Be careful when fishing. This one has a big bite.
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While it sucks what happened, you can't go charging at a US Naval ship and not expect some action. My understanding is they gave out several warnings before firing, and the offending ship didn't respond or change course.
And yes I wish Ron Paul stood a chance, but unfortunately, it's going to be more of the same crap with Obama or Romney.
And yes I wish Ron Paul stood a chance, but unfortunately, it's going to be more of the same crap with Obama or Romney.
Thread Starter
As an aside ironbutt, Ex380 has spent more time in a military career than his airline one. So, using your logic it would give him some cred in being " arrogant pricks".
Remember this Oiler had mostly civilian crew embarked. The protection team on board were contractors. It is action like this by contractors that put serving members greater at risk.
The Don
Remember this Oiler had mostly civilian crew embarked. The protection team on board were contractors. It is action like this by contractors that put serving members greater at risk.
The Don
Thread Starter
Flyer, they were not charging a USN ship, they were entering port and overtaking the vessel. Ever been to north Island when a Carrier is on the way in or out? No one sits back and waits, there nor here.
There is no published notice to mariners stating that USN or any military vessels are to be avoided by any set distance. There is nothing published about horns and whistles being the precursor to being fired upon. Just because some Contractor thinks blowing a horn is a warning doesn't mean anyone else understands what it means.
The Don
There is no published notice to mariners stating that USN or any military vessels are to be avoided by any set distance. There is nothing published about horns and whistles being the precursor to being fired upon. Just because some Contractor thinks blowing a horn is a warning doesn't mean anyone else understands what it means.
The Don
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"If the Yanks did not have such an appalling foreign policy record, then perhaps they would not be targeted every where they go." EX 380
Was our appalling foreign policy such a bad thing when we saved your ass not once but twice last century? How many trillion of dollars did we as "Yanks" have to spend to protect your tiny little island so you didn't have to. How many "Yanks" died on your continent because you as a country were not up to the task.
Was this the same foreign policy you find so appalling.
Give credit where credit it do. You would be speaking German right now if it wasn't for the appalling Yanks and yes that is arrogant. I am pissed off that we spent all that money and treasure for you ungrateful sap.
What did you do in the military X380?
I rememeber years ago a British general came and spoke to a civic group in America. He gave a lecture and it waas interesting and everything but towards the end of it he said he would like for the Americans to leave the continent of Europe and especially England. He had his points but someone in the group asked the general if we pulled out would he guarantee never to ask the Americans to come to England's or Europe's aid and send men and material. He didn't answer and moved quickly to end the lecture.
Maybe you would like the Chinese to protect you?
Was our appalling foreign policy such a bad thing when we saved your ass not once but twice last century? How many trillion of dollars did we as "Yanks" have to spend to protect your tiny little island so you didn't have to. How many "Yanks" died on your continent because you as a country were not up to the task.
Was this the same foreign policy you find so appalling.
Give credit where credit it do. You would be speaking German right now if it wasn't for the appalling Yanks and yes that is arrogant. I am pissed off that we spent all that money and treasure for you ungrateful sap.
What did you do in the military X380?
I rememeber years ago a British general came and spoke to a civic group in America. He gave a lecture and it waas interesting and everything but towards the end of it he said he would like for the Americans to leave the continent of Europe and especially England. He had his points but someone in the group asked the general if we pulled out would he guarantee never to ask the Americans to come to England's or Europe's aid and send men and material. He didn't answer and moved quickly to end the lecture.
Maybe you would like the Chinese to protect you?
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think ex380 is aussie, but will never admit it as he's a little confused about his own nationality when he's too busy playing American wanna-be riding his Harley Davidson around Dubai.
At any rate, it doesn't matter which country you're from. Some of the coolest guys at EK are both from UK, AUS etc... Its a melting pot of 3500 pilots.
We are one pilot group and people like don and ex380 destroy morale by their immature rants and generalizations. And I'm not even sure if don and ex380 are the same person with two different accounts. It would be sad if you defend yourself with multiple logins as if you had friends.
This would be a non issue if it was another NATO country ship. It sounds like ex-380 and don were first hand witnesses to the accident so I guess we should trust their discriminative views.
Why do you hate America so much? Jealously? What happened? did JFK controllers hurt your feelings one night? make you feel small? Compensating for vertically challenged deficiency? aka. short pilot syndrome?
who knows, anyway, life is too short to be so angry. Be happy America is protecting Dubai and UAE.
get over it and grow up.
At any rate, it doesn't matter which country you're from. Some of the coolest guys at EK are both from UK, AUS etc... Its a melting pot of 3500 pilots.
We are one pilot group and people like don and ex380 destroy morale by their immature rants and generalizations. And I'm not even sure if don and ex380 are the same person with two different accounts. It would be sad if you defend yourself with multiple logins as if you had friends.
This would be a non issue if it was another NATO country ship. It sounds like ex-380 and don were first hand witnesses to the accident so I guess we should trust their discriminative views.
Why do you hate America so much? Jealously? What happened? did JFK controllers hurt your feelings one night? make you feel small? Compensating for vertically challenged deficiency? aka. short pilot syndrome?
who knows, anyway, life is too short to be so angry. Be happy America is protecting Dubai and UAE.
get over it and grow up.
Last edited by pilotday; 22nd Jul 2012 at 00:19.
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You can spout opinion all ya want ex 380, but they are your biases, and your anti american political views are getting in the way of an intelligent argument should you actually be capable of one. Blaming the shoot up in Colorado on american gun laws reeks of ignorance. Hey there has been a couple shoot ups in a mall in Toronto lately, must be those canadian gun laws and bad canadian attitudes that brought that upon them eh? 
Facts in this case are very clear. An american naval ship is not a rare thing in the Gulf, and approach one at your peril. They tried going with no force protection plan and some deranged idiots drove a leaky little boat loaded with lots of stuff that goes boom into the side of a billion dollar Arleigh Burke destroyer and cost 17 navy lives. Now they have force protection on board and very clear well publicized rules of engagement that aren't a secret to anyone. As a boat captain in the Gulf it's your job to be aware of them and abide by the rules..if you don't then you get dead or sunk or both.
They warned the ship off, including warning shots. If you are too unaware and unprofessional to realize that you are in danger approaching a US navy ship in a speedboat in the Gulf and ignore warnings then you really are a master of your own demise. No trigger happy "yanks" there, just simply professional military men doing their job as force protection.
And Don you are incorrect..500 yards is the Naval Vessel Protection Zone, requires slow speed and radio contact, and never closer than 100 yards and it's public knowledge. Look it up if you will. If i know that and i'm not a captain of a commercial boat then there isn't really an excuse for not knowing it. They were also 10 miles out of port, so it's hardly a case of they were heading into port and couldn't avoid them.
You can argue American foreign policy all you want, but at the end of the day if I had to have a country as my ally that most reflected the values in a world where my kids are growing up it would be the Americans. That's my opinion, but it really doesn't affect the facts of the incident off the Jebel Ali coast.
Facts in this case are very clear. An american naval ship is not a rare thing in the Gulf, and approach one at your peril. They tried going with no force protection plan and some deranged idiots drove a leaky little boat loaded with lots of stuff that goes boom into the side of a billion dollar Arleigh Burke destroyer and cost 17 navy lives. Now they have force protection on board and very clear well publicized rules of engagement that aren't a secret to anyone. As a boat captain in the Gulf it's your job to be aware of them and abide by the rules..if you don't then you get dead or sunk or both.
They warned the ship off, including warning shots. If you are too unaware and unprofessional to realize that you are in danger approaching a US navy ship in a speedboat in the Gulf and ignore warnings then you really are a master of your own demise. No trigger happy "yanks" there, just simply professional military men doing their job as force protection.
And Don you are incorrect..500 yards is the Naval Vessel Protection Zone, requires slow speed and radio contact, and never closer than 100 yards and it's public knowledge. Look it up if you will. If i know that and i'm not a captain of a commercial boat then there isn't really an excuse for not knowing it. They were also 10 miles out of port, so it's hardly a case of they were heading into port and couldn't avoid them.
You can argue American foreign policy all you want, but at the end of the day if I had to have a country as my ally that most reflected the values in a world where my kids are growing up it would be the Americans. That's my opinion, but it really doesn't affect the facts of the incident off the Jebel Ali coast.
Last edited by tbaylx; 22nd Jul 2012 at 03:51.
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I'm probably not as well informed as you guys on topical US affairs but I take a simplistic view.
The Indian/UAE boat may have been stupid and made a mistake.
I don't know the conditions on the day but visibility and seaspray can obscure vision. That US ship does not have a distinct warship profile. A quick glance at the picture and it looks to me like a regular ship.
I doubt the UAE boat would have continued its course in the face of a clear warning. Even with the warnings given, clearly they were inadaquate.
It was not a terrorist attack and now one of them is dead.
The US ship firing on the UAE boat may be understandable, however, where I come from, a perceived need to defend yourself has never been a reasonable legal defense for killing innocent people(aka murder).
People need to be held accountable for their actions, even if it is understandable. I believe it's called manslaughter.
As a 'superpower' the US should hold itself to a higher standard than this......with power comes responsibility. And, yup, if they going go around killing people at will, then we may just as well be protected by the Chinese.....same thing isn't it?
@tbaylx, I have to admit that I am not a fan of US foreign policy, although I agree with you, its a nice country internally(finances aside). However, surely even you have to admit that this cinema shooting is bizarre and your people are asking themeslves how this guy bought 6000 rounds of ammunition without raising suspicion. Freedom has it's limits and I have yet to understand what ordinary citizens need fully automatic rifles for?
Also, I should point out that in the UAE there is no requirement to have a skippers licence for small boats, so why would these guys have known about the 'special' rules of engagement for a US warship? There is no list of rules available domestically, so these guys would not have been aware of these special requirements unless they had googled them beforehand.
The Indian/UAE boat may have been stupid and made a mistake.
I don't know the conditions on the day but visibility and seaspray can obscure vision. That US ship does not have a distinct warship profile. A quick glance at the picture and it looks to me like a regular ship.
I doubt the UAE boat would have continued its course in the face of a clear warning. Even with the warnings given, clearly they were inadaquate.
It was not a terrorist attack and now one of them is dead.
The US ship firing on the UAE boat may be understandable, however, where I come from, a perceived need to defend yourself has never been a reasonable legal defense for killing innocent people(aka murder).
People need to be held accountable for their actions, even if it is understandable. I believe it's called manslaughter.
As a 'superpower' the US should hold itself to a higher standard than this......with power comes responsibility. And, yup, if they going go around killing people at will, then we may just as well be protected by the Chinese.....same thing isn't it?
@tbaylx, I have to admit that I am not a fan of US foreign policy, although I agree with you, its a nice country internally(finances aside). However, surely even you have to admit that this cinema shooting is bizarre and your people are asking themeslves how this guy bought 6000 rounds of ammunition without raising suspicion. Freedom has it's limits and I have yet to understand what ordinary citizens need fully automatic rifles for?
Also, I should point out that in the UAE there is no requirement to have a skippers licence for small boats, so why would these guys have known about the 'special' rules of engagement for a US warship? There is no list of rules available domestically, so these guys would not have been aware of these special requirements unless they had googled them beforehand.
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Let the investigation which will no doubt include UAE officials bear the results...just like any of you/us would appreciate if WE were involved in an aircraft incident....right?? I am a regular pleasure boater, and yes there are no "rules of non-engagement" available to us...maybe what comes as common sense to one, may not to another...sad for the people who lost their lives..
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Maybe you would like the Chinese to protect you?
Please don't dishonour the millions of lives lost throughout all the allied forces over WW1 and WW2.
The US forces played a major role in Northern France as you so politely explained to someone who is 100% not British in your post.
Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.
Gas! Gas! Quick, boys! – An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime. . .
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.
If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est,
Pro patria mori.
Last edited by Craggenmore; 22nd Jul 2012 at 18:45.
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380,
Your obviously not aware of the strict protocol for a US navy ship to open fire. I can assure you warnings were definatly given. You can't just open fire at will. Whether the warnings were taken the correct way or understood is obviously an issue, but usually some shots across the direction of the risk vessel are given and if you can't understand what that means, well boating may not be your thing.
Whether or not you agree with US foreign policy, the world and especially the gulf would be a very different place without US presence. Debatable whether better or worse depending if your country benifits, which most gulf countries benifit greatly.
And for the record please tell us which government is not completly screwed up and corrupt. The US is criticized if they act and critisized if they don't act, unfortunately as your government does it acts in its own best intrests, it's positions are more visible due to the fact it's a superpower and it has more capability to influence outcomes.
380, do you always make assumptions with one side of the story? Talk about trigger happy
..
Your obviously not aware of the strict protocol for a US navy ship to open fire. I can assure you warnings were definatly given. You can't just open fire at will. Whether the warnings were taken the correct way or understood is obviously an issue, but usually some shots across the direction of the risk vessel are given and if you can't understand what that means, well boating may not be your thing.
Whether or not you agree with US foreign policy, the world and especially the gulf would be a very different place without US presence. Debatable whether better or worse depending if your country benifits, which most gulf countries benifit greatly.
And for the record please tell us which government is not completly screwed up and corrupt. The US is criticized if they act and critisized if they don't act, unfortunately as your government does it acts in its own best intrests, it's positions are more visible due to the fact it's a superpower and it has more capability to influence outcomes.
380, do you always make assumptions with one side of the story? Talk about trigger happy
..
Last edited by drive73; 22nd Jul 2012 at 11:51.
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Ex380
If you are in fact Australian, may your family rest a little more secure tonight knowing that American tax dollars are paying for that new 2500 man USMC base in Northern Australia as counterweight to Chinese posturing in the Pacific.
No thanks necessary...but a tipped cap...very much appreciated.
f.
If you are in fact Australian, may your family rest a little more secure tonight knowing that American tax dollars are paying for that new 2500 man USMC base in Northern Australia as counterweight to Chinese posturing in the Pacific.
No thanks necessary...but a tipped cap...very much appreciated.
f.
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I think the people of South Vietnam had a warm feeling of protection from the USMC not too long ago. Until the brave protectors ran away and left them to their own devices against the nasty communists. They didn't rest too easy in their beds. Perhaps we better not talk about that one eh! Quit the chest beating filion and grow up.
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Vf,
The problem with the Vietnam war and the others that have been fought after were rules of engagement, which the western world tries to abide by. Unfortunately, when one side fights with a set of rules and the other doesn't it is a war that cannot be won. Sometimes it's better to throw the baby out with the bath water, instead of slowly and inefectivly trying to not injure the innocent, who pay dearly whether they are killed or just live in a war zone for years losing friends, family, and dreams.
The problem with the Vietnam war and the others that have been fought after were rules of engagement, which the western world tries to abide by. Unfortunately, when one side fights with a set of rules and the other doesn't it is a war that cannot be won. Sometimes it's better to throw the baby out with the bath water, instead of slowly and inefectivly trying to not injure the innocent, who pay dearly whether they are killed or just live in a war zone for years losing friends, family, and dreams.
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Wow... where does one begin?
Anyone who lives in the UAE knows that Indians and Emiratis will NEVER EVER admit to being wrong... can't lose face... let's not even go into Indian competence... remember habibi, cheaper is better.
On the other hand... the US military in general has very restrictive rules of engagement... gotta maintain the whole political-correctness until the very last possible minute. Sadly, many American lives have been lost due to political correctness. 380 brought up Somalia as fail. Right... because of political correctness. SecDef didn't want to authorize tanks or AC-130 as it was "too high profile and too much firepower." Really??!
I won't even go into the political correctness BS that has taken place during subsequent actions/conflicts, but rest assured it's sickening and not worth a single American life.
I feel sorry for the guy that lost his life in this tragic incident, but it was an appropriate response from the US Navy given no response and time to make the call.
Anyone who lives in the UAE knows that Indians and Emiratis will NEVER EVER admit to being wrong... can't lose face... let's not even go into Indian competence... remember habibi, cheaper is better.
On the other hand... the US military in general has very restrictive rules of engagement... gotta maintain the whole political-correctness until the very last possible minute. Sadly, many American lives have been lost due to political correctness. 380 brought up Somalia as fail. Right... because of political correctness. SecDef didn't want to authorize tanks or AC-130 as it was "too high profile and too much firepower." Really??!
I won't even go into the political correctness BS that has taken place during subsequent actions/conflicts, but rest assured it's sickening and not worth a single American life.
I feel sorry for the guy that lost his life in this tragic incident, but it was an appropriate response from the US Navy given no response and time to make the call.
Last edited by BeCareful; 22nd Jul 2012 at 11:23.
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The local Navy liaison officers should in conduction with the local coast guard folks post flyers regarding do's n donut's when operating pleasure craft in the vicinity of military/civilian support vessels....and make big simple posters available at all marinas and piers...I wonder if they were trying to out run the ship and cross it's bow?? Most of us know this is a no-no, and to give way when any military vessel, US or otherwise approaches....apparently these poor fellows didn't...and one wouldn't expect them to....
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drive 73, are these the same rules of engagement which were used during the My Lai massacre and the countless other events in that and other US engagements? If you need an excuse try something more credible.
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Just everybody calm down and wait...the same folks bagging the trigger-happy Yanks, will be crying for help again in the future...history is doomed to repeat itself...