The dark side of Dubai
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Capetonian,
Allow me to tell you what I know:
You currently paint yourself as a disillusioned moderate. Although you didn't vote for the ANC in '94, you were willing to give them every chance to succeed in government.
Prior to '94, you might've voted Nat, but it's doubtful because of your inherent dislike of the apartheid system. However, you didn't dislike it enough to relinquish your priviledged lifestyle, schooling, job, etc.
And you certainly weren't about to relocate to a shack in Guguletu with no running water or electricity, as a show of solidarity with the masses. You just tut-tutted about the plight of the vast majority of the population, but hey, the infrastructure is the best in Africa, so what are they complaining about? In short, you did nothing.
You are either unwilling to admit or incapable of understanding that the current situation in the country is largely of your own making.
Now, if I'm right about my assessment of you - and I'm pretty sure I am - what gives you the right to occupy the moral high ground on any human rights issue?
P.S. Apologies - you did do something. You attempted to move everybody with a 'low reflective index' to the seven 'homelands'. Well done on that - well thought out. I can't understand why it didn't catch on with those ungrateful people.
Allow me to tell you what I know:
You currently paint yourself as a disillusioned moderate. Although you didn't vote for the ANC in '94, you were willing to give them every chance to succeed in government.
Prior to '94, you might've voted Nat, but it's doubtful because of your inherent dislike of the apartheid system. However, you didn't dislike it enough to relinquish your priviledged lifestyle, schooling, job, etc.
And you certainly weren't about to relocate to a shack in Guguletu with no running water or electricity, as a show of solidarity with the masses. You just tut-tutted about the plight of the vast majority of the population, but hey, the infrastructure is the best in Africa, so what are they complaining about? In short, you did nothing.
You are either unwilling to admit or incapable of understanding that the current situation in the country is largely of your own making.
Now, if I'm right about my assessment of you - and I'm pretty sure I am - what gives you the right to occupy the moral high ground on any human rights issue?
P.S. Apologies - you did do something. You attempted to move everybody with a 'low reflective index' to the seven 'homelands'. Well done on that - well thought out. I can't understand why it didn't catch on with those ungrateful people.
Last edited by journeyman; 14th Dec 2011 at 21:38.
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You have made incorrect assumptions and placed your own twist on what I said.
Wrong, it's what you think, pure supposition. You know nothing about me.
No, that's your inference. I have never voted anywhere as I have a conscientious objection to voting for anything political.
I was not 'willing' to give them a chance to succeed. There was no choice. I expected the worst. I got it wrong. They they got off to a slower start than I expected but are now making up for lost time.
I also might have been a Martian. However, having an inherent dislike of apartheid (where did I say that?) would not preclude one from voting Nat as they got a lot of things right. Also, there weren't many choices realistically.
You don't know that I didn't go and live in a shack, but as it happens you are correct, you got something right. As a show of solidarity it would have achieved absolutely nothing other than, as you call it, a show. Pointless.
You don't know where I lived then, in the past, or now.
And that would be why?
As you are not right, the second part of your statement is redundant. Nevertheless, I'll answer it. Anyone has the right to speak out about any human rights issue. You may think I have no right to criticise you for beating your wife if I beat mine, but that does not deny me the right to criticise your action, it just makes me a hypocrite.
Don't apologise, it's patronising in the extreme.
This is the part I really don't get.
You attempted to move everybody with a 'low reflective index' to the seven 'homelands'.
Officially recognised as four independent ones, there were originally 10, but the number is irrelevant as well as debatable. I referred to to the homelands policy as 'idiotic' but you still accuse me as if I had a personal responsibilty for it, or approved of it. From whence did you deduce that?
Whilst trying to avoid making this personal, I have to say that you come across as being somewhat bitter and twisted for some reason. Perhaps you could elaborate as you may have had some personal involvement with South Africa.
Allow me to tell you what I know:
You currently paint yourself as a disillusioned moderate. Although you didn't vote for the ANC in '94, you were willing to give them every chance to succeed in government.
I was not 'willing' to give them a chance to succeed. There was no choice. I expected the worst. I got it wrong. They they got off to a slower start than I expected but are now making up for lost time.
Prior to '94, you might've voted Nat, but it's doubtful because of your inherent dislike of the apartheid system. However, you didn't dislike it enough to relinquish your priviledged lifestyle, schooling, job, etc.
And you certainly weren't about to relocate to a shack in Guguletu with no running water or electricity, as a show of solidarity with the masses. You just tut-tutted about the plight of the vast majority of the population, but hey, the infrastructure is the best in Africa, so what are they complaining about? In short, you did nothing.
You don't know where I lived then, in the past, or now.
You are either unwilling to admit or incapable of understanding that the current situation in the country is largely of your own making.
Now, if I'm right about my assessment of you - and I'm pretty sure I am - what gives you the right to occupy the moral high ground on any human rights issue?
P.S. Apologies - you did do something. You attempted to move everybody with a 'low reflective index' to the seven 'homelands'. Well done on that - well thought out. I can't understand why it didn't catch on with those ungrateful people.
This is the part I really don't get.
You attempted to move everybody with a 'low reflective index' to the seven 'homelands'.
Officially recognised as four independent ones, there were originally 10, but the number is irrelevant as well as debatable. I referred to to the homelands policy as 'idiotic' but you still accuse me as if I had a personal responsibilty for it, or approved of it. From whence did you deduce that?
Whilst trying to avoid making this personal, I have to say that you come across as being somewhat bitter and twisted for some reason. Perhaps you could elaborate as you may have had some personal involvement with South Africa.
You don't know that I didn't go and live in a shack, but as it happens you are correct, you got something right. As a show of solidarity it would have achieved absolutely nothing other than, as you call it, a show. Pointless.
But as that only costs you a little money, it is a pointless gesture you choose to make, and then boast about on the internet to show us all how moral you are....
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I have never voted anywhere as I have a conscientious objection to voting for anything political.
You criticize Dubai, which probably would be quite different if people there had the right to vote. Yet you are against the concept of voting.
I, for one, have no desire to hear your opinion if you think it is beneath your dignity to vote. How do you expect anything to be more to your liking if you won't vote? Very sad, coming from a nation which has much of which to be proud - especially its non-violent revolution which was effected at the ballot box.
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Wizofoz: At my age, I'm above 'boasting'. I don't need to!
Waste Management:
As far as you are concerned ...... I refuse to vote unless I can vote for a candidate or party which I feel will benefit the country, people, or myself. In the absence of that, I won't vote. Nor will I vote in what is effectively a one party state.
It's not 'beneath my dignity' to vote, that's the way you choose to see my refusal to do so. Furthermore, you don't even know whether or not I have the right to vote there.
Indeed, SA has much of which to be proud since 1994, but sadly it's slipping away as the ANC's power becomes entrenched and politically it moves the way of its neighbour to the north. The benefits of non-violent revolution are gradually being eroded as corruption and nepotism creep into every aspect of life, and crime, racism, and xenophobia increase.
P.S : comment removed by Capetonian
Waste Management:
In that case, as far as I am concerned, you have given up your right to have an opinion on anything political.
It's not 'beneath my dignity' to vote, that's the way you choose to see my refusal to do so. Furthermore, you don't even know whether or not I have the right to vote there.
Indeed, SA has much of which to be proud since 1994, but sadly it's slipping away as the ANC's power becomes entrenched and politically it moves the way of its neighbour to the north. The benefits of non-violent revolution are gradually being eroded as corruption and nepotism creep into every aspect of life, and crime, racism, and xenophobia increase.
P.S : comment removed by Capetonian
Last edited by Capetonian; 15th Dec 2011 at 15:03.
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Capetonian,
So you have a conscientious objection to voting for anything political. Easy to say when the system you grew up in clearly favoured the paler demographic. No attacks of conscience with that, I'll bet.
I wonder if you would've been less inclined to sit on the political fence, had the cosmos decreed that you pop out of the womb in the middle of Tembisa, say.
But the real kicker for me was when you actually mentioned that apartheid was not all bad. Come on, man - I gave you an out by suggesting that you had an inherent dislike for the system, but you didn't take it! Trust me, it's not a good look for you.
Less freedom of information now than under the Nats? Surely you jest. Mandela was incarcerated 7km off Blouberg Beach for over two decades and nobody knew what he looked like, or what he stood for. Or what the ANC's doctrine was. Dissidents slipped in the shower and fell out of the windows of John Vorster Square at an alarming rate. Newspapers were summarily shut down. Etcetera, etcetera.
And you have the gall to outraged by Dubai's hypocracy?
So you have a conscientious objection to voting for anything political. Easy to say when the system you grew up in clearly favoured the paler demographic. No attacks of conscience with that, I'll bet.
I wonder if you would've been less inclined to sit on the political fence, had the cosmos decreed that you pop out of the womb in the middle of Tembisa, say.
But the real kicker for me was when you actually mentioned that apartheid was not all bad. Come on, man - I gave you an out by suggesting that you had an inherent dislike for the system, but you didn't take it! Trust me, it's not a good look for you.
Less freedom of information now than under the Nats? Surely you jest. Mandela was incarcerated 7km off Blouberg Beach for over two decades and nobody knew what he looked like, or what he stood for. Or what the ANC's doctrine was. Dissidents slipped in the shower and fell out of the windows of John Vorster Square at an alarming rate. Newspapers were summarily shut down. Etcetera, etcetera.
And you have the gall to outraged by Dubai's hypocracy?
Last edited by journeyman; 15th Dec 2011 at 11:15.
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journeyman Thank you for the response. You obviously know what you are talking about (I am not being sarcastic) but have views diametrically opposed to mine. That's fine - it makes life interesting.
I don't have time right now to reply properly to you, but will do so later. Meantime, here is something I wrote a few weeks ago on another thread, since you mentioned Nelson Mandela and Robben Eiland
I first went to Robben Eiland in 1975, when it was still a prison. The warders used to organise dances and we went across on a very puke inducing ferry, if I remember correctly from Quay Four, where there is now a lovely restaurant. It wasn't a pleasant occasion, but it gave me a different perspective on the place that I overlooked from my kitchen window, without giving it a thought in those days, as we learned that 'it's jus' a blerry prison where they locked up a few kaffirs'. There was of course no internet, the media in SA were very controlled, and most of us believed what we were fed, mainly because it suited us, living in that paradise, to do so.
As times moved on and resistance to the Nationalist regime in SA gathered momentum, and I was one of the privileged people who had access to the international press (thanks to my ex- who worked at the airport and used to get me the UK newspapers off the weekly direct LON-CPT flight on Sunday morning.) Sunday mornings used to consist of a bit of HR (that's not hand relief by the way) and then reading the papers while she was burning the toast and trying to cook breakfast.
I started to get a different view of things but, perhaps to my shame, never really questioned any of it. As I said in another posting, Nelson Mandela has been held up as a saint, a criminal, and a terrorist, and perhaps he was all three at different times in his life.
Roll on the years, change of government, not for the better for most people but that's another story, and perhaps 6 years ago I went to Robben Eiland, now no longer a prison, on the tourist ferry from the Nelson Mandela Gateway at the Clock Tower in the Harbour, with my family. Before boarding the ferry you are locked into a darkened room to watch a video about the prisoners and what happened in those days. A deeply moving and humbling experience. Of course it's just another view of history from the opposite perspective to what we learned. I, having grown up in SA, was far more moved by it than the overseas visitors.
We were then taken round, as you were, by an ex-political prisoner, and the absence of bitterness and rancour as he addressed us was noticeable.
All South Africans, of all races and poltical persuasions, should have the opportunity to visit Robben Eiland and to learn what went on there. I am not convinced that the change of government in SA has benefited the majority as it was meant to, nor am I an apologist for apartheid - it went on around me and I admit that I benefited from it, but I did not know enough about what it implied to either support or oppose it, and that of course was exactly what the government wanted. It was like the weather, it just happened and was beyond our control, a fact that we accepted.
Indeed, many of us white folk should hang our heads in shame, but so should many of the black leaders of South Africa, in fact of many countries in Africa, now.
This is from the Robben Eiland website :
Quote:
The entire six square kilometer island is now a UN World Heritage Site. A forlorn yet tranquil atmosphere permeates the place. One can almost hear audible sighs of relief from the island, once a haven for seals and ocean birds before sailing ships rounded the Cape. Sailors relentlessly plundered it for fresh seal meat and penguin eggs. Eventually it became a dumping ground for exiles and criminals. In the 17th century the Dutch were the first to banish their political troublemakers and Muslim leaders from the East Indies. Today there’s a beautiful shrine, called a kramat, built in honor of Tuan Guru. After his release this Muslim holy man went on to found Islam among Cape Town’s slaves.
Xhosa chiefs who rebelled against British rule were shipped to the island from the Eastern Cape. From the mid 1800’s criminals, prostitutes, outcasts, lepers and the mentally ill joined them. All were subjected too much cruelty and abuse.
And I end with a quote from Nelson Mandela :
Quote:
“Today when I look at Robben Island, I see it as a celebration of the struggle and a symbol of the finest qualities of the human spirit, rather than as a monument to the brutal tyranny and oppression of apartheid. It is true that Robben Island was once a place of darkness, but out of that darkness has come a wonderful brightness, a light so powerful that it could not be hidden behind prison walls…
It's a great shame that the current leaders of SA do not live up to the promises and the expectation of Nelson Mandela.
I don't have time right now to reply properly to you, but will do so later. Meantime, here is something I wrote a few weeks ago on another thread, since you mentioned Nelson Mandela and Robben Eiland
I first went to Robben Eiland in 1975, when it was still a prison. The warders used to organise dances and we went across on a very puke inducing ferry, if I remember correctly from Quay Four, where there is now a lovely restaurant. It wasn't a pleasant occasion, but it gave me a different perspective on the place that I overlooked from my kitchen window, without giving it a thought in those days, as we learned that 'it's jus' a blerry prison where they locked up a few kaffirs'. There was of course no internet, the media in SA were very controlled, and most of us believed what we were fed, mainly because it suited us, living in that paradise, to do so.
As times moved on and resistance to the Nationalist regime in SA gathered momentum, and I was one of the privileged people who had access to the international press (thanks to my ex- who worked at the airport and used to get me the UK newspapers off the weekly direct LON-CPT flight on Sunday morning.) Sunday mornings used to consist of a bit of HR (that's not hand relief by the way) and then reading the papers while she was burning the toast and trying to cook breakfast.
I started to get a different view of things but, perhaps to my shame, never really questioned any of it. As I said in another posting, Nelson Mandela has been held up as a saint, a criminal, and a terrorist, and perhaps he was all three at different times in his life.
Roll on the years, change of government, not for the better for most people but that's another story, and perhaps 6 years ago I went to Robben Eiland, now no longer a prison, on the tourist ferry from the Nelson Mandela Gateway at the Clock Tower in the Harbour, with my family. Before boarding the ferry you are locked into a darkened room to watch a video about the prisoners and what happened in those days. A deeply moving and humbling experience. Of course it's just another view of history from the opposite perspective to what we learned. I, having grown up in SA, was far more moved by it than the overseas visitors.
We were then taken round, as you were, by an ex-political prisoner, and the absence of bitterness and rancour as he addressed us was noticeable.
All South Africans, of all races and poltical persuasions, should have the opportunity to visit Robben Eiland and to learn what went on there. I am not convinced that the change of government in SA has benefited the majority as it was meant to, nor am I an apologist for apartheid - it went on around me and I admit that I benefited from it, but I did not know enough about what it implied to either support or oppose it, and that of course was exactly what the government wanted. It was like the weather, it just happened and was beyond our control, a fact that we accepted.
Indeed, many of us white folk should hang our heads in shame, but so should many of the black leaders of South Africa, in fact of many countries in Africa, now.
This is from the Robben Eiland website :
Quote:
The entire six square kilometer island is now a UN World Heritage Site. A forlorn yet tranquil atmosphere permeates the place. One can almost hear audible sighs of relief from the island, once a haven for seals and ocean birds before sailing ships rounded the Cape. Sailors relentlessly plundered it for fresh seal meat and penguin eggs. Eventually it became a dumping ground for exiles and criminals. In the 17th century the Dutch were the first to banish their political troublemakers and Muslim leaders from the East Indies. Today there’s a beautiful shrine, called a kramat, built in honor of Tuan Guru. After his release this Muslim holy man went on to found Islam among Cape Town’s slaves.
Xhosa chiefs who rebelled against British rule were shipped to the island from the Eastern Cape. From the mid 1800’s criminals, prostitutes, outcasts, lepers and the mentally ill joined them. All were subjected too much cruelty and abuse.
And I end with a quote from Nelson Mandela :
Quote:
“Today when I look at Robben Island, I see it as a celebration of the struggle and a symbol of the finest qualities of the human spirit, rather than as a monument to the brutal tyranny and oppression of apartheid. It is true that Robben Island was once a place of darkness, but out of that darkness has come a wonderful brightness, a light so powerful that it could not be hidden behind prison walls…
It's a great shame that the current leaders of SA do not live up to the promises and the expectation of Nelson Mandela.
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Originally Posted by Harry the Cod
Whight Knight / sittingidly
It appears recently that whatever ME forum I turn to, the end result appears the same. An immature, emotional and overheated slanging match between the two of you.
Whilst I'm all for people expressing different viewpoints, this level of bickering serves little purpose other than ruin these threads. Sort your differences out via PM's and please leave these forums for adult discussions, not personal penis competitions.
It appears recently that whatever ME forum I turn to, the end result appears the same. An immature, emotional and overheated slanging match between the two of you.
Whilst I'm all for people expressing different viewpoints, this level of bickering serves little purpose other than ruin these threads. Sort your differences out via PM's and please leave these forums for adult discussions, not personal penis competitions.
Wanna compare penises???
This is the thread that links in with *33 of the thread.
The dark side of Dubai - Johann Hari - Commentators - The Independent
The dark side of Dubai - Johann Hari - Commentators - The Independent
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Back to Journeyman :
Absolutely nothing to do with that at all. I had the right to vote in the UK and chose not to exercise that, I believe I may still have that right, but I am not interested. It's a decision I made before reaching the age of franchise and one which, in my view anyway, time has proved to be correct. Do you think, for example, that what is currently happening in the Eurozone, is a result of 'democracy' as it was intended? Do you think that people in Zimbabwe or South Africa are happy with the results of their 'democracy'? It's a charade, and a sick one.
The honest answer to that is that until 1994 I'd have had no choice. At that stage it was irrelevant.
I didn't need 'an out', I stand by my statement, whatever it 'looks like' for me. I don't care. I didn't have an inherent dislike for the system and I'm not going to pretend now that I did. As per my previous post, I grew up with it and accepted it, as did most of us. From a white perspective we knew relatively little about it and it wasn't bad. How exactly did you expect most people to realise what went on? I had a friend whose mother was active in the Black Sash, these are the things that happened in those days,
In September 1985, her house was tear-gassed and in November of the same year her car was burned right outside her house. Over the years Di received many threatening phone calls and some death threats. She continued with her work in the struggle even after an automobile accident left her injured and killed her husband. Was it an accident? Who knows, it happened when they were on their way to the Transkei to attend a political meeting. And we could smell the smoke and tear gas at their house from where we lived, in Oranjezicht.
The checks and balances are being eroded, fast, and it won't be long before the free press - which is effectively one newspaper these days, Mail & Guardian Online: The smart news source, is stifled, they're doing a sterling job of trying with the new bill that was passed on 'Black Tuesday', a few weeks ago, by the ANC.
It wasn't so much about not knowing, it was more about not knowing that there was anything else to know , if you see what I mean. I was, as mentioned, one of the few who had free access to the outside press, but I'm talking about the days when there was a magazine called 'Scope' which was considered by some to be 'pornography' and every now and then they'd overstep the mark and the black strips on the chick's boobs was too small and it would be 'banned' by the dreaded Publications Control Board, which was a bit of a joke.
I answered that in earlier post.
So you have a conscientious objection to voting for anything political. Easy to say when the system you grew up in clearly favoured the paler demographic. No attacks of conscience with that, I'll bet.
I wonder if you would've been less inclined to sit on the political fence, had the cosmos decreed that you pop out of the womb in the middle of Tembisa, say.
......... you actually mentioned that apartheid was not all bad. ...... I gave you an out by suggesting that you had an inherent dislike for the system, but you didn't take it! Trust me, it's not a good look for you.
In September 1985, her house was tear-gassed and in November of the same year her car was burned right outside her house. Over the years Di received many threatening phone calls and some death threats. She continued with her work in the struggle even after an automobile accident left her injured and killed her husband. Was it an accident? Who knows, it happened when they were on their way to the Transkei to attend a political meeting. And we could smell the smoke and tear gas at their house from where we lived, in Oranjezicht.
Less freedom of information now than under the Nats? Surely you jest. Mandela was incarcerated 7km off Blouberg Beach for over two decades and nobody knew what he looked like, or what he stood for. Or what the ANC's doctrine was. Dissidents slipped in the shower and fell out of the windows of John Vorster Square at an alarming rate. Newspapers were summarily shut down. Etcetera, etcetera.
The bill was opposed by a broad civil society coalition containing 400 organization, including unions, media organizations and business groups. Also speaking out against it were retired Archbishop Desmond Tutu, the Nelson Mandela Foundation, and writer Nadine Gordimer, who said on the day before the vote that the ANC “is taking South Africa back to the suppression of the free expression of apartheid.”
A floor speech by Lindiwe Mazibuko, parliamentary leader of the opposition Democratic Alliance, was quoted in media reports:
This bill will unstitch the very fabric of our constitution. It will criminalise the freedom so many of our people fought for.
What will you, the members on that side of the house, tell your grandchildren one day? I know you will tell them that you fought for freedom. But will you also tell them you helped to destroy it?
Because they will pay the price for your actions today. Let this weigh heavy on your conscience as you cast your vote.
More than 1,000 protesters gathered outside the parliament building in Cape Town, many wearing black to symbolize “Black Tuesday,” a reference to what is called “Black Wednesday” for Oct. 19, 1977, when the apartheid government banned two newspapers and 19 black consciousness movements. The ANC advised its members of parliament to wear colorful clothing.
A floor speech by Lindiwe Mazibuko, parliamentary leader of the opposition Democratic Alliance, was quoted in media reports:
This bill will unstitch the very fabric of our constitution. It will criminalise the freedom so many of our people fought for.
What will you, the members on that side of the house, tell your grandchildren one day? I know you will tell them that you fought for freedom. But will you also tell them you helped to destroy it?
Because they will pay the price for your actions today. Let this weigh heavy on your conscience as you cast your vote.
More than 1,000 protesters gathered outside the parliament building in Cape Town, many wearing black to symbolize “Black Tuesday,” a reference to what is called “Black Wednesday” for Oct. 19, 1977, when the apartheid government banned two newspapers and 19 black consciousness movements. The ANC advised its members of parliament to wear colorful clothing.
And you have the gall to outraged by Dubai's hypocracy?
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I actually meant it for the other posters (journeyman) who seem to delight in pontificating about SA.
It was meant in jest, to some degree, but the point is the crime rate WAS lower under apartheid.
It was meant in jest, to some degree, but the point is the crime rate WAS lower under apartheid.
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the point is the crime rate WAS lower under apartheid.
I'm not arguing against myself here, just pointing out that someone will come up with the statement that apartheid was a crime against humanity. It was, but the current system is worse, and getting worse.
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Journeyman-- I am guessing you come from a country ...somewhere.
I would also suggest, based on your moral 'high ground' comment, that we could reverse the logic to apply to you.
Being South African doesn't dismiss someones right to discuss issues of morality. By that logic no one would be discussing anything since we all come from some somewhere with 'tainted' hands.
I would also suggest, based on your moral 'high ground' comment, that we could reverse the logic to apply to you.
Being South African doesn't dismiss someones right to discuss issues of morality. By that logic no one would be discussing anything since we all come from some somewhere with 'tainted' hands.
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Thank you, Trader. You have expressed, better than I did, what I was trying to say here, a few posts ago :
Anyone has the right to speak out about any human rights issue. You may think I have no right to criticise you for beating your wife if I beat mine, but that does not deny me the right to criticise your action, it just makes me a hypocrite.
Well if we're going to hijack the thread then the gory past has been put on show for all to see:
Gallows museum opens as national memorial and museum in Pretoria, South Africa - AOL Travel UK
When I use to fly into Joburg back in the 70's I saw first hand how people were treated by the police. In my view apartheid was a bad thing and now there is a reminder of it by this disgusting exhibition which has opened.
Gallows museum opens as national memorial and museum in Pretoria, South Africa - AOL Travel UK
When I use to fly into Joburg back in the 70's I saw first hand how people were treated by the police. In my view apartheid was a bad thing and now there is a reminder of it by this disgusting exhibition which has opened.
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Well if we're going to hijack the thread
In my view apartheid was a bad thing and now there is a reminder of it by this disgusting exhibition which has opened.
OK point taken one could say the same about the chamber of horrors in Madam Tussaud's wax works. But it still doesn't detract from fact that it's an unnecessary ghoulish reminder of the past.
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Trader,
You're right - I do come from a country somewhere.
It's just that I wasn't the one dissing another country's system. I merely demonstrated that for every for finger you have pointing at someone else, there a four pointing back at you (unless you are a butcher, in which case it's only two or three).
All the best guys - sorry to have intruded. I won't be commenting anymore.
You're right - I do come from a country somewhere.
It's just that I wasn't the one dissing another country's system. I merely demonstrated that for every for finger you have pointing at someone else, there a four pointing back at you (unless you are a butcher, in which case it's only two or three).
All the best guys - sorry to have intruded. I won't be commenting anymore.
