Why are so many EK FO's failing the upgrade interviews?
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Why are so many EK FO's failing the upgrade interviews?
Rumour has it that >50% of FO's are failing EK upgrade interviews. Is this correct?
Also is this distributed evenly accross ethnic backgrounds? Another rumour is that non white (ex British Empire) FO's are failing at a higher rate than the average.
What's the truth?
If there really is a problem then it should be identified. Maybe the folks at the top of the tree are not being told the whole story.
Also is this distributed evenly accross ethnic backgrounds? Another rumour is that non white (ex British Empire) FO's are failing at a higher rate than the average.
What's the truth?
If there really is a problem then it should be identified. Maybe the folks at the top of the tree are not being told the whole story.
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ex-British Empire
9-points, I'm not really sure if you mean non-white & ex-British Empire, or non-white & not ex-British Empire. Either way, the British Empire covered approximately 1/3 of the globe, including and excluding lots of colours. So I don't see the need to include the British Empire in your argument.
Whispering "T" Jet
9 points In the past 12 months the only four F/Os I know in EK have all passed their Command interviews.
Following your "Rumour has it" logic, this must now constitute a 100% pass rate?
Following your "Rumour has it" logic, this must now constitute a 100% pass rate?
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Wazza, apologies, my term was incorrect. I meant to ask if non British/Canadian/Australian etc English as a first language, white applicants were being discriminated against.
3 holer, you are incorrect to imply that I made a statement of fact, I did not. I only posted a question and relayed a rumour (being careful to make it clear that it was a rumour). After all this is the PP-RUmour-NE. Why are you so quick to attack? What is your agenda?
Harry - Is what you say fact? More detail please, date ranges, numbers etc. If your info is correct I would love to believe it but could you be more detailed?
RUMOUR has it that the interviews are now much harder than a few years ago, this seems to be reflected in the change to the EK minimum pass gradings in the sim etc. Now raising the standard is a good thing but it must be fair to all ethic groups. EK should not discriminate against FO's whom only 5 or so years ago were welcomed as future Captains and whom in many cases were Captains in their previous airlines.
So what's the truth???
3 holer, you are incorrect to imply that I made a statement of fact, I did not. I only posted a question and relayed a rumour (being careful to make it clear that it was a rumour). After all this is the PP-RUmour-NE. Why are you so quick to attack? What is your agenda?
Harry - Is what you say fact? More detail please, date ranges, numbers etc. If your info is correct I would love to believe it but could you be more detailed?
RUMOUR has it that the interviews are now much harder than a few years ago, this seems to be reflected in the change to the EK minimum pass gradings in the sim etc. Now raising the standard is a good thing but it must be fair to all ethic groups. EK should not discriminate against FO's whom only 5 or so years ago were welcomed as future Captains and whom in many cases were Captains in their previous airlines.
So what's the truth???
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Statistics are filled with lies & damned lies. Some weeks it maybe as high as 80% and other weeks as low as 10%. I think you have to look at the overall figure before jumping to conclusions. Everyone is capable of passing there command. Some just talk themselves out of it at the interview......Good luck to all those in the pipeline.
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put simply, it is where the fo's have been trained in house in the uae. Any guys who have the nuts to speak up, know exactly what I am talking about. On the exit interview to be released to start basic type rating on the 320, there have been some, let's say unique understanding of how basic aerodynamics, or even the grasp of the english language. This is across the board of any ethnic groups, not just local. But as in the emirates some are more equal than others.
Oh I forgot, I have a pair now, as I have left the land of sand and sun.
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Oh I forgot, I have a pair now, as I have left the land of sand and sun.
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short flights long nights
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Alconguin Crusader
Sorry mate, he's not the problem. The problem lies in the quality and pysche of some of the F/O's coming through. Whilst I genuinely don't know why there's a discrepancy between fleets, SP is fair during interviews. Whatever people may think of him, a fool he is not. He researches all the candidates background and physc results and uses this information to direct his line of questioning. He's very effective at highlighting a weakness which is, after all, what people need to be made aware of. Most guys will get a month or so to prepare before a second interview. Better now than struggle through a course and actually fail 'officially'. Then you only get one more chance! You may be interested to know that the last four guys all passed.
Anyway, when I fly with some guys that have bits of paper for everything, speak poor English, have poor RT, can recite emergency briefs backwards but don't apply them effectively and can't fly the aircraft for toffee, is it any wonder the airline thinks a bit more right seat time is required. Heard about the bunch of Brazillians coming up for upgrade. The ones being 'coached' by a fellow compatriate. The same one who gives them the 'FORDEC' decision making model Funny, I could have sworn EK used Assess, Action, Manage!
We are begining to see the consequences of lower standards and of F/O's flying with paranoid Captains. We will also begin to see the effects of having low experienced training Captains. One recently applied after only 6 months of command time.....his first jet command. I recently flew with a brand new F/O. The new LTC told him never to take his bottle of water off the aircraft as he will get fired, that the A/P should be engaged at 200' and disconnected 'only when landing clearance is received' and don't try to do a CDA in case you get unstable! This F/O and many others are our future Captains. Is this how we are training them?
If so, this airline may be on an insidious slope towards long term damage, both in safety standards and in reputation.
Harry
Sorry mate, he's not the problem. The problem lies in the quality and pysche of some of the F/O's coming through. Whilst I genuinely don't know why there's a discrepancy between fleets, SP is fair during interviews. Whatever people may think of him, a fool he is not. He researches all the candidates background and physc results and uses this information to direct his line of questioning. He's very effective at highlighting a weakness which is, after all, what people need to be made aware of. Most guys will get a month or so to prepare before a second interview. Better now than struggle through a course and actually fail 'officially'. Then you only get one more chance! You may be interested to know that the last four guys all passed.
Anyway, when I fly with some guys that have bits of paper for everything, speak poor English, have poor RT, can recite emergency briefs backwards but don't apply them effectively and can't fly the aircraft for toffee, is it any wonder the airline thinks a bit more right seat time is required. Heard about the bunch of Brazillians coming up for upgrade. The ones being 'coached' by a fellow compatriate. The same one who gives them the 'FORDEC' decision making model Funny, I could have sworn EK used Assess, Action, Manage!
We are begining to see the consequences of lower standards and of F/O's flying with paranoid Captains. We will also begin to see the effects of having low experienced training Captains. One recently applied after only 6 months of command time.....his first jet command. I recently flew with a brand new F/O. The new LTC told him never to take his bottle of water off the aircraft as he will get fired, that the A/P should be engaged at 200' and disconnected 'only when landing clearance is received' and don't try to do a CDA in case you get unstable! This F/O and many others are our future Captains. Is this how we are training them?
If so, this airline may be on an insidious slope towards long term damage, both in safety standards and in reputation.
Harry
Last edited by harry the cod; 30th Apr 2011 at 00:10.
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Amen to that Harry. I do not agree with a lot of your stands, but here you are spot on.
I would like to add that besides the obvious low standard of experience or skill of some of the recruits, still a lot come in with adequate standards. But as you pointed out, the training mentality at EK then never stops to beat every common sense and handling skill out of them during the next few years. Not difficult to breed such failure rates for later when you try to upgrade them.
As of SP, well, you state the he is very good at highlighting weaknesses. Then he might apply this to himself and realize that his greatest weakness is his poor self esteem, paired with his blatant lack of aviation skill (not knowledge, mind you, there he excels) and a complete absence of peoples skill (CRM). He might then assess himself being the wrong man at the wrong position. He should try to clean up the documentation mess at EK. With his theoretical knowledge and being able to work alone in a hidden office, nicely on ground, that's where he belongs and where he would display his greatest value to the company.
I would like to add that besides the obvious low standard of experience or skill of some of the recruits, still a lot come in with adequate standards. But as you pointed out, the training mentality at EK then never stops to beat every common sense and handling skill out of them during the next few years. Not difficult to breed such failure rates for later when you try to upgrade them.
As of SP, well, you state the he is very good at highlighting weaknesses. Then he might apply this to himself and realize that his greatest weakness is his poor self esteem, paired with his blatant lack of aviation skill (not knowledge, mind you, there he excels) and a complete absence of peoples skill (CRM). He might then assess himself being the wrong man at the wrong position. He should try to clean up the documentation mess at EK. With his theoretical knowledge and being able to work alone in a hidden office, nicely on ground, that's where he belongs and where he would display his greatest value to the company.
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The fact is that EK ineherently creates the conditions for low level captains to be produced and this is true now as it was in the past...but becoming worst and worst with the expansion.
It is an oppressive and ass licking prone environment runned on terror.
Per my experience interview questions are always the same taken from a restricted database and I doubt the German guy has such a scientific approach.
Anyway so much trust into psychometrics and psychology, which are unexact sciences by definition, is and would be in this case even more ridicolous and is just the expression of the paranoia behind the scene at higher floor and generally widespread in that society. Memorizing a sufficient amount of informations, getting the easily retrievable info on LOE scenarios and other gauges ,having had a remissive attitude (low head, a lot of " Ohh I see"..) not having called sick too much and having basic flying skills will land you a left seat on a wide body. Luckily with todays technology and reliabiltiy my grand mother could fly.
If you have a little of personality and you tend to be ethical just forget EK.
It is an oppressive and ass licking prone environment runned on terror.
Per my experience interview questions are always the same taken from a restricted database and I doubt the German guy has such a scientific approach.
Anyway so much trust into psychometrics and psychology, which are unexact sciences by definition, is and would be in this case even more ridicolous and is just the expression of the paranoia behind the scene at higher floor and generally widespread in that society. Memorizing a sufficient amount of informations, getting the easily retrievable info on LOE scenarios and other gauges ,having had a remissive attitude (low head, a lot of " Ohh I see"..) not having called sick too much and having basic flying skills will land you a left seat on a wide body. Luckily with todays technology and reliabiltiy my grand mother could fly.
If you have a little of personality and you tend to be ethical just forget EK.
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My previous mob (UK) had a fairly sensible approach to the upgrade process i.e they put you forward when you were ready. Hence there was an approx overall 85% first time pass rate, and in the mix the company was and still is very fortunate to have a majority of Commanders who are IMHO above average...based on my exp with EK guys so far.
They also did things a little differently to EK in the sense that the training department was there to TRAIN you rather than catch you out i.e. information and ideas were freely shared in public, and the whole process wasn't a big dark secret based on the KIP principle as it appears to be here. KIP = Knowledge is power
From an F/O's perspective who hopefully has a decent command of the queens English, here are a few comments or observations I've observed from friends/taxi passengers/acquaintances who have been, about too, or are going through the process.
1. Apart from a general process, there appears to be no syllabus for candidates to follow, the guidance that does exist takes the form of gouge (it wouldn't be EK without it would it?) that merely shows candidates how to tick boxes, without ever really helping them understand in an in-depth fashion..what it is they know, they don't know.
2. The Psyche Dept, how did some of the barely sane individuals who inhabit the training dept get through, and I as a normal line pilot with no homicidal or authority issues get the 3rd degree?
3. The line training, why do I get such a vast difference in opinions? and why are they so stingy when it comes to top tips? Everytime I ask a relevant question, it gets used against me as an indicator of the lack of my knowledge/preparation.
4. Being expected to know the OMA inside out, rather than for instance have a thorough working knowledge of the relevant sections/criteria.
No opinion myself of the process or lack of, because quite simply, I haven't been through it, nor will I for some time to come, but interesting on the basis that I've heard these same observations over and over again
They also did things a little differently to EK in the sense that the training department was there to TRAIN you rather than catch you out i.e. information and ideas were freely shared in public, and the whole process wasn't a big dark secret based on the KIP principle as it appears to be here. KIP = Knowledge is power
From an F/O's perspective who hopefully has a decent command of the queens English, here are a few comments or observations I've observed from friends/taxi passengers/acquaintances who have been, about too, or are going through the process.
1. Apart from a general process, there appears to be no syllabus for candidates to follow, the guidance that does exist takes the form of gouge (it wouldn't be EK without it would it?) that merely shows candidates how to tick boxes, without ever really helping them understand in an in-depth fashion..what it is they know, they don't know.
2. The Psyche Dept, how did some of the barely sane individuals who inhabit the training dept get through, and I as a normal line pilot with no homicidal or authority issues get the 3rd degree?
3. The line training, why do I get such a vast difference in opinions? and why are they so stingy when it comes to top tips? Everytime I ask a relevant question, it gets used against me as an indicator of the lack of my knowledge/preparation.
4. Being expected to know the OMA inside out, rather than for instance have a thorough working knowledge of the relevant sections/criteria.
No opinion myself of the process or lack of, because quite simply, I haven't been through it, nor will I for some time to come, but interesting on the basis that I've heard these same observations over and over again
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Interesting points Falcon.
What I think is common throughout the airline industry is the inaccuracy of peoples perception of their own ability.
Let me explain.... How many times have you been warned by a colleague about a particular trainer being a tw@t/@sshole/mean or scary only to find yourself with him on your next sim detail and discover that in actual fact he was perfectly ok and had deep knowledge and was a gent? The point being that unlike your friend, you actually bothered to put the work in!!!
The upgrade course here isn't hard (nor was the interview process when I did it a few years ago), but it DOES require a lot of preparation and study.
If anyone turns up 'half cocked' expecting to be spoon fed, then quite simply you WILL fail and quite rightly so. If you guys want a 12,000 dhs a month pay rise then put the god damned work into it like those before you have, don't expect to be given it on a silver platter!!!
Quite simply, if you put the effort in, have a professional attitude and turn up prepared, you WILL pass the course.........EASY. But frankly if after having sat in the RHS for over 4 years you are still unable to find or understand relevant info in the OM-A then you are a lazy git and deserve to spend all of eternity scratching your @rse in the F/O's seat....... STOP MAKING EXCUSES and start being professional.
There's an old British SAS saying "Train hard, Fight Easy". The same rules apply here chaps, the company doesn't owe you a command!!
What I think is common throughout the airline industry is the inaccuracy of peoples perception of their own ability.
Let me explain.... How many times have you been warned by a colleague about a particular trainer being a tw@t/@sshole/mean or scary only to find yourself with him on your next sim detail and discover that in actual fact he was perfectly ok and had deep knowledge and was a gent? The point being that unlike your friend, you actually bothered to put the work in!!!
The upgrade course here isn't hard (nor was the interview process when I did it a few years ago), but it DOES require a lot of preparation and study.
If anyone turns up 'half cocked' expecting to be spoon fed, then quite simply you WILL fail and quite rightly so. If you guys want a 12,000 dhs a month pay rise then put the god damned work into it like those before you have, don't expect to be given it on a silver platter!!!
Quite simply, if you put the effort in, have a professional attitude and turn up prepared, you WILL pass the course.........EASY. But frankly if after having sat in the RHS for over 4 years you are still unable to find or understand relevant info in the OM-A then you are a lazy git and deserve to spend all of eternity scratching your @rse in the F/O's seat....... STOP MAKING EXCUSES and start being professional.
There's an old British SAS saying "Train hard, Fight Easy". The same rules apply here chaps, the company doesn't owe you a command!!