your previous (or current) employer was (is) like. 330 Man is spot-on when he says that you wouldn't leave a good job with a stable or a National carrier to come to Emirates, although saying that there are 2 young guys from BA here who are having a ball. I came here from a UK charter carrier as an F/O along with 5 colleages from our old airline along with people from SAA, Sabena, Swissair, SAS, Cathay and a whole host of scheduled, charter, international and domestic carriers.
My only regret is that I didnt apply 3 years earlier. I've been here for almost 18 months and I haven't regretted it. If you are caught up in a tough decision then take a trip out here and see it for yourself as it isn't to everyone's tastes. If you're married make sure you bring your wife.
The only downside is that it isn't the best pay in the industry and it is tied to the dollar, but on balance my quality of life is much better than with my previous mob and you can't really put a price on that.

Then just three months later he's writing about why Ryanair is better than EK.

Decent money, home every night, able to spend more time with the family, easily make 'Last Orders' at your local watering hole, COMMAND, good craic at work, friendlier working enviroment, safe(r) roads, as for tax, you'll probably be making more in sector pay to offset against income tax, EUROPE, greenery, no long overnight flights, no jet lag or feeling permanently knackered, fun at work...spending the best part of the last 18 months looking at what my friends back in charter and Lo cost have in terms of quality of life, money, pension schemes, promotion opportunities...they are just some of the reasons I'm leaving EK.

Six months later, he's out!

EK? What do I think?
Well I left today and some items I mentioned at my exit interview with HR went a little awry as I collected my cheque. Unfulfilled promises... verbal agreements.... 'cast iron assurances' not materialising etc. which left me feeling well and truly screwed over.

And two months ago he posted this:

In the 8 years since I left NOTHING has changed!!!
I can see why you guys are whinging...
Does Emirates still stand for
English Managed, Indian Rosterers, Aussie Trainers, Everybody Shafted...?

[thehonourablefong]

As I mentioned though, he at least came here and tried it, if he can't see that he's better off having been over and hated it than always wondering, then it's rather a wasted opportunity!

And seeing as you made the same points as I did about job stability in the UK when you found those comments in December, are you bringing them up now in order to warn people about the people who post duff gen here or do you now feel the same, three months after you ridiculed him for what he was posting?

[Flyingmachine01]

Great Post

Great Post.... Really enjoyed reading it.
Definitely got me asking about myself questions.

I am currently flying a 737, eating day old sandwiches.
Seriously.... I can't wait for my start date.. But in the meantime I am hoping to apply to the other 2 Airlines in ME....

No going to die wondering....

[bob777]

Stay home

777X I dd the same mistake 8 years ago. I'm still paying the consequences. Don't leave civilization unless desperate and disregards the lunatics telling you the opposite. Dubai is dictatorship where you have no rights. A place that sure suites a certain type of people, the unprincipled the self servant and flattered.
If you have a half decent job don't fall in the trap.

1) Canoeing offshore
2) Sailing/Sea Fishing
3) Diving
4) Climbing
5) Cycling on the numerous tracks
6) Hockey
7) Rugby
8) Karting/Driving

This is the funniest part. All this activities are possible for three may be 4 months month a year ( and you still have to survive cycling in Dubai ) the rest will be home with full AC and Mall of Emirates.. well a part from your night flying... Fong..you spent so much time on this post that it would seem you are trying to convince yourself more than others.. Nothing is like Europe and will not let a few camel ****ers turned sheiks change that.

[Laker]

To be fair the Diving here sucks, the sailing isn't so good unless you like cruising back and forth up a rather ugly coastline and don't mind being stopped by the coast guard. Be careful drinking on the boat! Cycling is also terrible unless you don't care about scenery. If you cycle on the roads your chances of getting killed are quite high. Hockey you can play in the mall. Climbing might be ok in the winter when it's not 40+ degrees. You can buy a nice car and drive up and down the roads to nowhere. The best social activity in Dubai is drinking at the numerous bars/clubs. If you enjoy playing football you can do that at some of the parks.

If you come as a single guy your best bet is taking your days off and traveling around the system. Save all you can and have a good escape plan. If you don't spend too much on a luxury car and house then you can save quite a bit of money. For a family guy you won't save much at all and the package might not be worth the sacrifices. Your command will take ages if you join now. I'm guessing 8-10 years+. Think long and hard.

best of luck

[aussiefarmer]

There's one thing that I think we will all (99.9%) agree on.

Not a single one of us wants to stay in Dubai forever.

Then that leaves 2 reasons (in my opinion) to come here:

- A faster professional promotion (upgrade) //not anymore these days!

- Saving money to retire earlier and/or achieve financial goals //barely possible these days!

In the end you are going to go back (as an average, EK pilots last 6 to 8 years in the company). Before it made sense (cash+3yr upgrade then few years as skipper and back home). But now, why bother coming??

[thehonourablefong]

777x, see, 'nothing but malls and the beach'!

bob, I spent my life in Europe inside with the heating on for 8 months of the year as the rain does its best to wash away everything outside.

Laker, in the UK you can't do much climbing in the winter unless you are really determined. You can play FIELD hockey outside, and yes, there are indoor facilities for playing ice hockey in the summer. You can't afford to drive a nice car on a road to ANYWHERE in the UK, and most of Europe, at least when your employer closes shop.

But yes, if you are stupid enough to cycle on the roads, there is a high chance you will die. Then again, if you are stupid enough to try it, having your genes removed from the pool is probably no bad thing...

[Rather Be Skiing]

Originally Posted by aussiefarmer

There's one thing that I think we will all (99.9%) agree on. Not a single one of us wants to stay in Dubai forever. Then that leaves 2 reasons (in my opinion) to come here: - A faster professional promotion (upgrade) //not anymore these days! - Saving money to retire earlier and/or achieve financial goals //barely possible these days! In the end you are going to go back (as an average, EK pilots last 6 to 8 years in the company). Before it made sense (cash+3yr upgrade then few years as skipper and back home). But now, why bother coming??

That about sums it up. Locals aside, there are very few here that would say Dubai is on their list of desired locals to live.

That leaves, for the most part, money and professional advancement. Both of these are no longer the 'carrots' they once were.

The moral at EK, from my observations, is shockingly low. This seems to be the case across most employee groups. The human side of the equation has been so badly mismanaged, I don't think money alone will cure what ails this place.

[falconeasydriver]

RBS sums it all up rather accurately, the old saying of 2 buckets still rings true.

There is of course a 3rd option, which for me involves having the family live at home and between us we commute as best we can. Not ideal, but it works for us.
I'd come here again given the same set of circumstances as I faced at the time and that is as true today as when I joined.
Don't live in a fools paradise thinking the management/local tier will view you in any other way than labourers with a specific skill set, its never going to change and the only currency here is supply v demand.

[Alconguin Crusader]

If you are from a good airline in a decent country stay where you are. I know "good" and "decent" are all relative but having left a top tier airline it was a very big mistake.
Like my friend who is leaving Emirates said "they (EK) can double my salary and I am still leaving, it is the treatment." That is very true. The Ryanair pilots probably don't notice much of a change in management styles but anyone who came from a legacy airline or wide body job will notice a huge drop off when joining Emirates.
Plus it is just so damn expensive in Dubai. The earlier poster listed all the things he can do here. What he fails to mention is that all those activities would be half price back home even if you couldn't do some of them in the winter. Plus we would all be working way less if we were flying long haul so we would have more time to enjoy the activities.
I do believe things will get better. I know I probably in the minority with that view point but with so many pilots leaving and not enough coming management has to change its tune. The seniority list is 150 numbers less than it was 10 months ago. Is management going to continue to let good pilots leave with so many airplanes coming?

[captainsmiffy]

For 'Rather Be Skiing's benefit, low morals and low morale are two quite distinctly different things.......!!!