Alternate callsign?
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: LHR
Posts: 331
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think in principle this is a good move. We used alphanumeric callsigns in my previous when callsign confusion became inevitable due to the number of flights - and it worked a treat.
Where this falls down is the fact that it will be a temporary callsign. If we are going to go down the alphanumeric route then it needs to be the callsign for the duration of the flight. Not the first 20mins or the last. The way to cure callsign confusion is not by applying multiple callsigns for different stages of the flight it'll just add to it.
Who thinks this stuff up?!
Where this falls down is the fact that it will be a temporary callsign. If we are going to go down the alphanumeric route then it needs to be the callsign for the duration of the flight. Not the first 20mins or the last. The way to cure callsign confusion is not by applying multiple callsigns for different stages of the flight it'll just add to it.
Who thinks this stuff up?!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Ethiopia for 20 & Orlando for 10
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Exactly!!!
Banana 
. Will the new VP be able to park in the unused spots on the first couple of floors in the parking lot at headquarters? And if so will there be an FCN or FCI announcing the opening before they appoint someone they want into that position??
. Will the new VP be able to park in the unused spots on the first couple of floors in the parking lot at headquarters? And if so will there be an FCN or FCI announcing the opening before they appoint someone they want into that position??
Last edited by Taylor01; 1st Oct 2013 at 10:51.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: UAE
Posts: 670
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guys I rarely post twice in the same thread on this forum as it's mainly for pilots., however this time I will make an exception.
I'm a TWR controller, but before I arrived in DXB I worked Radar for 15 years.
I really cannot believe that after flying 8/10/whatever hours changing your "known" call sign to something that means absolutely nothin to ATC is any sort of improvement to just listening out!!
So you've gotta call yourself EK19 from the UK until you reach yabubabi airspace and then all of a sudden it's gotta be EK19RD because you're running down wind to DXB with EK191.
Guys/Girls, maybe I am getting too old for this, but I really cannot see how changing your callsign to one that means nothing to neither you nor ATC can improve the nightly bun fight into DXB.
If I was even slightly cynical I might say that this idea came from someone not operationally aware, but I'm not cynical so I really don't believe that. ( In the best traditions of living here for a few years I think I've totally covered my arXe on this one)
PS. I am completely happy to be proved wrong, but occasionally i do get it right!
I'm a TWR controller, but before I arrived in DXB I worked Radar for 15 years.
I really cannot believe that after flying 8/10/whatever hours changing your "known" call sign to something that means absolutely nothin to ATC is any sort of improvement to just listening out!!
So you've gotta call yourself EK19 from the UK until you reach yabubabi airspace and then all of a sudden it's gotta be EK19RD because you're running down wind to DXB with EK191.
Guys/Girls, maybe I am getting too old for this, but I really cannot see how changing your callsign to one that means nothing to neither you nor ATC can improve the nightly bun fight into DXB.
If I was even slightly cynical I might say that this idea came from someone not operationally aware, but I'm not cynical so I really don't believe that. ( In the best traditions of living here for a few years I think I've totally covered my arXe on this one)
PS. I am completely happy to be proved wrong, but occasionally i do get it right!
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: UAE
Posts: 670
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Plaz, you're right I'm just a tower guy and I'm busy enough there to listen in to what's happening down/up - stream.
However I'm willing to bet i can call any random callsign and get a readback from someone from a different country.
( all the names in this story have been changed and bear no relevance to reality in this world or in any world near Dubai)!
However I'm willing to bet i can call any random callsign and get a readback from someone from a different country.
( all the names in this story have been changed and bear no relevance to reality in this world or in any world near Dubai)!
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Monrovia / Liberia
Age: 63
Posts: 757
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps the question that really needs to be asked is how come flight numbers to various destinations are so similar?... would it be so that when making a search for flights using various popular on-line travel-orientated search engines, one is as likely to find the EK123 to Bungabungaland, as one is to find FZ123 also to Bungabungaland ?!
IMHO, the Commercial 'brains' behind the flight number allocations need crash course in human factors!
IMHO, the Commercial 'brains' behind the flight number allocations need crash course in human factors!
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: earth
Posts: 1,098
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am all for using the 4-letter selcal code.
It's right at the end of every ATC flight plan, it's under our noses in the aircraft, it's way more random and less confusing than the sequential and similar tail numbers and it's already a legal way of contacting the respective flights.
But I want a Nadjim award for my brilliant idea!!!!!!
(or even better a random monthly US flight and next summer peak leave)
It's right at the end of every ATC flight plan, it's under our noses in the aircraft, it's way more random and less confusing than the sequential and similar tail numbers and it's already a legal way of contacting the respective flights.
But I want a Nadjim award for my brilliant idea!!!!!!
(or even better a random monthly US flight and next summer peak leave)
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near water
Posts: 207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the Tower environment it makes no sense as no matter what I call you Iran Air is still gonna read it back!!
Add to the above frequency attenuation over a 150 miles and mountains blocking your receiver and you have recipe for cock-up. A callsign means nothing, it's a form of address. I'm all for EK67DG and EK53FY etc. As far as I'm concerned you can call them Carrot and Pineapple and Kiwifruit. As long Watermelon answers when called
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Hell in a hand basket
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The way EK numbers flights is absolutely retarded. When I saw that during training I knew right then and there that the safety speeches were nothing but lip service.
Look at KMEM during Fedex's nightly pushes. No problem there. No stupid alpha tongue twisters needed. I've been in holding patterns northeast of KATL when fuel was less than $30/barrel for hours with 40+ other aircraft with 80% of those Delta with no problems at all. Virtually every one of those aircraft departed the northeast(same area) but their flight numbers weren't similar. I've also been #68 for departure in KATL with both parallel taxiways on the south side filled with departing aircraft. Asked if they could put the guy behind me ahead of me so I could be a more pleasing number but they didn't go for it.
I don't see the point of having all Africa 7's, India 5's, N. America 2's, etc. Only thing I see is it gives dork pilots with no life a warm fuzzy that they know useless information they can take back to their pals at their Dungeons and Dragons get togethers.
Look at KMEM during Fedex's nightly pushes. No problem there. No stupid alpha tongue twisters needed. I've been in holding patterns northeast of KATL when fuel was less than $30/barrel for hours with 40+ other aircraft with 80% of those Delta with no problems at all. Virtually every one of those aircraft departed the northeast(same area) but their flight numbers weren't similar. I've also been #68 for departure in KATL with both parallel taxiways on the south side filled with departing aircraft. Asked if they could put the guy behind me ahead of me so I could be a more pleasing number but they didn't go for it.
I don't see the point of having all Africa 7's, India 5's, N. America 2's, etc. Only thing I see is it gives dork pilots with no life a warm fuzzy that they know useless information they can take back to their pals at their Dungeons and Dragons get togethers.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near water
Posts: 207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't see the point of having all Africa 7's, India 5's, N. America 2's, etc.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BlueSkye,
Not at EK yet (in the hold pool) but that's what my (UK) airline does - we have random alphanumeric callsigns which we only use with ATC.
Works fine. Not any harder or easier than what we used to do - you just get on with it and concentrate on more important things to be honest!
We used to use the 4-digit flight number but we now use 2 digits and 2 letters (annotated on the flight plan and randomly generated). A small number of destinations have stipulated that our callsign has to be the flight number and, in this case, we use the 4-digit flight number like we used to.
We don't share the airspace with countless company aircraft - maybe one or two now and again. The change came about after quite a few incidents of callsign confusion within the company though.
Not at EK yet (in the hold pool) but that's what my (UK) airline does - we have random alphanumeric callsigns which we only use with ATC.
Works fine. Not any harder or easier than what we used to do - you just get on with it and concentrate on more important things to be honest!
We used to use the 4-digit flight number but we now use 2 digits and 2 letters (annotated on the flight plan and randomly generated). A small number of destinations have stipulated that our callsign has to be the flight number and, in this case, we use the 4-digit flight number like we used to.
We don't share the airspace with countless company aircraft - maybe one or two now and again. The change came about after quite a few incidents of callsign confusion within the company though.
Last edited by bucket_and_spade; 4th Oct 2013 at 15:14.
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Bed.
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not sure what all the excitement is about with this concept since the average EK pilot rarely uses his callsign anyway.
Entire conversations without the use of callsign are standard fare in the middle east and in Europe. Even ATC often don't bother using callsigns.
Entire conversations without the use of callsign are standard fare in the middle east and in Europe. Even ATC often don't bother using callsigns.
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: no fixed abode
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This "Alternate Callsign is a load of ****e....Can't they just swallow their pride and do what the rest (developed part) of the world has been doing for years now and use alpha-numeric callsigns. FFS. How hard can it be? Another waste of time and a poor initiative. Not to mind GCAA unable (again) to make a responsible decision. 
I am an en-route controller and quite frankly the situation is stupid. **** radios coupled with a few questionable operators and a company that INSISTS they schedule all their fleet at the same time with similar callsigns: Yes I've had ***36, ***136, ***46, ***56, ***148, ***48, ***748 all in the same hold at the same time.
Alternate callsigns is just going to make a bad situation worse. Does the flight plan really have to be the same as what the passengers see?? Lets try, ***74 from LFPG and change that one to ***74PG.......I could go on. Its a $10 fix!!! The indecision in this place is the pits......
Not long ago, a near breakdown in separation occurred in a hold because of this very problem involving 3 similar callsigns......Believe me its not gonna be long when someone finds themselves in the headlines (abroad, never here as it will be covered up) because of incompetence.......and again the poor controller gets a new *&%hole because he failed somehow. The system at the moment is set up to fail the controller. SMS basics....come on FFS!
I am an en-route controller and quite frankly the situation is stupid. **** radios coupled with a few questionable operators and a company that INSISTS they schedule all their fleet at the same time with similar callsigns: Yes I've had ***36, ***136, ***46, ***56, ***148, ***48, ***748 all in the same hold at the same time.
Alternate callsigns is just going to make a bad situation worse. Does the flight plan really have to be the same as what the passengers see?? Lets try, ***74 from LFPG and change that one to ***74PG.......I could go on. Its a $10 fix!!! The indecision in this place is the pits......
Not long ago, a near breakdown in separation occurred in a hold because of this very problem involving 3 similar callsigns......Believe me its not gonna be long when someone finds themselves in the headlines (abroad, never here as it will be covered up) because of incompetence.......and again the poor controller gets a new *&%hole because he failed somehow. The system at the moment is set up to fail the controller. SMS basics....come on FFS!
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: no fixed abode
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Heard of what been utilised exactly? Glad that alpha-numeric callsigns aren't used???
Airports have even changed their approach to how gates are numbered, particularly in the bigger ones. Studies have proven that passengers can remember and find their gate easier if its alpha-numeric.
Airports have even changed their approach to how gates are numbered, particularly in the bigger ones. Studies have proven that passengers can remember and find their gate easier if its alpha-numeric.
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: no fixed abode
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Varmint
Yes Varmint. The alternate callsigns procedure is in place only thru OMDB CTA right now. Really stupid idea if you ask me. Human Factors not accounted for at all.
