EK How many are really leaving?
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EK How many are really leaving?
It seems like every second senior 777 guy I speak to is in the process of planning to, or are actually leaving.
Various places CSA, back to the US, or contracts in other places.
Just a straw poll, and purely unscientific, but is anyone else starting to think this might be turning into a bit of a max exodus? or is it perhaps wishful thinking?
Various places CSA, back to the US, or contracts in other places.
Just a straw poll, and purely unscientific, but is anyone else starting to think this might be turning into a bit of a max exodus? or is it perhaps wishful thinking?
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I think it must be wishful thinking because I see people leaving China to go to the M.E: but so far I have not seen any movement in the other direction.
In my view when people with secure jobs look at China in the cold light of day, all they really see is risk and insecurity.
In my view when people with secure jobs look at China in the cold light of day, all they really see is risk and insecurity.
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200 have gone before me on the seniority list in just under 3 years. There are 3550 pilots now. I think, mathematically, the retrition rate is normal for a company this size that employs large amounts of expats.
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In the top 600 and have barely moved over the last few months. Maybe 9 spots... Than again; there have been a few retirements of senior chaps as well as leaving to go elsewhere!
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very young guys are leaving because they are young enough to start at the bottom in a western country and many older guys are leaving now cos they did their time and want to fly part time, EK doesn't get the message yet that there are other airlines that offer what pilots want
Free beer and dancing girls GoreTex?
the Don
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Toss in a well stocked wine cellar and I'm in!
It seems there is a not insignificant number at EK that are exploring the job market. This has happened on numerous occasions before. Usually as result of some event/issue like increasing block hours, lack of profit share etc.
What seems different now is the unrest/dissatisfaction is more general and broad based with no single event as a trigger.
It seems more folks are feeling that the EK package is not providing enough to offset living away from home. Especially in Dubai where costs continue to significantly out pace the compensation.
Combine that with quality of life issues such as scheduling, vacation etc and the argument for staying becomes harder to make.
It is still two buckets but the s#*t one is filling quicker.
It seems there is a not insignificant number at EK that are exploring the job market. This has happened on numerous occasions before. Usually as result of some event/issue like increasing block hours, lack of profit share etc.
What seems different now is the unrest/dissatisfaction is more general and broad based with no single event as a trigger.
It seems more folks are feeling that the EK package is not providing enough to offset living away from home. Especially in Dubai where costs continue to significantly out pace the compensation.
Combine that with quality of life issues such as scheduling, vacation etc and the argument for staying becomes harder to make.
It is still two buckets but the s#*t one is filling quicker.
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Does anyone really think that EK cares if you leave, HR still saying attrition is @3% . I don't think it's started yet.
Also some FO's are seeing the time to the LHS taking longer and hoping for more to leave to move up the list.
Also some FO's are seeing the time to the LHS taking longer and hoping for more to leave to move up the list.
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There are various logical exit points, such as seven years, ten years of service (now has to be within ten of retirement age), and so on. It's more interesting to study the demographics of those at these key points, a glance at the seniority list shows many entering these time windows where exploring options becomes infinitely reasonable. People can hold whatever personal opinion they want of the options out there, but it doesn't alter that there are currently many options.
Setting aside for a moment the whole living in Dubai in the Middle East thing.
When you combine the pilot stats with a constantly eroded package, rising inflation, sheer fatigue, roster nonsense, and complete indifference from management it's hardly a shocker that many are looking and more than a handful are leaving. And yes, it's more than anecdotal - people are leaving. In spite of the happy-clappy line from HR (And what exactly about EK managers would lead ANYONE to put any faith in the truth of what is said by those muppets? Their stellar record of kept promises?!). 
Plus, 3% of 3500+ constantly resigning pilots is a bit of a different logistical challenge than 3% of several hundred pilots. Just as the fleet doesn't mathematically double quite as quickly as it did a few years back, neither can some claimed percentage of leavers be considered in the same way as it once was.
Setting aside for a moment the whole living in Dubai in the Middle East thing.
When you combine the pilot stats with a constantly eroded package, rising inflation, sheer fatigue, roster nonsense, and complete indifference from management it's hardly a shocker that many are looking and more than a handful are leaving. And yes, it's more than anecdotal - people are leaving. In spite of the happy-clappy line from HR (And what exactly about EK managers would lead ANYONE to put any faith in the truth of what is said by those muppets? Their stellar record of kept promises?!). Plus, 3% of 3500+ constantly resigning pilots is a bit of a different logistical challenge than 3% of several hundred pilots. Just as the fleet doesn't mathematically double quite as quickly as it did a few years back, neither can some claimed percentage of leavers be considered in the same way as it once was.
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Its well beyond the issue whether management notices or even cares about the rate of resignations...who really cares what they think anyway? It is only about what it takes to make you..the individual pilot content. For some, that could mean a little respect and recognition for ones contribution to the bottom line and the sacrifices made therein. For others money is the driving force, for some maybe its the joy of actually flying an airplane and actually being a pilot instead of a robot.
Whatever your motivation to leave is irrelevant to the managers...just the individual so forget about trying to "stick it to these stuffed shirts". They will always find a way to protect their own asses. They will hire less and less qualified people until people die, a hull is lost and most importantly, they find themselves in the spotlight...very embarrassed, trying to explain why the best airline, with all that profit couldn't attract the best.
Its a time bomb and they know it.
Whatever your motivation to leave is irrelevant to the managers...just the individual so forget about trying to "stick it to these stuffed shirts". They will always find a way to protect their own asses. They will hire less and less qualified people until people die, a hull is lost and most importantly, they find themselves in the spotlight...very embarrassed, trying to explain why the best airline, with all that profit couldn't attract the best.
Its a time bomb and they know it.
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The Emirates machine continues to tick on. It may be a time bomb as was posted before, but somehow, year after year, it continues to grow. Is it perfect? Hell no! It sucks. But that is my opinion. You dont have to like it. Take a look at the dragon, see what part of it works for you and make your decision.
This dragon will show you a lot, promise you much and change whatever it likes.
I've been here a long time. It comes down to one thing. Get out of this company what you can. Make it work for you.
This dragon will show you a lot, promise you much and change whatever it likes.
I've been here a long time. It comes down to one thing. Get out of this company what you can. Make it work for you.
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Originally Posted by nolimitholdem
Their stellar record of kept promises?!).
What promises have you ever heard?
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I would agree that EK is a place you should get out of it what you can… what YOU need for it to work for you.
There are a lot of guys coming up on the 7 year itch point and I'm thinking if there's not a relatively significant increase in pay and/or bonus, more than 3% may action the "If you don't like it, there's the door" exit plan (Actually did hear a hi up manager say that at a group pilot meeting…. amazing. Nice way to treat your pilots!!!)
I would also think that EK is starting to find it a bit harder to find qualified guys because evidently they are starting Road shows again.
Yet somehow, someway, the EK machine still seems to roll along as a juggernaut inspite of it's incredible lack of employee appreciation.
Interesting times ahead!
Kap
There are a lot of guys coming up on the 7 year itch point and I'm thinking if there's not a relatively significant increase in pay and/or bonus, more than 3% may action the "If you don't like it, there's the door" exit plan (Actually did hear a hi up manager say that at a group pilot meeting…. amazing. Nice way to treat your pilots!!!)
I would also think that EK is starting to find it a bit harder to find qualified guys because evidently they are starting Road shows again.
Yet somehow, someway, the EK machine still seems to roll along as a juggernaut inspite of it's incredible lack of employee appreciation.
Interesting times ahead!
Kap
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Someone said people with secure jobs look at china and see risk and insecurity. Let's assume for a moment that's accurate and compare it to what people have at EK. Do you feel secure? Do you feel like they wouldn't or couldn't drop anyone for any reason? Does anyone have a contract that hasn't changed or witnessed T&Cs amended with concern for the implications?
People are and will continue to leave unless EK steps up and at least matches some of the better packages out there.
World class airline, world class uniform, world class package?
People are and will continue to leave unless EK steps up and at least matches some of the better packages out there.
World class airline, world class uniform, world class package?
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S^!t bucket is topped off (not enough control over roster and vacation).
At current rate (0.5% pay increases per year + 0$ Profit Share) the $ bucket will take decades to fill. The rate of pay increases have been far below the inflation rate in Dubai.
At this point the only thing that would keep me here is to: get productivity pay back and remove all non-regulatory roster limitations. Since neither of these things are going to happen, I'm going home.
As soon as I get the call... I'm gone.
FP
At current rate (0.5% pay increases per year + 0$ Profit Share) the $ bucket will take decades to fill. The rate of pay increases have been far below the inflation rate in Dubai.
At this point the only thing that would keep me here is to: get productivity pay back and remove all non-regulatory roster limitations. Since neither of these things are going to happen, I'm going home.
As soon as I get the call... I'm gone.
FP
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fatbus--don't agree.
The KAL contact was not ideal for most people. Too long away from home and not enough $$$ to make that worthwhile. However, all the guys at KAL do say that their contact is kept 100% and they know exactly what to expect.
The contacts that are coming out know in China have improved. $18,000/month (tax free), less than 80 hours per month, overtime based where you live. 14 days on out of your base -- 14 off. Multiple variations.
So lets take an average EK captain. Makes $11,500/month, add roughly $500 for value of provident fund. Fly 90 hours plus per month, deteriorating rostering................
Please don't talk about housing allowance etc because for most it is a wash.
So you make $6000 more......MORE......with these new contracts, live at home (most countries have a tax treaty so it is NET), fly far less and have better rostering.
Which is why, over the holidays at every party I was at, EVERYONE and their wives were talking about it!
It seems, at the moment, most are watching to see what happens with those contracts. But the simple fact that so many are looking, even just casually, is what makes this different from the past. In the past the contracts where not nearly as good. Now they SURPASS what EK offers, substantially, with an option to live at home.
It won't happen overnight, but over the next year to 2 years these contracts will improve, more will come and many EK guys will be taking them. But that's just a guess.
The KAL contact was not ideal for most people. Too long away from home and not enough $$$ to make that worthwhile. However, all the guys at KAL do say that their contact is kept 100% and they know exactly what to expect.
The contacts that are coming out know in China have improved. $18,000/month (tax free), less than 80 hours per month, overtime based where you live. 14 days on out of your base -- 14 off. Multiple variations.
So lets take an average EK captain. Makes $11,500/month, add roughly $500 for value of provident fund. Fly 90 hours plus per month, deteriorating rostering................
Please don't talk about housing allowance etc because for most it is a wash.
So you make $6000 more......MORE......with these new contracts, live at home (most countries have a tax treaty so it is NET), fly far less and have better rostering.
Which is why, over the holidays at every party I was at, EVERYONE and their wives were talking about it!
It seems, at the moment, most are watching to see what happens with those contracts. But the simple fact that so many are looking, even just casually, is what makes this different from the past. In the past the contracts where not nearly as good. Now they SURPASS what EK offers, substantially, with an option to live at home.
It won't happen overnight, but over the next year to 2 years these contracts will improve, more will come and many EK guys will be taking them. But that's just a guess.
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I have previously been with two bigger outfits. Both went down (one almost at least) because of arrogance of management. When success is clouding the top shot's minds and the middle level is drowsy of gobbling up the drugged crumbs falling from the top, nothing will happen to improve moral of the ones effectively working, even if their discontent and erosion of T&C's is evident, until the brown matter hits the fan.
EK is right there.
It's the old see-saw of life: When one seat is firmly on the ground, the other almost in the blue sky, it takes a huge shift of balance to reverse the situation. But if suddenly the weight on the bad side prevails, there is basically nothing in the short term to stop the balance shifting with a huge and loud impact. It then takes heaploads of energy, good will and even more money to bring the balance back to the good side. Mostly too much of all to prevent the demise of the outfit. QED.
The self appointed "leaders" around here all seem too greedy and arrogantly short sighted to counteract now. Again: QED during the last crisis in the region that seems to be reloaded. But the fact that too many employes start at least thinking of leaving, and even more advise their friends not to apply, at least for now, points at the weight starting to be no longer very much in favour of this region.
Our dear leaders are well advised to act because once the see-saw swings to the wrong side, it will stay there for a very long time.
EK is right there.
It's the old see-saw of life: When one seat is firmly on the ground, the other almost in the blue sky, it takes a huge shift of balance to reverse the situation. But if suddenly the weight on the bad side prevails, there is basically nothing in the short term to stop the balance shifting with a huge and loud impact. It then takes heaploads of energy, good will and even more money to bring the balance back to the good side. Mostly too much of all to prevent the demise of the outfit. QED.
The self appointed "leaders" around here all seem too greedy and arrogantly short sighted to counteract now. Again: QED during the last crisis in the region that seems to be reloaded. But the fact that too many employes start at least thinking of leaving, and even more advise their friends not to apply, at least for now, points at the weight starting to be no longer very much in favour of this region.
Our dear leaders are well advised to act because once the see-saw swings to the wrong side, it will stay there for a very long time.
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I agree with most of what you guys are saying, but the fact is, whether you like it or not, things roll on regardless. This very same conversation has been going on for the last decade.... what's changed.....Nothing, nada.
People, please don't make the mistake of thinking that you're important or that the management give a sh1t about you, they don't and won't until upwards of 5-7% attrition rates are reached.
The cold, hard truth is that if you don't like it you can leave, regardless of whether you like the sentiment or not, or stay. Those are your choices.
People, please don't make the mistake of thinking that you're important or that the management give a sh1t about you, they don't and won't until upwards of 5-7% attrition rates are reached.
The cold, hard truth is that if you don't like it you can leave, regardless of whether you like the sentiment or not, or stay. Those are your choices.