Emirates going with DEC
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Babysitting
I have a feeling that this thread, which for a change has been till now a rather mature discussion, is drifting into the usual bickering.
Whatever one's experience, we still learn from one another whatever the hours and level of experience. I have flown in every continent however at times I 'relinquish' my command as the F/O sitting next to me might know the area or destination better as he or she might have operated more than me. Does that mean that the F/O is babysitting or that I am not a good Captain? It's all about CRM and using all your resources to the fullest.
At the end of the day the safe outcome of the flight is the most important thing.
Whatever one's experience, we still learn from one another whatever the hours and level of experience. I have flown in every continent however at times I 'relinquish' my command as the F/O sitting next to me might know the area or destination better as he or she might have operated more than me. Does that mean that the F/O is babysitting or that I am not a good Captain? It's all about CRM and using all your resources to the fullest.
At the end of the day the safe outcome of the flight is the most important thing.
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bagalito- yes, so what? You have lots of experience. Does that make you better than the FO with 9000 hours, who came to EK with left seat time?
Experience is a fluid aspect of being a pilot. How much value does each additional 1000 hours bring? How much 'extra' is that worth?
Provided that the FO's have good previous experience (ie. command time) then they should be easily upgradable. This becomes even more true as the upgrade time increases (as it will at EK) to 5,6,7 years and beyond. Take into account their experience on the EK network and there is no need for DEC's.
The need for DEC only arises when there are no suitable FO's OR--and it is a BIG OR--- EK decides that they can save money by hiring DEC's.
But I am sorry - these rants about 'having 19,000 hours' or 'I am a TRE' are absolutely irrelevant!!!!!!!! I am happy that you feel very self important but your argument is rubbish. Given anywhere from 500-2000 hours in command (depends on the individual) the 'quality' of the captain/pilot averages out quickly. We have all flown with lower time guys who fly well and know their stuff and high time guys who are are barely qualified-- and vice versa.
I would also contend, and EK proves this, that some TRE's are excellent and some are truly horrific.
So I am glad that you have 20,000 hours. I am happy that you are a TRI/TRE with lots of WB command. Good for you. But it doesn't make you more qualified than most others. In fact, I have found over the last 20 years or so, that the guys who spout off about their qualifications the most are usually the ones who barely make the grade.
Signed,
a captain with enough experience to know better
Experience is a fluid aspect of being a pilot. How much value does each additional 1000 hours bring? How much 'extra' is that worth?
Provided that the FO's have good previous experience (ie. command time) then they should be easily upgradable. This becomes even more true as the upgrade time increases (as it will at EK) to 5,6,7 years and beyond. Take into account their experience on the EK network and there is no need for DEC's.
The need for DEC only arises when there are no suitable FO's OR--and it is a BIG OR--- EK decides that they can save money by hiring DEC's.
But I am sorry - these rants about 'having 19,000 hours' or 'I am a TRE' are absolutely irrelevant!!!!!!!! I am happy that you feel very self important but your argument is rubbish. Given anywhere from 500-2000 hours in command (depends on the individual) the 'quality' of the captain/pilot averages out quickly. We have all flown with lower time guys who fly well and know their stuff and high time guys who are are barely qualified-- and vice versa.
I would also contend, and EK proves this, that some TRE's are excellent and some are truly horrific.
So I am glad that you have 20,000 hours. I am happy that you are a TRI/TRE with lots of WB command. Good for you. But it doesn't make you more qualified than most others. In fact, I have found over the last 20 years or so, that the guys who spout off about their qualifications the most are usually the ones who barely make the grade.
Signed,
a captain with enough experience to know better
Last edited by Trader; 19th Feb 2012 at 20:07.
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Ahh Dear Capt....Bagalito...
Your first post was written with all the arrogance of a true Al Baker disciple...I dont think any of our FO's are worrying about you sitting in the LHS at EK anytime soon.
...after all every one of them has displayed better big pic decision making skills over you... by not choosing to live in the QR penitentiary...
Back to the Doha dream with you skipper...
;>
f.
Your first post was written with all the arrogance of a true Al Baker disciple...I dont think any of our FO's are worrying about you sitting in the LHS at EK anytime soon.
...after all every one of them has displayed better big pic decision making skills over you... by not choosing to live in the QR penitentiary...
Back to the Doha dream with you skipper...
;>
f.
Very good post trader.
The Don
The Don
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EK is taking DEC's for over 25 years now, everybody knows that and the guys who don't know should have made their homework.
AA, UA, LH all the majors would take DEC's too if they didn't have Unions.
The owner of EK can do whatever he wants to his Airline, even change the laws if necessary, just accept it.
don't shoot the messenger
AA, UA, LH all the majors would take DEC's too if they didn't have Unions.
The owner of EK can do whatever he wants to his Airline, even change the laws if necessary, just accept it.
don't shoot the messenger
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Bagalito you want to be our mate but jump ahead of the senority list? Do you really think FOs will be your "mate" when you take their command?
If you are as good as you think you are why aren't you flying for BA or AF?
I am a captain and I care a lot about DECs. I don't want the airline wrecked believe it or not. 1 in 5 previous DECs failed. That is a huge number and contrary to what has been published here no other major airline has that kind of percentage.
If EK does go ahead with DECs which they probably will it will be huge mistake. As has been said no good airline in the world employes DECs and we know the kind that will come to EK.
If you are as good as you think you are why aren't you flying for BA or AF?
I am a captain and I care a lot about DECs. I don't want the airline wrecked believe it or not. 1 in 5 previous DECs failed. That is a huge number and contrary to what has been published here no other major airline has that kind of percentage.
If EK does go ahead with DECs which they probably will it will be huge mistake. As has been said no good airline in the world employes DECs and we know the kind that will come to EK.
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LHR rain, with all due respect, I don't agree at all with your post.
As you put it, the right way to go about things is either retire from flying once you leave EK or else join another airline as a F/O as it is the right and morale thing to do. If however you join another airline as a DEC, that airline is not a good airline as it recruits DEC's. Does all this makes sense?
Sittingidly, if one has to base the decision on whether to join an airline by reading Pprune then he or she is a moron. People won't join EK because they hire DEC's is far fetched. Look around all the threads regarding pilot recruitment and you read all sorts of bull and rubbish one is amazed how planes are flying.
As you put it, the right way to go about things is either retire from flying once you leave EK or else join another airline as a F/O as it is the right and morale thing to do. If however you join another airline as a DEC, that airline is not a good airline as it recruits DEC's. Does all this makes sense?
Sittingidly, if one has to base the decision on whether to join an airline by reading Pprune then he or she is a moron. People won't join EK because they hire DEC's is far fetched. Look around all the threads regarding pilot recruitment and you read all sorts of bull and rubbish one is amazed how planes are flying.
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Attention: This is the Captain;
just read the news from the great one EDSVP or whatever the "Big Reds" title is (EK employees will know who i mean)
"DEC's on the way"
STOP END MESSAGE
just read the news from the great one EDSVP or whatever the "Big Reds" title is (EK employees will know who i mean)
"DEC's on the way"
STOP END MESSAGE
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11 Feb, 1st post
As it's been over a week, can anyone point me to the link containing the announcement?
I have just heard that the CoT Boeing for EK has confirmed that management have gone back on their promise NOT to hire any DEC's. Apparently DEC recruitment for the B777 will be formally annouced next week!
Dec and right to left on the 380 announced today. But a promise no FO will be held back. Haven't heard that since last time.
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Dear Bagalitto
CAN'T BELIEVE YOUR ARROGANCE!! This clearly demonstrates a serious lack of common sense and that you have lost the plot! BAD CRM!! You are a typical individual who goes on a power trip in the left seat. Terrible authority gradient on the flight deck. In my opinion you shouldn't be in the left seat to begin with! Do yourself a favor and don't even consider applying to any DEC job out there, since this is an accident waiting to happen. I have flown with individuals like yourself and wouldn't wish anyone having to go through such an experience. A serious threat to flight safety. Or better please think about this with some good common sense and change your attitude! Everybody who displays an attitude like yourself who thinks that he/she is invincible or is better then someone else and doesn't even recognize his own bad attitude shouldn't be flying! Extremely unprofessional and unacceptable. For your own sake take this message with you while it is still only on pprune and change your attitude for the sake of flight safety! GOOD LUCK!
CAN'T BELIEVE YOUR ARROGANCE!! This clearly demonstrates a serious lack of common sense and that you have lost the plot! BAD CRM!! You are a typical individual who goes on a power trip in the left seat. Terrible authority gradient on the flight deck. In my opinion you shouldn't be in the left seat to begin with! Do yourself a favor and don't even consider applying to any DEC job out there, since this is an accident waiting to happen. I have flown with individuals like yourself and wouldn't wish anyone having to go through such an experience. A serious threat to flight safety. Or better please think about this with some good common sense and change your attitude! Everybody who displays an attitude like yourself who thinks that he/she is invincible or is better then someone else and doesn't even recognize his own bad attitude shouldn't be flying! Extremely unprofessional and unacceptable. For your own sake take this message with you while it is still only on pprune and change your attitude for the sake of flight safety! GOOD LUCK!
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Hey,
relax... Maybe I'm optimistic, but hopefully they will give now a very good bonus and pay raise! Otherwise I think a lot of F/O's will be dissapointed, demotivated and you never, know leave the company.
Ok, maybe I'm dreaming but let's stay positive guys!!!!
relax... Maybe I'm optimistic, but hopefully they will give now a very good bonus and pay raise! Otherwise I think a lot of F/O's will be dissapointed, demotivated and you never, know leave the company.
Ok, maybe I'm dreaming but let's stay positive guys!!!!
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I'm surprised nobody commented yet on the new DEC requirements.
7000 hours total time ,no previous WB experience required! Most of the FOs joined with this kind of total time and previous command. I know I did...
Outrageous!!
7000 hours total time ,no previous WB experience required! Most of the FOs joined with this kind of total time and previous command. I know I did...
Outrageous!!
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Seaman's logic looks reasonable to me...I like it.
Guys, as you can see once again, the goal posts are on wheels. Don't get too wrapped up if this is perceived as adversely affecting you. It'll change once again....380 right to left looks interesting and good for those on that path, however, 2500 hours will take more like 3 years in the right seat. Nice lifestyle for sure though...
The good news is that there are enough spots for just about anyone who wants the left seat in the next few years. It does remind me of a certain "bubble" that happened a few years ago in DXB. Not quite sure how this exponential growth will pan out.
Where are the DEC's going? 777 only?
Guys, as you can see once again, the goal posts are on wheels. Don't get too wrapped up if this is perceived as adversely affecting you. It'll change once again....380 right to left looks interesting and good for those on that path, however, 2500 hours will take more like 3 years in the right seat. Nice lifestyle for sure though...
The good news is that there are enough spots for just about anyone who wants the left seat in the next few years. It does remind me of a certain "bubble" that happened a few years ago in DXB. Not quite sure how this exponential growth will pan out.
Where are the DEC's going? 777 only?
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Said it before and will say it again, "it's their trainset boys" get over it.
Looking at these new DEC requirements I can predict that Wizz Air, Easyjet, and Ryanair will be short of skippers this summer, and I suspect these are the very guys our chaps are targeting, along with a few select Qatar and Teahid drivers.
Looking at these new DEC requirements I can predict that Wizz Air, Easyjet, and Ryanair will be short of skippers this summer, and I suspect these are the very guys our chaps are targeting, along with a few select Qatar and Teahid drivers.
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Magic carpet and monsoon pilot, read Traders last post.
No matter how hard you try to make your hours look better than a DEC's, the fact is the company has always had a history of hiring DEC's and you knew it.
The hour requirement is used as a benchmark to start the command/upgrade/recruitment process for DEC's and FO's alike. It is their train set and they will set their benchmark themselves, or do you think it should be put out to a democratic vote?
While I'm here....this BS about an 80% pass rate for DEC's is another misconstrued statistic. The figure would be the same for new FO's, but the company has the ability to provide a greater level of training and to accept a lower overall competency level. DEC's can't be afforded that luxury so an 80% pass rate is not bad on an industry scale. Anyone care to name the pass rate for FO's currently upgrading?
One of the reasons DEC's are required is a percentage of the current FO's won't meet the command criteria in time (being ex RJ's) and despite Monsoon's opinion, his stated qualifications do not make him an instant four bar success.
Get over it guys, FO's that qualify and meet the standard will get a command.
No matter how hard you try to make your hours look better than a DEC's, the fact is the company has always had a history of hiring DEC's and you knew it.
The hour requirement is used as a benchmark to start the command/upgrade/recruitment process for DEC's and FO's alike. It is their train set and they will set their benchmark themselves, or do you think it should be put out to a democratic vote?
While I'm here....this BS about an 80% pass rate for DEC's is another misconstrued statistic. The figure would be the same for new FO's, but the company has the ability to provide a greater level of training and to accept a lower overall competency level. DEC's can't be afforded that luxury so an 80% pass rate is not bad on an industry scale. Anyone care to name the pass rate for FO's currently upgrading?
One of the reasons DEC's are required is a percentage of the current FO's won't meet the command criteria in time (being ex RJ's) and despite Monsoon's opinion, his stated qualifications do not make him an instant four bar success.
Get over it guys, FO's that qualify and meet the standard will get a command.