The KAL Roadshow
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The KAL Roadshow
It's enroute to Dubai as we speak..
Some notes about the contract that will not be self evident, it certainly wasn't to me ...
The contract states 4 'FOC NO/SUBLO' tickets are available to use. Although this suggests that they are not 'subject to load', this is not the case. Should you use these tickets, the company may 'confirm' the seat if the load looks good. However, as more than one of the Foreign Captain's have experienced, you can be offloaded at any time, (including being pulled from the aircraft at the gate just prior pushback), without compensation. These are, in fact SUBLOAD tickets.
The contract states overtime pay starts at 75 hours. It does go on to explain, more or less, the credit you get for different 'crewing' of flights,I.E., your hours are factored. After several years here, usually bumping up on 900 hours per year, I have received overtime once, and too small to notice. You will not receive overtime pay on regular basis.
You cannot use Sick Leave to make up the required 11 days of work required ... You must be there, on strength, 11 days per month. Sick days or not, you will get a major cut in pay should you not be there.
Guys are still 'failing out' near the end of the 3 month 'OE".
Just a few of the shortcomings of the contract...
KJ
Some notes about the contract that will not be self evident, it certainly wasn't to me ...
The contract states 4 'FOC NO/SUBLO' tickets are available to use. Although this suggests that they are not 'subject to load', this is not the case. Should you use these tickets, the company may 'confirm' the seat if the load looks good. However, as more than one of the Foreign Captain's have experienced, you can be offloaded at any time, (including being pulled from the aircraft at the gate just prior pushback), without compensation. These are, in fact SUBLOAD tickets.
The contract states overtime pay starts at 75 hours. It does go on to explain, more or less, the credit you get for different 'crewing' of flights,I.E., your hours are factored. After several years here, usually bumping up on 900 hours per year, I have received overtime once, and too small to notice. You will not receive overtime pay on regular basis.
You cannot use Sick Leave to make up the required 11 days of work required ... You must be there, on strength, 11 days per month. Sick days or not, you will get a major cut in pay should you not be there.
Guys are still 'failing out' near the end of the 3 month 'OE".
Just a few of the shortcomings of the contract...
KJ
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Thanks for the info!
It's really a shame because for a while back a few years, the KAL contract seemed to be the envy of the industry for expat flying with the commute part. And even when I'd read this forum with my filter glasses on, I could never get around the continuous comments that popped up all the time……
The guys who left one airline, went thru the entire training process only to be terminated the last day for some very odd reasons.
The absolute quiet cockpit for a 12 hour flight due to FO's not liking the expat captain.
The lack of interaction with the cabin crew as I understand it's not culturally acceptable for them to come to the cockpit at all.
K
It's really a shame because for a while back a few years, the KAL contract seemed to be the envy of the industry for expat flying with the commute part. And even when I'd read this forum with my filter glasses on, I could never get around the continuous comments that popped up all the time……
The guys who left one airline, went thru the entire training process only to be terminated the last day for some very odd reasons.
The absolute quiet cockpit for a 12 hour flight due to FO's not liking the expat captain.
The lack of interaction with the cabin crew as I understand it's not culturally acceptable for them to come to the cockpit at all.
K
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Korean Air in Dubai!!
Korean is in DXB holding information sessions at the Hyatt Regency in Deira.
10 till noon and 1600 and 1800.
Monday 11th Tuesday the 12th
I attended todays session and it was very informative.
10 till noon and 1600 and 1800.
Monday 11th Tuesday the 12th
I attended todays session and it was very informative.
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Gosh. 
If that's a surprise or an issue for you then perhaps you're culturally not acceptable to them. Frankly, when was the last time that these visits added value to your operation? The work one I'm referring to.
not culturally acceptable for them to come to the cockpit at all.
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The more CC that come up for a visit, the more I hope we don't have a situation in the back.
The ones that have something to offer… Decent conversations, playful banter, logical reasoning, and an IQ that can be rounded up to a 3 digit number are getting less and less. Im happily married so I don't really care what they look like undressed.
In cruise its nice to have a good chat and not get distracted. Being social at the appropriate time never hurt anyone.
With that said, the "social" aspect does not exist with CC from that certain peninsula. Neither does any sense of humor… Or at least thats what I've noticed throughout my career. I could be wong.
The best thing about my job is getting paid to fly, and enjoying the people I'm flying with. Having a good laugh makes a trip go by much faster.
CC
The ones that have something to offer… Decent conversations, playful banter, logical reasoning, and an IQ that can be rounded up to a 3 digit number are getting less and less. Im happily married so I don't really care what they look like undressed.
In cruise its nice to have a good chat and not get distracted. Being social at the appropriate time never hurt anyone.
With that said, the "social" aspect does not exist with CC from that certain peninsula. Neither does any sense of humor… Or at least thats what I've noticed throughout my career. I could be wong.
The best thing about my job is getting paid to fly, and enjoying the people I'm flying with. Having a good laugh makes a trip go by much faster.
CC
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In general, the FO's are not unfriendly.
The lack of cockpit conversation as far as I'm concerned is the lack of English ability, and the lack of topics of conversation.
I find there is a general lack of curiosity in Korean society, and that leads to most Koreans knowing very little about the world, hence making intelligent conversation very difficult.
If it is just me answering a bunch of questions, I would rather have a quiet time looking for that island in the pacific Tom Hanks was stranded on...
Same goes for the cabin crew. If they were inclined to stay more than the normal 2 minutes in the cockpit, the conversation would not be very interesting.
It is what it is, nobody comes to KAL for the atmosphere, that's for sure.
At the current rate, that's my 21.46 WON.
SM
The lack of cockpit conversation as far as I'm concerned is the lack of English ability, and the lack of topics of conversation.
I find there is a general lack of curiosity in Korean society, and that leads to most Koreans knowing very little about the world, hence making intelligent conversation very difficult.
If it is just me answering a bunch of questions, I would rather have a quiet time looking for that island in the pacific Tom Hanks was stranded on...
Same goes for the cabin crew. If they were inclined to stay more than the normal 2 minutes in the cockpit, the conversation would not be very interesting.
It is what it is, nobody comes to KAL for the atmosphere, that's for sure.
At the current rate, that's my 21.46 WON.
SM
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Still a Good Option...
Having worked there for 8 years, this company is still a great option. Yes, during the line-training portion one must have to be a bit 'subservient' and tell the LPC that his instructions were something fantastic (even though it wasn't), its one of the best commuting jobs available today, bar none.
To work with Korean Air is a cultural event and many expats don't get the hang of it at first but, once you do, it 'works'.
Sure many F/Os don't talk. Its not that they aren't interested in you, these guys and gals are timid and are more comfortable with their own culture. Who wouldn't?
To deal with it is to be open, honest and engage them. Make them feel that they have an input into the operation and see how well things go.
I thoroughly enjoyed my time working there. The rosters are good and very commutable. Furthermore; in 8 years, I NEVER had a roster change and I always got my Christmas vacation off.
One other thing...their maintenance of aircraft is probably the best in the industry. These airplanes are clean, inside and out.
Give it a try..
To work with Korean Air is a cultural event and many expats don't get the hang of it at first but, once you do, it 'works'.
Sure many F/Os don't talk. Its not that they aren't interested in you, these guys and gals are timid and are more comfortable with their own culture. Who wouldn't?
To deal with it is to be open, honest and engage them. Make them feel that they have an input into the operation and see how well things go.
I thoroughly enjoyed my time working there. The rosters are good and very commutable. Furthermore; in 8 years, I NEVER had a roster change and I always got my Christmas vacation off.
One other thing...their maintenance of aircraft is probably the best in the industry. These airplanes are clean, inside and out.
Give it a try..
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777AV8R
You make some really good points. I think that once you have been an expat, the transition to a place like Korean is not nearly so difficult. However, the fact of the matter is, they simply aren't paying enough to lure many guys away from the sandpit. Guys will not leave a tax free salary for the type of compensation they are offering. The packages at China in the 18K+ range are more enticing but the contracts appear all over the place and a crap shoot and guys won't leave the perceived security of the Middle East for a 2 year contract with tons of hoops like dodgy training and medicals etc.
At this rate, KAL will continue scraping the bottom, having huge failure rates and loads of attrition because they are not competitive right now in the world of the contract/expat pilot.
You make some really good points. I think that once you have been an expat, the transition to a place like Korean is not nearly so difficult. However, the fact of the matter is, they simply aren't paying enough to lure many guys away from the sandpit. Guys will not leave a tax free salary for the type of compensation they are offering. The packages at China in the 18K+ range are more enticing but the contracts appear all over the place and a crap shoot and guys won't leave the perceived security of the Middle East for a 2 year contract with tons of hoops like dodgy training and medicals etc.
At this rate, KAL will continue scraping the bottom, having huge failure rates and loads of attrition because they are not competitive right now in the world of the contract/expat pilot.
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I think there are two kinds of expats out there. The ones who want top dollar no matter what reasonable location it takes them to and how long they have to stay there and the other is the one who is willing to take lower pay because they insist on being able to get back home regularly.
I'm sure if Korean and Emirates offered both top dollar and good commuting, the flow would be to Emirates. It would be my preferred choice of the two if they both had the same terms, but they don't.
I'm sure if Korean and Emirates offered both top dollar and good commuting, the flow would be to Emirates. It would be my preferred choice of the two if they both had the same terms, but they don't.
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There lies the power of the airlines, Kal knows they have the commute contract and EK knows that they have the better " reside in country" contract. You choose with the current TC's. Simple yes no!
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777AV8R,
I agree with most of your post, especially about always getting the 'Christmas Vacation' time off, generally true. However, for being here 8 years, and having NEVER had a schedule change? That would likely make you the only pilot in KAL (and maybe the world) ever to accomplish that record. I find it difficult to believe. Schedule changes don't happen often, but they do occur. (Except for the B744 guys a year or two ago. Their schedules were regularly changing, for months on end, faster than kimchee makes you fart) And, ask those fellows that came from Emirates to KAL. They were Expats before KAL, but to hear them talk, their transtion from EK was not easy at all.
As far as the 'cultural' points that have been mentioned here. Many of the F/O's are most certainly NOT happier working with their own. Some of the crustier Korean National Captains treat them like ****. You can see the tension in the other F/O' if you end up on a full crew long haul.
.. Also there is still a significant problem with communication. Some of the Pursers/crew do not speak English well at all. Most get by, but some can be quite poor. Imagine, smoke in the cabin... if the person on the other end of the interphone has difficuty with English, how well/bad might it turn out?
And also, a relatively new developement in the contract. You are now confirmed Economy class on your deadhead home, upgradeable Business. It does not happen often at all, but that one time the company sends you home, maybe a 12-13 hour flight, as a KAL Captain, in Economy.. yer gonna be pissed.
I will, however, give them full credit where it's due. When you request your 9 days off (+ 2days vacation if you want) each month, that is pretty much cast in stone. And the maintenance is certainly the best I've seen. I think most of the expat's would also agree.
KJ
I agree with most of your post, especially about always getting the 'Christmas Vacation' time off, generally true. However, for being here 8 years, and having NEVER had a schedule change? That would likely make you the only pilot in KAL (and maybe the world) ever to accomplish that record. I find it difficult to believe. Schedule changes don't happen often, but they do occur. (Except for the B744 guys a year or two ago. Their schedules were regularly changing, for months on end, faster than kimchee makes you fart) And, ask those fellows that came from Emirates to KAL. They were Expats before KAL, but to hear them talk, their transtion from EK was not easy at all.
As far as the 'cultural' points that have been mentioned here. Many of the F/O's are most certainly NOT happier working with their own. Some of the crustier Korean National Captains treat them like ****. You can see the tension in the other F/O' if you end up on a full crew long haul.
.. Also there is still a significant problem with communication. Some of the Pursers/crew do not speak English well at all. Most get by, but some can be quite poor. Imagine, smoke in the cabin... if the person on the other end of the interphone has difficuty with English, how well/bad might it turn out?
And also, a relatively new developement in the contract. You are now confirmed Economy class on your deadhead home, upgradeable Business. It does not happen often at all, but that one time the company sends you home, maybe a 12-13 hour flight, as a KAL Captain, in Economy.. yer gonna be pissed.
I will, however, give them full credit where it's due. When you request your 9 days off (+ 2days vacation if you want) each month, that is pretty much cast in stone. And the maintenance is certainly the best I've seen. I think most of the expat's would also agree.
KJ
Last edited by kimcheejones; 16th Nov 2013 at 13:55.
