BOS to be a 30 hour layover...?
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BOS to be a 30 hour layover...?
Join Date: Dec 2011
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30 hrs is the magical number for the FLT's, so that it can be three crew. Same "Schedule Flight Time" as PER. Happy Days!!!!!!!
And we bitched about IAD.
How'd that turn out???
And we bitched about IAD.
How'd that turn out???
Join Date: Sep 2011
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We can only blame ourselves.
After an initial rush of ASRs on the IAD, the company simply replied with the cynical " .... it's all legal and the FRMS showed no problems .... ", our ASRs vanished.
I know its fatalistic or resignation, but it lets them get away with that fatiguing bs and in the end proves them right statistically: No complaints, no problem.
Keep up the ASRs and if you're not fit for flight, report unfit, even on outstations.
It's in our own hands, even legally!!!!!
After an initial rush of ASRs on the IAD, the company simply replied with the cynical " .... it's all legal and the FRMS showed no problems .... ", our ASRs vanished.
I know its fatalistic or resignation, but it lets them get away with that fatiguing bs and in the end proves them right statistically: No complaints, no problem.
Keep up the ASRs and if you're not fit for flight, report unfit, even on outstations.
It's in our own hands, even legally!!!!!
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Glofish
Yes.....and no. If there are elements of tiredness on your flight, use the fatigue reports. This is the way that data gets stored and fed back higher up the chain. Use an ASR when a safety error is made that is associated with that tiredness.
Do not stop submitting these reports regardless of comments made at the bottom of the ASR replies each week. Senior management IS responsible for setting these layover times and it's done to improve efficiency. This in turn increases profit but it's your neck on the line when the plane goes off the end not those counting their bonuses in Costa coffee HQ each year. Culpability is easier to prove when there's evidence, your reports provide that evidence!
Harry
Yes.....and no. If there are elements of tiredness on your flight, use the fatigue reports. This is the way that data gets stored and fed back higher up the chain. Use an ASR when a safety error is made that is associated with that tiredness.
Do not stop submitting these reports regardless of comments made at the bottom of the ASR replies each week. Senior management IS responsible for setting these layover times and it's done to improve efficiency. This in turn increases profit but it's your neck on the line when the plane goes off the end not those counting their bonuses in Costa coffee HQ each year. Culpability is easier to prove when there's evidence, your reports provide that evidence!
Harry
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harry
Yes ... and no.
Fatigue reports are reactive, if you really felt tired and under performance par due to rostering.
However I still regards ASRs as something not only reactive, when as you state we made a mistake due to fatigue, but just as much proactive, when a pattern seems blatantly flawed and fatigue most probably will happen.
Proactivity is a distinct characteristic required to get the fourth stripe, and it includes proactive ASRs.
Yes ... and no.
Fatigue reports are reactive, if you really felt tired and under performance par due to rostering.
However I still regards ASRs as something not only reactive, when as you state we made a mistake due to fatigue, but just as much proactive, when a pattern seems blatantly flawed and fatigue most probably will happen.
Proactivity is a distinct characteristic required to get the fourth stripe, and it includes proactive ASRs.
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glofish
Look, I don't think we're in disagreement that these short layovers are not ideal. They fall within a time band that is not recommended for suitable rest and it's a joke that the GCAA ever allowed it. It should be at least 30 hrs to allow for two rest periods. However, you can't put in an ASR just because you don't like it. ASR's can be proactive, I agree, but when tiredness or fatigue is an issue, there has to be evidence that these actual concerns impacted on the safety of the operation. Otherwise, use the fatigue reports if you're genuinely tired as these are the best way for the Company to collect this data.
If you're concerned about the potential threat, you can also use a Confidential Safety Report to highlight that the layovers are not long enough.
The problem is, there is nowhere near the number of reports being submitted that would require senior management to take a closer look. It's all about risk analysis and without the reports, in their eyes, there is no risk!
Harry
Look, I don't think we're in disagreement that these short layovers are not ideal. They fall within a time band that is not recommended for suitable rest and it's a joke that the GCAA ever allowed it. It should be at least 30 hrs to allow for two rest periods. However, you can't put in an ASR just because you don't like it. ASR's can be proactive, I agree, but when tiredness or fatigue is an issue, there has to be evidence that these actual concerns impacted on the safety of the operation. Otherwise, use the fatigue reports if you're genuinely tired as these are the best way for the Company to collect this data.
If you're concerned about the potential threat, you can also use a Confidential Safety Report to highlight that the layovers are not long enough.
The problem is, there is nowhere near the number of reports being submitted that would require senior management to take a closer look. It's all about risk analysis and without the reports, in their eyes, there is no risk!
Harry
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Agreed, the essential is that there is some sort of report. It's then a matter of how far some of those go, or how easily they can be canned and disregarded.
To me a two sleep pattern layover is not less than 36h. Flights to the East Coast and Australia should all have a minimum of 36h rest.
To me a two sleep pattern layover is not less than 36h. Flights to the East Coast and Australia should all have a minimum of 36h rest.
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Here we go again. A coupla unhappy wife hating pussies can't handle a 30hr layover and the world is going to end. Someone please go get these guys a hot cup of cement.
The best part of this is company is the variety. Variety in nationalities, lifestyles and destinations. Some people like the short layovers, gives them more time at home with their families in Dubai. Some people like the long layovers, gives them more time away from their families in Dubai.
If you don't want to do a 30hr BOS IAD or JFK, stop your crying and go bid BKK SYD. I'm sure your 48 hour layover in SYD after the arduous 6.5 hour CHC turn will make you happy.
Even better, just bid to AVOID BOS IAD and JFK all together.. Oh ****.. that's right, can't bid for that anymore
The best part of this is company is the variety. Variety in nationalities, lifestyles and destinations. Some people like the short layovers, gives them more time at home with their families in Dubai. Some people like the long layovers, gives them more time away from their families in Dubai.
If you don't want to do a 30hr BOS IAD or JFK, stop your crying and go bid BKK SYD. I'm sure your 48 hour layover in SYD after the arduous 6.5 hour CHC turn will make you happy.
Even better, just bid to AVOID BOS IAD and JFK all together.. Oh ****.. that's right, can't bid for that anymore
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You are any airline manager's wet dream, mate!
..... and most probably the guy who takes three 45' "controlled" rests with duvet, 2 pillows and a more than clear "instruction" to the hostie not to knock for the next hour ..... the FO can stay awake during that time.
Any experienced professional, not only medically trained, knows that rest smaller than combined duty time is almost criminal and on LH flights longer than 12h and over more than 6 time zones you need 2 sleep cycles to perform adequately.
This however might not apply to superheroes like you, but then again regulations should be written for the average guys like me ....
You are any airline manager's wet dream, mate!
..... and most probably the guy who takes three 45' "controlled" rests with duvet, 2 pillows and a more than clear "instruction" to the hostie not to knock for the next hour ..... the FO can stay awake during that time.
Any experienced professional, not only medically trained, knows that rest smaller than combined duty time is almost criminal and on LH flights longer than 12h and over more than 6 time zones you need 2 sleep cycles to perform adequately.
This however might not apply to superheroes like you, but then again regulations should be written for the average guys like me ....
Last edited by glofish; 1st Oct 2013 at 11:19.
