Hold at DESDI/BUBIN but then short cut arrival?!

[Voodoo 3]

Far more often than not over recent weeks, months even, when asked to route to Desdi or Bubin and take up the hold, why is it that when handed over to approach on 124.9 do they almost always short cut the arrival from around Girgo (30R/L). You have to base your diversion fuel on flying the whole arrival. If sent to the hold I can not shortcut the arrival because of what usually happens to give me more fuel to hold because possibly ATC may ask to fly the whole arrival and then it could lead to a very uncomfortable situation.

So the question is, why do aircraft have to hold if DXB atc do not use the whole arrival procedure? Surely if the whole STAR is not full then there is no reason to hold? I think I recall that UAE now has this fancy arrival computer system so why do we have to hold when we often get shortcuts, can't we just follow the looooooooong arrival instead?

If no holding then I will expect at the most to fly the whole procedure and if not busy then a nice shortcut around girgo, happy days!

Also while I'm here, why are the shortcut arrivals not being used? It would kinda make more sense if being sent to the hold and then expect a shorter procedure as opposed to holding, expecting and planning for the longer trombone one and then getting a shortcut in the end which you can not forecast while going round in circles?!

Thanks all.

[10 DME ARC]

Voodoo - I guess you are not EK?? As most based airlines use a 'fuel star' for planning?? The full star or trombone as it gets called is for over flow as the system we have for sequencing aircraft off the holds is not that accurate, especially if you have strong upper winds or high surface wind.
Under normal ops base leg will be given around GIRGO(30), busy nights ops about 10nm after.
Hope that helps, most pilots like getting a short cut!?!?

[skysod]

I'm with Voodoo on this one.......if ATC started instructing aircraft to take up the hold ONLY after the long arrival route is "full", then this makes fuel planning for holding/diverting much easier/more accurate.
As it is, whilst in the hold it is impossible to know how many track miles you will be required to fly once instructed to continue on the STAR.

[single chime]

I like the turn at GIRGO. Lately, the 124.9 controller has been really good at telling people where to expect their base turn (can't you figure the track miles yourself?).
I hate flying at 185kts, flaps 15 and 4000' to a 30 NM final. 1 or 2 spins at DESDI at FL180 will burn waaaay less fuel.
And I leave DESDI with the fuel for the worst, hoping the best (8 NM final).

[Plazbot]

Usually it is because of where the first few aircraft in the arrival sequence come from before holding is required. For example, if it is rwy 30 and the first few are from BUBIN, the get short cut to Sedpo. The arrivals manager computer works out the landing times not taking this into account so this means that there is a effective 3-4 minute gap that gets created and it will mean everyone gets short cut from that side. It can be averted by doing what is called 'taking extras' but this means the Dubai guys have to see it about to happen and ask for it. Darax guys for 30 when sent on a southerly heading from PUVAL cause the same issue. Reverse all of the above for 12 arrivals.

[Voodoo 3]

10DME, you're right not EK.

It's just I don't get doing circles at Desdi and then not doing the full arrival. If the arrival ain't full then why hold us. I am sure there are many variables that we pilots don't get to see but it's just a curious situation that we have to plan for the whole STAR and then don't end up flying it having been holding.

Thanks for other replies.

Any idea why the shorter arrivals are not in use yet?

Lately, the 124.9 controller has been really good at telling people where to expect their base turn (can't you figure the track miles yourself?).

.

SC, I hope that wasn't aimed at me. I can work out miles quite well thanks but am staggered by the amount of people who seem less able to…..

[single chime]

Voodoo, no, it was not for you. I get to fly with people who can't, that's all.

[falconeasydriver]

The guys that generally ask for track miles (myself included) have generally flown previously in Europe or the UK. The reason we ask is that we are trying as best we can to fly a CDA...of course I can work out track miles, but it's impossible to do so when you don't know when you are turning base.

[single chime]

Yes Falcon, it would be much easier for everyone if on first contact with DXB the controller would tell us "... and expect base turn at (position ABC)".

[Plazbot]

Further to my above, the short cuts will continue until there is a fairly even number of arrivals from both sides. If you come in at say 4am local from BUBIN side, the seventh or eighth aircraft will likely be the first to hold and assuming all the African traffic does not come through MIADA almost everybody will get short cut. The short cuts will stop when the traffic from the other side builds and hits abeam the field.

[10 DME ARC]

Every one doing the full trombone leaves no leeway for spacing on final(4nm -8nm norm vortex) or any problems like, AMAN timings, go-arounds etc etc.
The shorter STAR is purely a fuel planning STAR as it recognised that you won't fly the full star most of the time!

Whilst on subject of spacing please don't slow below given speed without telling us! Most of the time the ones who do slow end up sending the one behind around and don't even notice any thing but an ATC Bollocking! Mean while some one behind is going around and doing an extra 40 track miles!! An example; un-named Super the other night given 160kts to 5nm gets transferred to tower next seen at eight miles doing 137kt ground!! 2xB777 behind back to min safe and just make vortex as do the two B737's behind them. The one decrease in speed effected at least four other aircraft!!
Thank you off soap box

[Plazbot]

[quote]It's just I don't get doing circles at Desdi and then not doing the full arrival. If the arrival ain't full then why hold us. [\quote]

Holding is not for now but what is going to happen in 19 minutes at the runway. Keep in mind basic maths that with effectively a two minute landing sequence, if four aircraft have an estimated landing time of exactly the same and are coming through 4 different gates someone gets 2 mins delay, someone 4 and someone 6. Simple. You can have noone on your arrival between yourself and the airport yet to avoid raining bags all over Mirdif, you need to hold.

[allrounder99]

It's just I don't get doing circles at Desdi and then not doing the full arrival. If the arrival ain't full then why hold us.

Our fandangle arrival manager, as Plazbot has just said, plans the traffic to LAND in sequence evenly spaced through 4 separate gates as if there were no approach (in theory).

The system isn't perfect so approach gets to "optimise" the flow once in the TMA.

It's not like the rest of the world where its due to capacity.

[captainsmiffy]

10 DME Arc.....not wishing to teach you to suck eggs or anything but when you say that the super was given 160 to 5 but was subsequently seen doing 137 ground....are you factoring the wind into that comment? 160 is an AIRSPEED and, given a 23 kt HW component will show up as 137 GROUNDSPEED on your readouts. Just saying.....

[10 DME ARC]

captainsmiffy - After thirty three years in Air Traffic I think I might have got hang of ground speed!! The 2/3&4000ft winds were virtually calm! 160 looked like around 167kts ground that night!

[captainsmiffy]

Had hoped that, as a professional controller, you might say that...!!! However, from your earlier post it wasnt clear with the way that you wrote it. At least we have cleared that bit up! As I said, didnt wish to teach you to suck eggs....!! And, yes, from a pilots perspective it always beggas belief if I see a colleague blatantly not following speed control. It IS, however, a very dynamic environment with a VERY unforgiving management if you do screw up so this might go some way in explaining why the chaps slow down earlier to guarantee stabilisation criteria. Granted though, some blokes do take the p*ss.....not excusing nor condoning their behaviour.

[10 DME ARC]

captsmiffy - totally understandable people people not wanting to screw up but please tell us before you do it!! We like you 'do not want to screw up' and are under considerable pressure to balance safety and still meet landing rates!

[Guy D'ageradar]

But the office bods keep on saying "there's no pressure" so surely it must be so?!

[jack schidt]

STAR's are used to sequence traffic onto the final approach and keep an organised flow. Would you expect to fly the whole STAR / Trombone because it's published and if you were the only aircraft inbound to Dubai....No you wouldn't?


It's a tool that aids sequencing, not a mandatory path to follow.

[falconeasydriver]

10 DME, I've been on the receiving end of slower aircraft ahead in recent weeks (guys, if your light on the 777, use F25 fer fecks sake, it keeps the speed up!) as both 380 and 330 traffic has slowed down to just stoopid slowness.
My question is, if you guys see this, and to me it's blatant at times.....do you send the transgressors around? or do you do what you've done to me twice in recent months and send us off to GINKI for doing exactly 210-190-160kts as requested...