For UAE ATCO's: Diversion from DXB to ALN or RAK
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For UAE ATCO's: Diversion from DXB to ALN or RAK
Any UAE ATCO's out here...?
In case of diversion to ALN or RAK from DXB, can one expect radar vectors to the final approach or do we anticipate the full procedural approach?
Thanks for clarifying,
EK380
In case of diversion to ALN or RAK from DXB, can one expect radar vectors to the final approach or do we anticipate the full procedural approach?
Thanks for clarifying,
EK380
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Speaking as a pilot:
I always work on the principle of "expect the procedural approach, plan for it, brief it and if something easier is offered then it's my lucky day" - and I apply that wherever I am. I also work on the principle of "ask for your preferred option - because if you don't ask, you won't get"
That doesn't answer your specific question, of course, but I reckon it#s a good philosophy.
I always work on the principle of "expect the procedural approach, plan for it, brief it and if something easier is offered then it's my lucky day" - and I apply that wherever I am. I also work on the principle of "ask for your preferred option - because if you don't ask, you won't get"
That doesn't answer your specific question, of course, but I reckon it#s a good philosophy.
Last edited by moggiee; 1st Mar 2011 at 09:20.
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procedural
These alts are so close to DXB, that you should expect a Radar vector, but remember the reason for the div, would suggest that the ATC are rather busy in DXB.
My suggestion: have a note of the Rak, and Al Ain Tower freqs, close to hand, and when you are getting close to a div situation, give them a heads up.
You then get current status of airport and weather, but more importantly they get a heads up that YOU are thinking of dropping in.
Both airports do not have much spare apron capacity.
Consider Dubai Spaceport, they have plenty of capacity, and I am sure would love to see you.
I would not be surprised, if this is not the nominated DIV for EK.
EY prefer Al Ain.
glf
My suggestion: have a note of the Rak, and Al Ain Tower freqs, close to hand, and when you are getting close to a div situation, give them a heads up.
You then get current status of airport and weather, but more importantly they get a heads up that YOU are thinking of dropping in.
Both airports do not have much spare apron capacity.
Consider Dubai Spaceport, they have plenty of capacity, and I am sure would love to see you.
I would not be surprised, if this is not the nominated DIV for EK.
EY prefer Al Ain.
glf
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But do remember before you elect "Dubai Spaceport" as DIV ALTN........
Only licensed for freight.....usually worse wx conditions than DXB.....don't know if I've seen stairs there, so expect a looong wait onboard......fuel farms empty, fuel has to be bowsered in......ARR only RWY30,DEP only RWY12.....arrivals and departures on the western side banned due to the arrival/departure path being built over a municipal waste dump
, hence severe birdstrike hazard........although the VVIP choppers can fly over it in VFR/SVFR
only takes one feathered friend, no matter what the a/c type.
El Elefante blanco
Only licensed for freight.....usually worse wx conditions than DXB.....don't know if I've seen stairs there, so expect a looong wait onboard......fuel farms empty, fuel has to be bowsered in......ARR only RWY30,DEP only RWY12.....arrivals and departures on the western side banned due to the arrival/departure path being built over a municipal waste dump
, hence severe birdstrike hazard........although the VVIP choppers can fly over it in VFR/SVFRonly takes one feathered friend, no matter what the a/c type. El Elefante blanco
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"Moggiee"
Regarding OMDW... arrival/departures to the west banned? That's new, Ek has been there doing circuits with EK A330's on ALL Runways (12 &30) multiple times!
Where is this info coming from please? Please state your source
Back to my original question... I was wondering if Dubai/UAE have the radar coverage to do the vectoring? Remarks like, plan on the longest one (procedural) do not help me. Thanks.
Regarding OMDW... arrival/departures to the west banned? That's new, Ek has been there doing circuits with EK A330's on ALL Runways (12 &30) multiple times!
Where is this info coming from please? Please state your source
Back to my original question... I was wondering if Dubai/UAE have the radar coverage to do the vectoring? Remarks like, plan on the longest one (procedural) do not help me. Thanks.
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Dubai Spaceport is licenced for Corporate NOW
But if the fan hits the sand, I would expect an instant re-license situation.
Yes I would agree that the fog potential is actually worse than for Dubai, as less warm obstructions to the rolling fog belt.
As they say, never build an airport, on the coast, in a valley on on the top of a hill.....( or next to a rubbish tip).( unless Bombay)
I believe that the radar capacity exists, and the lowest coverage is acceptable. All the major airports in UAE have ATM feeds, from multiple heads. (RAK certainly does, but UAQ did not).
RAK is procedural, and unless changed very recently NO Radar service. Yes the apron is small, but the pre call, will ensure that you do have your name on the list.....
As to the man power,, I await ATC professions to comment.
What to do.
glf
Yes I would agree that the fog potential is actually worse than for Dubai, as less warm obstructions to the rolling fog belt.
As they say, never build an airport, on the coast, in a valley on on the top of a hill.....( or next to a rubbish tip).( unless Bombay)
I believe that the radar capacity exists, and the lowest coverage is acceptable. All the major airports in UAE have ATM feeds, from multiple heads. (RAK certainly does, but UAQ did not).
RAK is procedural, and unless changed very recently NO Radar service. Yes the apron is small, but the pre call, will ensure that you do have your name on the list.....
As to the man power,, I await ATC professions to comment.
What to do.
glf
Last edited by Gulfstreamaviator; 1st Mar 2011 at 14:06. Reason: adding data
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OMAL should be radar 24 hours as far as I know, so you should be able to expect vectors for them (parking space permitting.)
OMRK is radar only for a few hours every day, I am not sure about the timings, but outside those hours it is procedural control only. UAE ACC and Dubai approach are not allowed to do vectors in OMRK airspace, no more than you are allowed to take control of a plane you are passenger in.
Also, if diverting to OMRK, expect not only the procedural approach, but also procedural separation, if there is someone else going in before you, expect 10-15 minutes in the hold for each aircraft ahead of you in the sequence.
Calling ahead as glf-aviator suggest does not really help much, diversions are taken on a first come, first served basis, and the apron on both airports gets full very quickly. In OMRK it is not uncommon for them not to accept a single wide-body diversion at all, sometimes not even narrow-bodies... So remember to bring that extra fuel.
OMDW only accepts cargo flights, so if you want to bring passengers there you will probably be denied.
Of course, if you are fuel critical and declare an emergency, then any airport will take you, but please rather bring the extra fuel needed to get to a real alternate
Reference OMDW runways available, it is NOTAM'ed, has been since December last year:
OMRK is radar only for a few hours every day, I am not sure about the timings, but outside those hours it is procedural control only. UAE ACC and Dubai approach are not allowed to do vectors in OMRK airspace, no more than you are allowed to take control of a plane you are passenger in.
Also, if diverting to OMRK, expect not only the procedural approach, but also procedural separation, if there is someone else going in before you, expect 10-15 minutes in the hold for each aircraft ahead of you in the sequence.
Calling ahead as glf-aviator suggest does not really help much, diversions are taken on a first come, first served basis, and the apron on both airports gets full very quickly. In OMRK it is not uncommon for them not to accept a single wide-body diversion at all, sometimes not even narrow-bodies... So remember to bring that extra fuel.
OMDW only accepts cargo flights, so if you want to bring passengers there you will probably be denied.
Of course, if you are fuel critical and declare an emergency, then any airport will take you, but please rather bring the extra fuel needed to get to a real alternate
Reference OMDW runways available, it is NOTAM'ed, has been since December last year:
XYA5555
GG ENHBZEZN ENZZNESI
231146 OMAEYNYX
(A0961/10 NOTAMN
Q) OMAE/QFAHX/IV/BO/A/000/999/2456N05505E005
A) OMDW
B) 1012240300 C) 1103230300
E) DUE TO INTENSE BIRD ACT AT WASTE SITE BOUNDED BY COORD
245541.44N 0550449.06E AND ASSOCIATED RISK OF BIRD STRIKE
IFR FLTS AT OMDW ARE RESTRICTED AS FLW:
RWY 12 - DEP ONLY
RWY 30 - ARR ONLY
VFR TRAINING FLTS ARE PERMITTED FOR EITHER RWY BUT MUST
REMAIN WI 5 DME FM JXB DVOR TO THE WNW.)
GG ENHBZEZN ENZZNESI
231146 OMAEYNYX
(A0961/10 NOTAMN
Q) OMAE/QFAHX/IV/BO/A/000/999/2456N05505E005
A) OMDW
B) 1012240300 C) 1103230300
E) DUE TO INTENSE BIRD ACT AT WASTE SITE BOUNDED BY COORD
245541.44N 0550449.06E AND ASSOCIATED RISK OF BIRD STRIKE
IFR FLTS AT OMDW ARE RESTRICTED AS FLW:
RWY 12 - DEP ONLY
RWY 30 - ARR ONLY
VFR TRAINING FLTS ARE PERMITTED FOR EITHER RWY BUT MUST
REMAIN WI 5 DME FM JXB DVOR TO THE WNW.)
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"Moggiee"
Regarding OMDW... arrival/departures to the west banned? That's new, Ek has been there doing circuits with EK A330's on ALL Runways (12 &30) multiple times!
Where is this info coming from please? Please state your source
Back to my original question... I was wondering if Dubai/UAE have the radar coverage to do the vectoring? Remarks like, plan on the longest one (procedural) do not help me. Thanks.
Regarding OMDW... arrival/departures to the west banned? That's new, Ek has been there doing circuits with EK A330's on ALL Runways (12 &30) multiple times!
Where is this info coming from please? Please state your source
Back to my original question... I was wondering if Dubai/UAE have the radar coverage to do the vectoring? Remarks like, plan on the longest one (procedural) do not help me. Thanks.
Why does "plan for procedural" not help? It's the worst case scenario at most airports and should be in your thoughts. Get your Jepps out and stop relying on someone else to do the work!
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CC
Beat me to it. Spot on.
Moggie,
Plan for procedural is definitely the correct course - almost definite at RK and certainly won't hurt to be prepared in AL. As stated, both have VERY limited space available.
As for DW - your chances of a diversion there are about as good as ours of moving into the new radar room to use state-of-the-art radar equipment that does what it says on the box!
Beat me to it. Spot on.
Moggie,
Plan for procedural is definitely the correct course - almost definite at RK and certainly won't hurt to be prepared in AL. As stated, both have VERY limited space available.
As for DW - your chances of a diversion there are about as good as ours of moving into the new radar room to use state-of-the-art radar equipment that does what it says on the box!
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Plan for longest
Two aspects: firstly the FMS can be set up with the full arrival, and then be shortened as required easier that added to.
Secondly, the fuel commitment will be available, so IF the longest route then the min fuel required will not be compromised.
glf
Secondly, the fuel commitment will be available, so IF the longest route then the min fuel required will not be compromised.
glf
I've had more diversions since I've come to the UAE over the last five years than I've had in thirty years in my previous company. Generally they've been rather painless, a vector in the direction of the alternate plus vectors on to the final approach. All diversions due to fog at AUH.
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Really good management if all or most aircraft of DXB and AUH airlines are automatically computer planned into the same nearest most cost effective Diversion airport... which also has limited parking.
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Sharjah, is closer but congested
Sharjah, has limited capacity, apron wise, a very congested terminal, and whilst closer to DXB, perhaps not so practical.
The weather in DXB would normally be the same within a few minutes SJH will get it too.
The arrival and holds and atc services are identical for DXB as SJH, so no real saving there either.
Now Fujairah, is a different solution, still limited in apron capacity, but atc, routs, and holds, mostly different. A reasonable termianl, plenty of space, a new FBO, for the exec, and plenty of car, bus parking. Not so easy to coach crews and pax to DXB, but in my opinion an all together better alternate.
glf
The weather in DXB would normally be the same within a few minutes SJH will get it too.
The arrival and holds and atc services are identical for DXB as SJH, so no real saving there either.
Now Fujairah, is a different solution, still limited in apron capacity, but atc, routs, and holds, mostly different. A reasonable termianl, plenty of space, a new FBO, for the exec, and plenty of car, bus parking. Not so easy to coach crews and pax to DXB, but in my opinion an all together better alternate.
glf
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I am unable to confirm the ATC procedures or anything up in the sky......
On the ground at SHJ, there is apron space available 90% of the time.
If airlines divert, the majority of the time it would be expected to be a 'fuel and go', so terminal capacity surely wouldn't be an issue.
On the ground at SHJ, there is apron space available 90% of the time.
If airlines divert, the majority of the time it would be expected to be a 'fuel and go', so terminal capacity surely wouldn't be an issue.
