EK 380 Diversion to Ottawa and Low Fuel Emergency
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wiz
that's why I added the 'fuel advisory' for the more US prone, but it's the same and it's what should have been used.
A prophylactic emergency is nonsense, anybody can declare that they might run into emergency if held back any further.
Dugong or pencil-jet, that's the coming in line and sop, at least the way I see it.
that's why I added the 'fuel advisory' for the more US prone, but it's the same and it's what should have been used.
A prophylactic emergency is nonsense, anybody can declare that they might run into emergency if held back any further.
Dugong or pencil-jet, that's the coming in line and sop, at least the way I see it.
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The guys did a flight from A to B, carried a bit of extra fuel for weather, spent most of that fuel in holding due weather, flew an approach, missed approach and diverted to their alternate airport where they landed with more than their required final reserve.
Why exactly are we discussing this?
Why exactly are we discussing this?
hahaJoin Date: Jan 2012
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You are right Mana, normally we wouldn't be discussing this, but it is being discussed because the Air Canada spin machine is doing all it can to create negative coverage of EK in the Canadian media. Good on the Aviation Herald to set things straight.
I'm actually surprised the articles aren't suggesting the flight almost took out the Parliament buildings on its way into YOW.
I'm actually surprised the articles aren't suggesting the flight almost took out the Parliament buildings on its way into YOW.
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That's not really a Canadian thing to do. There is never mud slinging with respect to safety... People get missed approached and diversions particularly anyone who travelled up north.
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Air Canada Spin Machine?
The following report must also be from the so called "Air Canada Spin Machine".
Air Canada jet involved in two other mishaps - thestar.com
Air Canada jet involved in two other mishaps - thestar.com
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I am not an aviator, I work in airport fuel systems. Is there an absolute minimum fuel on board figure with which any aircraft should have when it lands?
Last edited by avturboy; 3rd Jun 2012 at 17:56.
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Yes, varies by country but typically 30 min of fuel in tanks is a minimum. Emergency to be declared if it is going to be less than that anytime before touchdown.
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Thanks ... A couple of years back I enthusiastically met a 747-400 as it arrived on a remote stand (at a UK airport) to provide fuel sevice, sole purpose of stop was for fuel, flight unable to continue to mailand EU having departed East Coast USA and apparently encountered higher than expected headwinds (well thats what I was told). I was soon set up and ready to fuel, just waiting for the figures and in so doing had noted the remaining fuel, total 4,500 kgs. When steps finally arrived the Captain came out to pass the figure to me, he seemed more than a little aggrevated that I had seen the guage readings and noted them down ...
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Air Canada spin machine?
So an APU fire, bird ingestion and uncontained engine failure are "mishaps" while a normal weather diversion becomes an "emergency landing"?
Thanks for proving my point Skywards.
Thanks for proving my point Skywards.
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EK did declare an emergency even though they later cancelled it. So it is not a stretch to call it an emergency landing.
I know it is very difficult to understand the true meaning of free press for someone living in a dictatorship with state controlled press. I also concede that press always has its own agenda but no way the left leaning Canadian press be a propaganda tool for a business such as Air Canada.
I know it is very difficult to understand the true meaning of free press for someone living in a dictatorship with state controlled press. I also concede that press always has its own agenda but no way the left leaning Canadian press be a propaganda tool for a business such as Air Canada.
10 Reasons not to fly Emirates
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Great Decision Making & Communication
Congratulations to the EK Crew. Didn't end up like AF, a statistic and
, informed ATC of their predicament, reassessed their progress relayed this to ATC.
It's unfortunate that too many are arm chair pilot lawyers and cannot see the big picture.
, informed ATC of their predicament, reassessed their progress relayed this to ATC.
It's unfortunate that too many are arm chair pilot lawyers and cannot see the big picture.
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Groper
before you go down the condescending path, think twice.
This is not a critic of the crew. It's a discussion about procedures.
If every aircraft that had to hold, then go-around, then decide to head for the alternate declares emergency because they might arrive below FR, if they would encounter some more holding at this alternate, we will be in a lot of emergencies in the future.
It is the very nature that a late diversion brings you close to minimum. If you hit some more delay there, you can then start by declaring pan or fuel advisory and only when you really go into FR you then declare emergency.
Any use of emergency to improve your number in line, ahead of the real emergency situation, is basically abusing the system and not necessarily good thinking ahead.
I say it again, if more and more pilots think and act that way, ATC will be in a lot of work and we degrade the nature and importance of a real emergency.
Even a huge A380 should not think being allowed to pave its way with some (too) early emergency just because it is bigger, uses more fuel and carries more passengers. Again, imagine a Saab 340 pulling that stunt ...... the poor regional skipper would be in for more that tea and biscuits.
Discussion open
before you go down the condescending path, think twice.
This is not a critic of the crew. It's a discussion about procedures.
If every aircraft that had to hold, then go-around, then decide to head for the alternate declares emergency because they might arrive below FR, if they would encounter some more holding at this alternate, we will be in a lot of emergencies in the future.
It is the very nature that a late diversion brings you close to minimum. If you hit some more delay there, you can then start by declaring pan or fuel advisory and only when you really go into FR you then declare emergency.
Any use of emergency to improve your number in line, ahead of the real emergency situation, is basically abusing the system and not necessarily good thinking ahead.
I say it again, if more and more pilots think and act that way, ATC will be in a lot of work and we degrade the nature and importance of a real emergency.
Even a huge A380 should not think being allowed to pave its way with some (too) early emergency just because it is bigger, uses more fuel and carries more passengers. Again, imagine a Saab 340 pulling that stunt ...... the poor regional skipper would be in for more that tea and biscuits.
Discussion open
Glofish,
What was the predicted arrival fuel at Ottawa when the emergency call was made? Does not have to be to the nearest kilo, just if it was above or below the final reserve would suffice.
Or are you making assumptions again without knowing all the facts....again?
The Don
What was the predicted arrival fuel at Ottawa when the emergency call was made? Does not have to be to the nearest kilo, just if it was above or below the final reserve would suffice.
Or are you making assumptions again without knowing all the facts....again?
The Don
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seriously, leave the crew alone, leave the analysing to the desk pilots in HQ
nobody knows the facts except the operating crew, EK sends us usually out with min fuel, the planes burn often more than the CFP says cos EK cheats, EK needs a few diversions then they will stop sending us letters or calling us in the office for taking extra fuel.
nobody knows the facts except the operating crew, EK sends us usually out with min fuel, the planes burn often more than the CFP says cos EK cheats, EK needs a few diversions then they will stop sending us letters or calling us in the office for taking extra fuel.
Last edited by GoreTex; 9th Jun 2012 at 09:25.
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GoreTex
seriously, leave the crew alone, leave the analysing to the desk pilots in HQ
nobody knows the facts except the operating crew, EK sends us usually out with min fuel, the planes burn often more than the CFP says cos EK cheats, EK needs a few diversions then they will stop sending us letters or calling us in the office for taking extra fuel.
seriously, leave the crew alone, leave the analysing to the desk pilots in HQ
nobody knows the facts except the operating crew, EK sends us usually out with min fuel, the planes burn often more than the CFP says cos EK cheats, EK needs a few diversions then they will stop sending us letters or calling us in the office for taking extra fuel.
This was what I was trying to say earlier....
1. Its a bad policy to send warnings to the TOP 10% captains who add a few tons above min required. If one month, 90% of the captains took min req fuel, and the other 10% added just .1 ton more, those 10% would get threatening emails....
2. EK cheats on min req fuel (ie. OFP using 12R for departure for aussie trips when 30R is in use etc etc etc..) Hence my problem with the "commit to destination card" that is all too often used. Committing to destination should be an option used rarely, not a crutch because the LEGAL dispatch fuel didn't work out so you are forced to eliminate your plan B and plan C. I would like to know how many flights a day commit at EK?
I think we should all file an ASR when we commit. Why not? We already file ASR's when we can't get Mumbai on HF. If we commit to our destination, it is a safety issue....
...something didn't work out as planned, either OFP fuel was off, weather diversions, restricted step climbs, plane full of fat passengers over 85kg (standard weight) Eliminating your plan B and plan C just to arrive at your destination with 30 minutes of fuel is definitely more of a safety issue than contacting Mumbai on HF
You want something changed, Tim Clark reads ASR's and not PPRUNE.