Etihad Airways 320 pilot exceeds 320 kts below 3000'
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Take a look at this
"Closure rate 1000kts. In the air GS has no affect on closure rate."
That has to be one of the most stupid things i ever heard. So basically what you are saying is if my aircraft has a TAS of 500KTS but a groundspeed of 400KTS that it will have less of an impact then if my aircraft has a TAS of 400KTS but a groundspeed of 450KTS ??????????????
That has to be one of the most stupid things i ever heard. So basically what you are saying is if my aircraft has a TAS of 500KTS but a groundspeed of 400KTS that it will have less of an impact then if my aircraft has a TAS of 400KTS but a groundspeed of 450KTS ??????????????
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Turk,
I ll try one more time.
Example 2.
Two helicopters are Indicating 0 IAS and there is a 100kt wind. GS = 100kts, Closure rate 0kts.
Using the old
EK = (1/2)mv2
The kinetic energy generated by their impact is 0 since their relative velocity (IAS/TAS) is 0 , and ie they would never collide.
But if while they were sitting there fat dumb and happy struck a Big F--k Off mountain at 100kt GS, the V in the formula becomes GS.
You seem to have a problem grasping wind effect.
With comments like:
“So technically you could be doing 310 KIAS and have a 100KT tailwind so the impact would be at 410knots. So really its kinda of a BS limitation”
I surely hope you are not flying fare paying passengers around.
The end.
I ll try one more time.
Example 2.
Two helicopters are Indicating 0 IAS and there is a 100kt wind. GS = 100kts, Closure rate 0kts.
Using the old
EK = (1/2)mv2
The kinetic energy generated by their impact is 0 since their relative velocity (IAS/TAS) is 0 , and ie they would never collide.
But if while they were sitting there fat dumb and happy struck a Big F--k Off mountain at 100kt GS, the V in the formula becomes GS.
You seem to have a problem grasping wind effect.
With comments like:
“So technically you could be doing 310 KIAS and have a 100KT tailwind so the impact would be at 410knots. So really its kinda of a BS limitation”
I surely hope you are not flying fare paying passengers around.
The end.
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this is too funny
Inciter, first of all im really getting sick and tired of your stupid attacks against me. What kind of professional are you? I never even said anything against you, but since you opened that can of worms let me explain something to your amoeba sized level of intellect. First of all, the example regarding the helicopters, if they are at PURE zero speed and there are on a path directly inline with one another, converging, with a 100mph wind, then obviously there is going to be a collision. I know you haven't graduated from MS flight sim yet, but if you ever flew a 152 (cessna if u know what that word is) right about stall speed into a 40 or 50 kt headwind you would be going backwards.
Do you even have a clue about vectors? And no, i am not talking about the RADAR VECTORS that you probably need during a visual since your situational awareness is probably as good as Stevie Wonder at a rave party. I am talking about VELOCITY VECTORS. Okay, one more time for you.
AIRCRAFT A IS ON HDG 360 IAS OF 500KTS
AIRCRAFT B IS ON HDG 180 IAS OF 500 KTS
FACT: THEY ARE GOING TO COLLIDE
WIND IS 360/100KTS
AIRCRAFT A G/S IS 400KTS
AIRCRAFT B G/S IS 600 KTS
CLOSURE RATE IS 1000KTS
WITH ME SO FAR?????
TAS is relative to temperature and density. So the FORCE OF IMPACT HAS NO BEARING ON WHAT THE TRUE AIRSPEED IS
Do you have it now??? I sure hope so. And as far as your remarks, buddy i forgot more then you know!!!!
Do you even have a clue about vectors? And no, i am not talking about the RADAR VECTORS that you probably need during a visual since your situational awareness is probably as good as Stevie Wonder at a rave party. I am talking about VELOCITY VECTORS. Okay, one more time for you.
AIRCRAFT A IS ON HDG 360 IAS OF 500KTS
AIRCRAFT B IS ON HDG 180 IAS OF 500 KTS
FACT: THEY ARE GOING TO COLLIDE
WIND IS 360/100KTS
AIRCRAFT A G/S IS 400KTS
AIRCRAFT B G/S IS 600 KTS
CLOSURE RATE IS 1000KTS
WITH ME SO FAR?????
TAS is relative to temperature and density. So the FORCE OF IMPACT HAS NO BEARING ON WHAT THE TRUE AIRSPEED IS
Do you have it now??? I sure hope so. And as far as your remarks, buddy i forgot more then you know!!!!
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ok
Actually an even better example. Those two same aircraft are at 90 degree angles to one another. So the wind coming out of the north does not affect the ac that is flying on lets say HDG 090. So are you going to tell me now, that groundspeed does not matter? I stand corrected on the example of 2 ac converging head on, as the wind would make one ac have a slower gs, and one a faster so it would equal out. But if they are on opposite tracks, such as what i just described then ofcourse groundspeed will matter as hitting the other ac will be the same as hitting a mountain
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Turk,
You fail to understand that your bird in the original sentence has nothing to do with the 100 kts tailwind, it's irrelevant ... If you hit the ground it is relevant since you will hit it faster or slower but in the same airmass it just doesn't matter because the same windspeed applies to any aircraft/bird/ufo in the same airmass.
If you fly 300 kts in zero wind and hit a bird flying 10 kts it's the same as if you fly 300 kts in 100 kts wind (from any direction you like) and hit a bird flying 10 kts.
If you still don't get it at least stop bit**ing and read from any other source you may like.
You fail to understand that your bird in the original sentence has nothing to do with the 100 kts tailwind, it's irrelevant ... If you hit the ground it is relevant since you will hit it faster or slower but in the same airmass it just doesn't matter because the same windspeed applies to any aircraft/bird/ufo in the same airmass.
If you fly 300 kts in zero wind and hit a bird flying 10 kts it's the same as if you fly 300 kts in 100 kts wind (from any direction you like) and hit a bird flying 10 kts.
If you still don't get it at least stop bit**ing and read from any other source you may like.
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Turk,
I just can’t help myself, so one more time for the dummies!
The helicopter example has gone right over your head. WTF is “PURE ZERO”?
I said an indicated IAS of 0.
Let’s just use your example so you might understand it better.
“but if you ever flew a 152 (cessna if u know what that word is) right about stall speed into a 40 or 50 kt headwind you would be going backwards.”
Exactly, and if there was another C152 right in front of yours doing exactly the same thing, it would be going backwards at the same rate, so they would never collide.
THAT IS THE BIT YOUR ARE HAVING PROBLEMS WITH.
Let’s just use your latest example:
“Actually an even better example. Those two same aircraft are at 90 degree angles to one another. So the wind coming out of the north does not affect the ac that is flying on lets say HDG 090. So are you going to tell me now, that groundspeed does not matter? I stand corrected on the example of 2 ac converging head on, as the wind would make one ac have a slower gs, and one a faster so it would equal out. But if they are on opposite tracks, such as what i just described then ofcourse groundspeed will matter as hitting the other ac will be the same as hitting a mountain”
Spot on, but it would be like hitting a mountain if the aircraft were flying a TRACK and not HEADING.
PLEASE ANSWER THE FOLLOWING
1. What would be the difference if any in closure rate in your above example, if the two aircraft were flying on Headings and not Track? Tas 500kts, wind 360/100kts , one aircraft heading south and the other east.
If the math gets a bit much, you could always rely on that superior vector knowledge. Get your crayons out, draw the little diagram to scale and just read off the results.
2. Your maximum flap/slat extension is 200kts, minimum clean 190kts and your GS 270kts. At what speed would you extend flap?
You’ve gone from, aircraft speed limitations are academic or BS because GS is the determining factor, to Kinetic energy and now vectors.
I guess you’ll be blaming Coriolis next!
DKZ, come on mate don't spoil it! Let him go if not only for the entertainment factor.
I just can’t help myself, so one more time for the dummies!
The helicopter example has gone right over your head. WTF is “PURE ZERO”?
I said an indicated IAS of 0.
Let’s just use your example so you might understand it better.
“but if you ever flew a 152 (cessna if u know what that word is) right about stall speed into a 40 or 50 kt headwind you would be going backwards.”
Exactly, and if there was another C152 right in front of yours doing exactly the same thing, it would be going backwards at the same rate, so they would never collide.
THAT IS THE BIT YOUR ARE HAVING PROBLEMS WITH.
Let’s just use your latest example:
“Actually an even better example. Those two same aircraft are at 90 degree angles to one another. So the wind coming out of the north does not affect the ac that is flying on lets say HDG 090. So are you going to tell me now, that groundspeed does not matter? I stand corrected on the example of 2 ac converging head on, as the wind would make one ac have a slower gs, and one a faster so it would equal out. But if they are on opposite tracks, such as what i just described then ofcourse groundspeed will matter as hitting the other ac will be the same as hitting a mountain”
Spot on, but it would be like hitting a mountain if the aircraft were flying a TRACK and not HEADING.
PLEASE ANSWER THE FOLLOWING
1. What would be the difference if any in closure rate in your above example, if the two aircraft were flying on Headings and not Track? Tas 500kts, wind 360/100kts , one aircraft heading south and the other east.
If the math gets a bit much, you could always rely on that superior vector knowledge. Get your crayons out, draw the little diagram to scale and just read off the results.
2. Your maximum flap/slat extension is 200kts, minimum clean 190kts and your GS 270kts. At what speed would you extend flap?
You’ve gone from, aircraft speed limitations are academic or BS because GS is the determining factor, to Kinetic energy and now vectors.
I guess you’ll be blaming Coriolis next!
DKZ, come on mate don't spoil it! Let him go if not only for the entertainment factor.
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Sorry to be intruding in this nice scuffle between you guys (Turkpilot Vs inciter) 
, but I couldn't resist the temptation!
I have to say that inciter is right
(sorry Turkpilot!! 
).
It seems to me that you wrote something wrong without giving it too much of a thought and you are too proud to admit it.
But if you really believe in what you are saying, consider the following:
Since you brought up VECTORs, you must know that vectors make sense ONLY in relation to the reference system in which they are drawn. In the case of two flying objects in the air, the reference system is the air mass in which they fly. Therefore the speed to consider is that relative to the air (call it as you wish TAS CAS EAS IAS, as long as you use the SAME speed system for BOTH objects).
If the air mass is moving, that's IRRELEVANT to the issue. Both objects are affected in the SAME way.
Otherwise you should also consider:
I hope this helps!
F&F
, but I couldn't resist the temptation! I have to say that inciter is right
(sorry Turkpilot!! ).It seems to me that you wrote something wrong without giving it too much of a thought and you are too proud to admit it.
But if you really believe in what you are saying, consider the following:
Since you brought up VECTORs, you must know that vectors make sense ONLY in relation to the reference system in which they are drawn. In the case of two flying objects in the air, the reference system is the air mass in which they fly. Therefore the speed to consider is that relative to the air (call it as you wish TAS CAS EAS IAS, as long as you use the SAME speed system for BOTH objects).
If the air mass is moving, that's IRRELEVANT to the issue. Both objects are affected in the SAME way.
Otherwise you should also consider:
- the Earth's rotation (west to east slightly over 1000 kts at the equator x cosin of latitude);
- the Earth's orbit speed around the sun (67000 kts)
- the Solar system speed around the galaxy (600000 kts)
- the expansion speed of the galaxy from the big bang forward
- and, if you are a believer, the speed at which your god carries around his little science experiment to school for show and tell!!!
I hope this helps!
F&F
