EK DECs now on seniority list
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If the RJs are doing the same flying as the 737 or 320s why don't they get paid the same as the Big Boys? Why don't they have the same upgrade pass percentage as the Big Boys? Why don't they have the same contract as the Big Boys?
RJ pilots are different and everyone knows it including the RJ pilots and the Training Dept.
RJ pilots are different and everyone knows it including the RJ pilots and the Training Dept.
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RJ pilots are different and everyone knows it including the RJ pilots and the Training Dept.
The RJ problems were caused by certain nationalities that grudges against others, an EMB 190 is much more advanced than 330, just a mafioso excuse to keep certain folks out
Bet if those 'unprepared' RJ pilots had been from a certain desert continent (the TRUE sub-continent) south of the equator, their training would have gone much differently....
Bet if those 'unprepared' RJ pilots had been from a certain desert continent (the TRUE sub-continent) south of the equator, their training would have gone much differently....
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My take on this... And not to take away from RJ experience... In general (and that's likley how recruiters would make their criteria) as FOs the Captains you fly with are much more experienced on an Airbus/Boeing narrow body vs an RJ... Why? Because reigonal flying sucks. At my company there is about 15 yrs extra under the skippers belts 320 vs the EMJ. And as FOs you are learning from these guys particularly with learning a commas style.
Also the crew size... 5 FAs on an A321 vs 1 on the CRJ200... It adds a different dynamic. Different issues come up, chain of command, conflicts in the back etc. And keep in mind you will have 15ish on the 777 I beleive.
So yes flight ops wise. Your RJ needs the same performance data goes the same altitudes at the same weather but you walk away with more from the slightly bigger airplanes. And I have flown ERJ, 737 and A320 series... So I am look from both sides. And this may be the recruiters view.
Again, nothing against RJ guys but I'd like to point out there are some things to benifit from that mid weight step.
Also the crew size... 5 FAs on an A321 vs 1 on the CRJ200... It adds a different dynamic. Different issues come up, chain of command, conflicts in the back etc. And keep in mind you will have 15ish on the 777 I beleive.
So yes flight ops wise. Your RJ needs the same performance data goes the same altitudes at the same weather but you walk away with more from the slightly bigger airplanes. And I have flown ERJ, 737 and A320 series... So I am look from both sides. And this may be the recruiters view.
Again, nothing against RJ guys but I'd like to point out there are some things to benifit from that mid weight step.
Gentlemen (and Ladies), the problem really doesn't stem from previous type-it is about attitude. EK does not spoon feed-you are expected to know what is required to upgrade, and prepare yourself accordingly. This is a major part of the problem. Many have passed the Upgrade with EK, some have failed. Why are the statistics different to other 'legacy' carriers. IMHO one of the main contributing factors is cultural. Who else has this many nationalities in a cockpit. Different cultures have different expectations. Look at the differences required to gain an ATPL as far as exams go in different continents. As far as the RJ drivers go-most of them have come from an environment that was effectively monocultural-from Cabin Crew to Ground Crew to ATC. Yes the flying can be very challenging-but generally that's not why people fail an upgrade. It is management-as has been said before.As an aside, a lot has been said here about 600hr TRI's where EK has been their only Command time-just curious-does anyone know how many we actually have. I am guessing that the number is very small. Meeting minimums in any job doesn't necessarily give you the job. FWIW I do not agree with the need for DEC's, but as has also been said, there is NO ONE here that doesn't already have a LHS, that didn't know about the possibility.
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I understand your point GTFD, but that is not what is being discussed here, the argument is that an individual that flew lets say 8,000 hours from which lets say 3,000 are PIC on your average US regional airline, then went to EK and for the past 5 years has been flying the heavier equipment, has been watching other captains operate, has witnessed the operation and the different dynamics that you spoke about, that is at least 3,500 to 4,000 hours on property and somehow because of his experience before he came to EK is the reason they can't pass the upgrade assessment???
There is this certain stigma about the whole US regional industry and i am speaking about the industry in the US because for some reason the guys flying regional jets in other countries (the EU for example) feel that they are above the fray, a year or so ago I came across this fellow on an overnight, the conversation went from the pilot shortage to the colgan accident to the 1,500 requirement, then he went on the typical RJ'S rampage, after a couple more cold ones and other topics, it turn into where he was working, well, he is a regional pilot for one of the EU carriers that for the purpose of this example shall remain nameless, at that point when I mentioned that he was flying a regional jet himself, his response was that it is not the same because he is working under the EU standards
nice!
There is this certain stigma about the whole US regional industry and i am speaking about the industry in the US because for some reason the guys flying regional jets in other countries (the EU for example) feel that they are above the fray, a year or so ago I came across this fellow on an overnight, the conversation went from the pilot shortage to the colgan accident to the 1,500 requirement, then he went on the typical RJ'S rampage, after a couple more cold ones and other topics, it turn into where he was working, well, he is a regional pilot for one of the EU carriers that for the purpose of this example shall remain nameless, at that point when I mentioned that he was flying a regional jet himself, his response was that it is not the same because he is working under the EU standards
nice!
Last edited by The Dominican; 5th Jul 2012 at 14:20.
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Yes, good point. Im still recruitment oriented
. You'd certainly expect after years on the property there shouldn't be any issues. But I still see upgrade issues at every company. It's scary from the corprate point of view because each captain is responsible for the brand and the assets each departure. Most single employees can't destroy a brand with a bad decision.
. You'd certainly expect after years on the property there shouldn't be any issues. But I still see upgrade issues at every company. It's scary from the corprate point of view because each captain is responsible for the brand and the assets each departure. Most single employees can't destroy a brand with a bad decision.
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An upgrade course should have a 90% pass rate and if a candidate fails, it should be the INSTRUCTOR'S fault.
There are also FOs who might struggle to the standard but will always require a close eye. Is that fair? Do you want to ride in the back with him/her flying?
Most of the fails I've heard of lately have been known to be struggling on a good day or else just plain lazy.
early 70s airlines were putting 200 hour Draft Dodgers in the right seat of 707s and they did not have the problmes Emirates is having with the RJ pilots.
If they were smart enough to dodge the draft to a futile war, maybe they were smarter than your average RJ pilot and made it to the LHS on merit.
It's been pointed out that the RJ is just like a larger jet in every way except mass. If you're looking for a common link to explain the problems the RJ guys have, it might be time to consider their common background which is notable for slack SOPs, lack of adherence to procedures, cowboy attitude and poor quality RT... all of which we are now seeing at EK. They also all come from one continent. You may not find that palatable but there it is....
The disturbing news is, when they DO finally pass, they'll be instructors in SIX MONTHS.
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No Chip on That Shoulder!
[QUOTE]They also all come from one continent. You may not find that palatable but there it is....
/QUOTE]
What a shame that there is such a shallow point of view.
You must be a bloody nightmare to work with.
Get over yourself
/QUOTE]
What a shame that there is such a shallow point of view.
You must be a bloody nightmare to work with.
Get over yourself
Last edited by Fearless Leader; 5th Jul 2012 at 15:26.
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We have the highest percentage of clowns and idiots in Training NOW, than at any other time in the history of EK.
But sitting, if you are such a superior pilot, instead of bitching about training department YOU should join and change something for the benefit of all of us...
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If the RJs are doing the same flying as the 737 or 320s why don't they get paid the same as the Big Boys? Why don't they have the same upgrade pass percentage as the Big Boys? Why don't they have the same contract as the Big Boys?
RJ pilots are different and everyone knows it including the RJ pilots and the Training Dept.
RJ pilots are different and everyone knows it including the RJ pilots and the Training Dept.
They also all come from one continent. You may not find that palatable but there it is....
BTW show me the pass rate of the RJs and your claim about only RJ pilots failing. They don't get the same contract as big guys because they are trapped in a bureaucratic system full of BS and unions, nothing to do with skills or actual flying. For your own information the 320/737 guys in the states do the same EXACTLY flying as the RJ ones. Look Southwest,United,US airways,Virgin, JeBlue etc etc.
As far as the Poor RT you should blame the FAA standards and the training schools not the pilots themselves . Listen to Fedex,United,Delta many guys have the RT habits of flying in US airspace and they fly big boys too.
Last edited by Fear_of_heights; 5th Jul 2012 at 15:57.
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BTW show me the pass rate of the RJs and your claim about only RJ pilots failing
ATTITUDE AND ABILITY
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Shiitting idly, good to see you're back on your medication. Good post apart from the bit about blaming the training dept for failed upgrades, which is still off the mark.
If you don't want to blame the candidates, for letting themselves down, and you need someone else to blame, then maybe you should look at the recruitment dep't. They're the ones letting in "potential captains" who do not have (or do not demonstrate) the potential.
Quote of the Week.
You must be from Generation Y or Me or whatever they call it. Always looking for someone to blame apart from yourself. Pick up a copy of the regs (and the EK manuals) and do your own work.
If you don't want to blame the candidates, for letting themselves down, and you need someone else to blame, then maybe you should look at the recruitment dep't. They're the ones letting in "potential captains" who do not have (or do not demonstrate) the potential.
you should blame the FAA standards and the training schools not the pilots themselves
You must be from Generation Y or Me or whatever they call it. Always looking for someone to blame apart from yourself. Pick up a copy of the regs (and the EK manuals) and do your own work.
Last edited by HamFan; 6th Jul 2012 at 01:05.
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It would be interesting to see the aeronautical history of those who feel progression from RJ to "big boys" isn't feasible....
If one or two trainees has issues, then look at the trainees, if it becomes a high percentage then look at your training dept...
If one or two trainees has issues, then look at the trainees, if it becomes a high percentage then look at your training dept...
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Go spend a year on a regional jet in the continental USA, then tell me about incompetent....have a look at schedule patterns, equipment, and airspace complexity, airports, and last but not least, weather conditions they operate in day in and day out.....
Maybe knowledge level to OBTAIN the license is "back to basics", but the flying experience gained subsequently at any jet-flying regional requires a skill level on par with anything else out there.....ask yourselves what % of the tech knowledge (omitted on the FAA exam,) you were required to pass to get your JAA, Ozzie, or similar, is actually put to use in your big boy day-to-day ops.
Maybe knowledge level to OBTAIN the license is "back to basics", but the flying experience gained subsequently at any jet-flying regional requires a skill level on par with anything else out there.....ask yourselves what % of the tech knowledge (omitted on the FAA exam,) you were required to pass to get your JAA, Ozzie, or similar, is actually put to use in your big boy day-to-day ops.
Last edited by ironbutt57; 6th Jul 2012 at 07:25.
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The issue with these guys is not whether they can fly it's their soft skills, leadership and management, abilities that you either have or don't have.
The reason they came from an RJ is because they started there as 200 hour co-pilots, they haven't flown 737's or A320's because they didn't have the experience at the time. Some of them, with the right attitude perform no different to any other pilot however with the others there is a tendency to be weak in the skills required to be a Captain.
Mark my words, EK will still be experiencing this in years to come. There is even a distinct difference between the new joiners from Jet2.Com, Easy jet and Ryan Air. The foundation training, from each airline is remarkably different and very noticeable, Jet2 and easy jet are much better trained than Ryan air guys - it goes with the territory!
My prediction is that DEC's will be employed in this airline for years to come.
The reason they came from an RJ is because they started there as 200 hour co-pilots, they haven't flown 737's or A320's because they didn't have the experience at the time. Some of them, with the right attitude perform no different to any other pilot however with the others there is a tendency to be weak in the skills required to be a Captain.
Mark my words, EK will still be experiencing this in years to come. There is even a distinct difference between the new joiners from Jet2.Com, Easy jet and Ryan Air. The foundation training, from each airline is remarkably different and very noticeable, Jet2 and easy jet are much better trained than Ryan air guys - it goes with the territory!
My prediction is that DEC's will be employed in this airline for years to come.
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again, they are recruiting DEC's for 27 years, why would they stop now? they never will, they run a business and can do whatever they want, if its good or bad for the individual they dont care.
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Pilots who came from regional airlines were not at regional airlines because they had sub par skills. They were there and not able to get hired at a major for two reasons, 9/11 and the retirement age changing from 60 to 65. These two events ( combined with shrinking capacity due to airline consolidation ie. mergers) are the reason why pilots from the US regional industry have not moved up the career ladder (in most cases). It is because there were only a hand full of jobs added in the past decade. It has little, if nothing to do with skill. It has to do with timing.
As for the quality of guys who came off 50-90 seat jets, many of us are now Capts here and are excelling. Has it been different from the flying we used to do? Sure. Does that change the fact that the only way to be successful at any airline is to adapt, absorb, and prepare? No. Don't let a few random cowboys ruin your opinion of the nationality as a whole. I never do when it comes to other nationalities.
Lastly a quick question. Exactly how many years will I have to fly here before I'm not a RJ pilot anymore? 5, 10, when I retire in 25 years will there be an * next to my name because at one time in my career I flew a CRJ?
I think its time to get back to talking about DECs because this discussion is sadly misguided.
As for the quality of guys who came off 50-90 seat jets, many of us are now Capts here and are excelling. Has it been different from the flying we used to do? Sure. Does that change the fact that the only way to be successful at any airline is to adapt, absorb, and prepare? No. Don't let a few random cowboys ruin your opinion of the nationality as a whole. I never do when it comes to other nationalities.
Lastly a quick question. Exactly how many years will I have to fly here before I'm not a RJ pilot anymore? 5, 10, when I retire in 25 years will there be an * next to my name because at one time in my career I flew a CRJ?
I think its time to get back to talking about DECs because this discussion is sadly misguided.
Last edited by FUSE PLUG; 7th Jul 2012 at 03:54.