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Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

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Old 11th Jan 2018, 01:20   #4281 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brasil
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaman Staynes View Post
Debacle over duty free yes or no, parked aircraft, no DSVP (guy who runs Flight Ops, 1 step below COO) - he resigned in summer , no Assistant DSVP - resigned as well in summer, communication flow down only - no way of passing on up channel (forums no more), experience levels in both seat free falling - simple answer more briefings and go arounds from FAF if not in correct config, lots now covering their arses over the simplest of things and not using common sense (f**k the knowledge levels worries me -especially from ex rj who know USA but not much else!!!),crisis management now chaos management, B777 FO finishing training but only allowed to fly to to areas covered in training (have to wait to get another training flight to cover other areas of world later and get freighter training possibly if a trainer can do it or if one free - unlikely and guys now avoiding freighter if they can!), longer to upgrade, roster system useless, you might get one flight that you want 2 months out of 5 (a long story to explain) -just look at swap system to see the number of people unhappy with what they got and thats just a taster of EK at the moment........ and still people want to join!
Are you kidding me!
Present guys who thought they'd stay 7 years now thinking stay 5 years until bond paid off - longer bond if you get upgrade!!
Due diligence!!
People who join now worry me!

Many pilots are leaving nowadays?
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Old 11th Jan 2018, 03:26   #4282 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Post-Pit and Lovin' It.
Posts: 785
"Many pilots Leaving?" BWAHAHAHAH!

More like, who the hell is actually applying/joining these days? It was a "need to feed my family cause I'm unemployed" acceptable option for a long time but now it seems to have descended into the "not even if the only other option is Ryanair or driving a lorry" category. (I'm referring to new-joiners, before the old-timers get grumpy and defensive.)

You can't really use the "at least it's a job" excuse when it's not - you move your whole life to the ME and you're chained to it for minimum five years.

My sympathies to those who truly believe they have no other option.
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Old 11th Jan 2018, 03:27   #4283 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: FL370
Posts: 87
EK just took 200 DEC from up the road too, so probably 8+yr to left seat now. I'd be surprised if anyone stays that long anymore !
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Old 11th Jan 2018, 06:12   #4284 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dusty West
Age: 47
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Originally Posted by felixthecat View Post
75hrs? Long time since I have been anywhere near as low as 75 hours.....
Not so. I saw 75 hours in months where I had two weeks of leave so its possible.
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Old 11th Jan 2018, 06:17   #4285 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dusty West
Age: 47
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Originally Posted by Non rev View Post
Asking for a friend:

how does EK looks upon someone who had a "criminal record" for getting In a fight with their girl friend? The record is of misdemeanor in US. Any insight will be helpful.
They'll make him a DEC on the 777 and roster him all DFW.

Wait a few months, the way things are going they'll be hiring people that might be able to spell "airplane"...who needs an ATPL anyway?
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Old 11th Jan 2018, 06:23   #4286 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dusty West
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aviadorbrasil View Post
Many pilots are leaving nowadays?
Brasil.

Speaks volumes.

Where have you been Aviador? Did you happen to miss the last 3 years of 1000's of postings about all the resignations?

Do you guys have internet there or have you been hiding in a cave somewhere?
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Old 11th Jan 2018, 08:03   #4287 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: usa
Posts: 919
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Originally Posted by The Outlaw View Post
Brasil.

Speaks volumes.

Where have you been Aviador? Did you happen to miss the last 3 years of 1000's of postings about all the resignations?

Do you guys have internet there or have you been hiding in a cave somewhere?
Classy.

No dog in the fight of the personal reasons any wannabe should join or not - but rest assured if you do, the flight decks are for the most part occupied by a really good bunch of guys and gals.

The above poster does not represent who we are as a group.
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Old 11th Jan 2018, 08:42   #4288 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Standby, Resyncing other FMC...
Posts: 127
"Who in their right mind is joining now"
"This used to be a good job but not anymore"
"EK is scraping the barrel"
"Anyone with a pulse will be hired"

Use the search function and you will find comments like these from every year between 2005 and now. You will also find that most of the posts are written by people who still are in EK.
Through friends in EK I'm aware that conditions deteriorates every year but that's true for almost every airline in the world (with some exceptions that are unavailable for the majority of pilots). That however does't mean that people joining are stupid.

Last edited by expat400; 11th Jan 2018 at 10:57.
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Old 11th Jan 2018, 11:16   #4289 (permalink)
short flights long nights
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
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expat400...except for one thing. It is a very different proposition moving from..lets say London to Hamburg..to become an expat.

when you move to the ME as an Expat...you are "lured" with a "contract" that promises certain things...things you may well expect as a person deciding to move his/her family from the home in a Western Country to the ME.

What you soon discover, is the "contract" you have is not worth the paper it is written on...and there is no avenue of appeal when it is changed, always for the worst.

It is funny you note hoe post back to 2005 start talking about how things were getting bad at EK. I joined in 2005, then it was the greatest job in the world..by 2006..slowly the rot started. I had left my previous job on "good faith" that the contract I signed would be honoured.

Im happy to send you a copy of it...it says something about 78 hour monthly rosters..6 weeks annual leave....and on and on..

My last roster when I left was 98 hours, I had had 3 weeks leave in 14 months..."but its all legal Captain..."

I say again...there is a big difference in sitting in your own home ( insert your country here) and getting different conditions, to sitting in Dubai a long way from home, and having them stuffed down your thought....My opinion only.
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Old 11th Jan 2018, 12:26   #4290 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Standby, Resyncing other FMC...
Posts: 127
I completely understand your point SOPS. I was an expat for 9 years myself. Moved the family halfway around the world. Our "contract" was set in stone about the same way your was... and treated the same way sometimes.

I'm not saying "love it or leave it", there are multiple reasons for people to stay on even when things go south. What I don't like is when current EK-pilots call people joining "stupid", "third world" etc.

Although the current EK T&C:s are bad compared to the ones many people joined on it can still be a great improvement to other pilots life.

Regarding 2005, obviously some pilots didn't think EK was good... These quotes are from that year:

"need to put out the applications and start looking around. EK is just so arrogant. This use to be a very good job (and still is for the 3rd world) but with Europe paying more and more now that is the place to be. We will always be treated no better that an Indian to management and it is time we start going to greener pastures. I have had it.”

“-an average work month of ~75hrs/month increased to an average of ~91hrs/month
-insertion of ‘operational plans’ for various destinations that would otherwise require breaking flight duty limits
-the use of scheduled block hours that do not reflect the actual time required to carry out a flight. In other words, shaving off of 10 to 15 minutes per leg that would have counted towards our monthly credit limit
-duty time reduced from chocks plus 30 minutes to ‘chocks on’
-an increase of fatigue ASR’s (air safety reports) from 1 per 4 months to 3 per week
-simulator and ground school duties not counting towards flight duty limits
-the DEC policy
-a loss of quality TRE’s and TRI’s
-the insertion of reserve days throughout my schedule, thereby breaking up any stretch of days off.
-an average of 1 reserve day/month increased to an average of 4 reserve days/month
-reserve days no longer counted towards pay or monthly duty limits (resulting in being able to have us available on 45 minutes notice for 10 hours at no cost to the company)
-the probability of being called to work on reserve dramatically increased
-the enforcement of written authorization to leave dubai on ‘off’ days
-the coming and going of the illegal ‘factored’ flying hours, although there is nothing official about the demise of this policy
-the utilization of crew rest facilities whereby a Captain is required to rest in the compartment at the rear of the aircraft while still remaining PIC.
-the utilization of crew rest facilities consisting of a first class seat sometimes seated next to a passenger. This results in rest taken during in-flight services etc.
-the institution of the ‘fatigue model’ into the bidding system
-the institution of the adopt bid system
-the removal of credit and block hours listed on our schedules
-the inability to take leave during the year due to the lack of available leave periods

- an increase in the number of pilots willingly working on days off
-a huge increase in the number of ‘no shows’ on initial courses
-a demographic shift in the pilots accepting courses at Emirates
-a massive increase in the number of pilots resigning from Emirates and also from positions within Emirates
-massive cost of living increases”

“Unfortunately the way they are operating a lot of loyalty is being lost throughout, guys who would have stayed here till 60 will always be on the edge of there seat and looking for better options.
Its sad Emirates has come to this, just another contract job.”

“CVs all over the web, now if I can get my lucky ticket punched”
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Old 11th Jan 2018, 13:16   #4291 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brasil
Posts: 23
If a guy gets very well on the tests during screening, but have some problem in the medical exams, for this “pilots missing”, they could decided to hire him?
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Old 11th Jan 2018, 19:54   #4292 (permalink)


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Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Kabul
Posts: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aviadorbrasil View Post
If a guy gets very well on the tests during screening, but have some problem in the medical exams, for this “pilots missing”, they could decided to hire him?
Unlikely. You must meet the medical requirements of the GCAA as listed online.

Expat400, you are right...a lot of airlines nowadays have worse conditions. I'm willing to bet on paper, things look amazing for AviadorBrasil. Even to me, when I joined! Despite being aware of the 'negativity' here - I figured I'm a pretty positive person to be able to withstand those issues and after all - most airlines nowadays are not much better right?

You know what the problem is though? Things appear to be deteriorating here at a much faster rate than those quotes from 2005. A lot of people moan and whine in every airline but out of the different companies I've worked for as an expat (in Asia and the Middle East) - I have never seen such a large number of discontented people in my life. Cabin crew and pilots alike.

You are eager to do the interview and you come and you feel like a great professional, passing all the exams and passing the interview with flying colors and thinking "wow, I put in the effort and I am being rewarded with a contract to fly for this global airline...and I guess all my preparation must have impressed on them that I am a real professional". You will go back to your hotel feeling somewhat proud, because it seems to be a challenging interview process, considering many people fail.

But you are not treated as a professional after you join. That feeling erodes very quickly, and it is replaced by a sense of bewilderment - how did I not see these things before? Certainly the HR folks and the contract didn't indicate things would be this way! How come as a 'professional pilot', I used to be able to sign in guests to my company apartment without a big fuss, but now I must subject them to having their ID scanned and kept in a database? Who has access to the database? (The company obviously). If you are married then ok, perhaps you have access to a villa and do not have to worry about these things...

Why as crew I cannot purchase a nice bottle of wine on my layover or bring back my favourite beer without hassles? I could before, when I joined not too long ago! But not anymore! They will stop you after you go through customs, take your alcohol away and only give it back after you make your way to Terminal 3 and pay your duties and taxes. Gee - I sure feel like a respected professional. Not like some child at all, having my things taken away.

Ok what else? Come on, I am an EK professional pilot, I passed the difficult interview process - out of 10 people, only 4 passed and I am one of them! Surely they saw something special right?

Nah. They need to fill seats, and once you're in they could care less about you. The time they do care and show great concern for you is when you have broken one of their rules. Reported sick after annual leave but unable to get a booking at the company clinic (or too sick to go there)? Oh, you must explain yourself and pending an investigation, it will be decided what punishment will be applied. What? Am I a teenager? Give me a break! Other colleagues have numerous stories of their run ins with management, and honestly each time you hear it, you just want to laugh. They have no clue how to manage people, and they revert to the punishment style, which to them is the best way. Well not for long. No self-respecting individual will put up with that very long. I haven't been here long and am already applying for jobs back home. I don't care what EK pays us, the pathetic rules that make you feel like a child and the constantly increasing costs of living do not make it worthwhile anymore. Some may beg to differ and that is good for them, but to most of my colleagues...they have had enough. The company can implement a bond for newly upgraded captains, they can increase the first officer bond as they did a while back, but this will backfire on them. You do not retain people by treating them like this.

So Aviador, I'm sure on paper this job is better than the one you have, and no one can fault you for wanting to come over. Just keep in mind that at some point - maybe six months, maybe one year later, you will realize what a sad place this has become, and how inept and out of touch with reality the management is, and how little respect you receive as a "professional", that not only will you not enjoy your time here, you will even start to question how it can even be possible to stay longer than 3 years in this place (with its numerous challenges and issues) and this company (with its ever increasing incidents and punishments and rules which only make things worse).

Anyways good luck with the interview process!
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Old 11th Jan 2018, 21:20   #4293 (permalink)
short flights long nights
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aviadorbrasil View Post
If a guy gets very well on the tests during screening, but have some problem in the medical exams, for this “pilots missing”, they could decided to hire him?
I'm not sure I fully understand your question, but if your asking if you fail the medical, will they hire you, I would say the answer is no.
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Old 12th Jan 2018, 04:44   #4294 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: FL370
Posts: 87
Good post EKam. Personally I am waiting for the provident fund to be released then I will go back home too. Life is too short for this sh*t. Sadly it isn't just EK, the whole industry is crumbling at an alarming rate.

My advice to new joiners is make sure you milk this place for all its worth and fill that money bucket as quickly as possible. Don't get sucked into the glitz and glamour dxb lifestyle that many do, you will end up STUCK here!
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Old 12th Jan 2018, 10:01   #4295 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: FinalApproach
Age: 36
Posts: 77
@Ekamactions isn't there anyone who is enjoying Woking with Emirates as a pilot? I am asking because your post looks like no one is there.
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Old 12th Jan 2018, 10:09   #4296 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Kingston upon Thames
Posts: 52
Not me.
Not enjoying anything here.
like someone already said:
everyone has his reason to be here, but, it is a fact that conditions both in the airline and in this place are deteriorating on a daily basis.
If something is improving, read better, you misunderstood it, it isn't.

Regards,

KL
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Old 12th Jan 2018, 13:10   #4297 (permalink)


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Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Kabul
Posts: 6
Mgggpilot:

As with every company, it is subjective - yes there are a few. I shared the transport home a few weeks back with a pilot who was raving about EK and how great it was - he has been here 2 years and came from a low cost in Central America. You can imagine what he must have been earning back home.

If you shut everything out, and just do your job and then go home and forget all things EK - then *maybe* you can keep your sanity. But you have to sort of turn yourself into a robot then, without questioning anything and just carrying out your tasks loyally - which is EXACTLY what management wants. Make sure you make NO mistakes though, because you are now a robot and the company sees you as such.

It is the petty small things that slowly gnaw at you and your self-respect. Rules are constantly put out to punish the masses as a result of one or two individuals misbehaving. As I mentioned earlier - one or two people abused the guest sign-in process at the company apartment? No problem - EVERYONE must now spend 10 min having a guest signed in and having their passport/ID scanned and kept in some sort of company database. Hello Tomorrow, Goodbye Privacy! Move out of company accommodation you say? I would but they now took away the housing allowance! The only way to get it is by investing in this place and buying a property. No thanks.

Someone caused a little trouble or was late to the airport while on a layover because they went home to see family and friends? No problem, now NO cabin crew is allowed to go home from the airport downroute - they must travel and check in to the hotel first. Does not sound like a big deal except that in many cases, this is a huge inconvenience due to distance or traffic (layovers can be short, so time spent with loved ones is valuable!). We had one girl onboard whose parents drove all the way to the airport to pick her up, having not seen her in a few months. She was unaware of the new rule. On arrival she gave them a hug and had to tell them to go back home since the captain had no authority to allow her to go home (allowing her would then bring the possibility of him getting into trouble). This is a huge deal for cabin crew (as was the freedom to bring in duty-free alcohol) and taking this privilege away from them has only made them more miserable now - so enjoy the positivity and camaraderie when they come see you in the flightdeck!

Some incidents occurred on the line, and instead of identifying root causes (inept management and leadership from the higher ups), they pass on more rules and amendment to SOPs. More briefings. More talking and distractions from your primary task - simply flying the aeroplane. I would say even rocket science is less complex than EK's take on how to fly.

Anyways, sure...every company has its issues. However I must say this one has the most from any company I've worked for. And the large number of dissatisfied colleagues DOES take a toll on you, no matter how ignorant you want to be. You try and shut things out as best as you can, but when you receive emails with new rules and you can clearly see the company does not know what it's doing, and none of the emails bring good news (only cost increases, or benefits being cut), AND then you observe the same happening in the place you live, with costs increasing, tax on goods being applied, more rules and more fees, you then ask yourself what is the purpose to be here?!?! All my colleagues back home talk of the camaraderie they have with their crews, cockpit and cabin crews alike. They all enjoy their layovers and time spent with one another. That is very rare over here. No one is enjoying their work and many are planning on leaving the first chance they get. We spend a large part of our lives at work, I'd like to enjoy it just a little bit if you dont mind! "Yalla habibi, shut your mouth and complete your tasks without mistakes! One mistake and you are out!". This is how I would characterize the general feeling coming from the very top of this organization.

Make what you want of it. You will be impressed initially with the company's supposed structure and organization, but your eyes will be opened the more time you spend on the line. The petty rules which ooze with unsaid but implied lack of respect for you as an employee, coupled with high costs and new and creative ways to take your money (Skype blocked? No problem, pay us 50dhs and we let you use it (true story)), just slowly make you disgusted of even being present here.

This place used to be pretty good for an expat. Lots of complaints since 2005, sure...but they've lost the plot forsure now, and they're pushing a lot more people away than ever.

As sealear said, come and make some money if you can, but good luck trying to have a career here. With the way the rules change and the way they implement punishments as their way of managing you, you will get fed up very very quickly.

I have to say, my previous airlines WERE better, shame on EK for ruining what could be a fantastic place to work for.
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Old 12th Jan 2018, 18:06   #4298 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: About
Posts: 189
Does this look like a happy company?

Pilot attrition is just under 9%
*Training* Pilot attrition is 12%
Tim Clark says all available 777s will be required for a full schedule from May (although we just have enough pilots to cover March’s roster)
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Old 12th Jan 2018, 22:13   #4299 (permalink)


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Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Flight deck
Posts: 12
Question: is there any AME in Europe where I can take an initial GCAA class 1 medical? Just want to give it a try and then apply rather then come there and find out on the last day of the selection process (if I make it till that point!) that I don't meet GCAA's standards for any reason.
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Old 13th Jan 2018, 01:25   #4300 (permalink)
short flights long nights
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banana Joe View Post
Question: is there any AME in Europe where I can take an initial GCAA class 1 medical? Just want to give it a try and then apply rather then come there and find out on the last day of the selection process (if I make it till that point!) that I don't meet GCAA's standards for any reason.
I know of one...but I would not send my worst enemy to him. If however you would like to see an example of how you can be treated at EK..PM for his details, however I strongly suggest you stay far away.
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