EK safety culture
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Dunesville
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stylo, what has really gone on are cost cuts after cost cuts. Increases in productivity pushing all staff, flight and ground, to unsafe levels so that you can enjoy a cheap ticket and Dubai Inc has a source of income.
Yes it happens in other airlines but there are no 'limits' here, only 'targets' and the GCAA are led by the airline and there is nothing in between to moderate it.
It is not just the pilots warning of a serious accident. We will however be the ones held accountable for it, but there will be many others who will be responsible.
Yes it happens in other airlines but there are no 'limits' here, only 'targets' and the GCAA are led by the airline and there is nothing in between to moderate it.
It is not just the pilots warning of a serious accident. We will however be the ones held accountable for it, but there will be many others who will be responsible.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: pit
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
stylo, you might be a little less condescending on the jockeys if you knew that one postholder training (the responsible guy for that matter) raised attention to the whole safety problem at a higher up meeting, just to be issued a warning letter from the big boss.
Does that answer the question about any kind of safety culture at this outfit?
Does that answer the question about any kind of safety culture at this outfit?
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: DXB
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't believe Emirates is "waiting for a hull loss" There is always going to be a tug of war between flight safety and the commercial departments in an airline. Safety cost money and that invariably eats into the bottom line.
The balance was good until the financial crisis started and pressure was put on all departments within the airline to save money. Unfortunately the top management in flight operations saw an opportunity to cut costs by making flight crews work 20% more at no extra pay. An unpopular decision to say the least. Unfortunately this also results in increased fatigue and unsatisfactory rosters. The big question to be asked is, is it unsafe. Most experts would think so. A GCAA auditor recently told me that the regulator feels that anything above 70 hours a month starts to impose an exponential risk to safety. Who knows.
The GCAA are aware of all the issues and are trying to rectify them. But as the same GCAA inspector told me "They need more paperwork from us".
The balance was good until the financial crisis started and pressure was put on all departments within the airline to save money. Unfortunately the top management in flight operations saw an opportunity to cut costs by making flight crews work 20% more at no extra pay. An unpopular decision to say the least. Unfortunately this also results in increased fatigue and unsatisfactory rosters. The big question to be asked is, is it unsafe. Most experts would think so. A GCAA auditor recently told me that the regulator feels that anything above 70 hours a month starts to impose an exponential risk to safety. Who knows.
The GCAA are aware of all the issues and are trying to rectify them. But as the same GCAA inspector told me "They need more paperwork from us".
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Varies!
Posts: 727
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pool
The advantage of forums such as these will always allow statements to be made with very little opportunity for validation. Despite the negative perception many pilots have regarding the safety and reporting culture within Emirates, I find it very hard to believe that such action would be taken for someone expressing a safety concern.
I actually find it disappointing when statements such as this are made. It does nothing whatsoever to enhance safety in our operation, in fact, quite the opposite. It undoes the hard work that many people put in to encourage the reporting of genuine safety issues. It also creates a fear culture, often based on rumour rather than fact.
Even if your claim is true, there is always a lot more to a story than first meets the eye.
The advantage of forums such as these will always allow statements to be made with very little opportunity for validation. Despite the negative perception many pilots have regarding the safety and reporting culture within Emirates, I find it very hard to believe that such action would be taken for someone expressing a safety concern.
I actually find it disappointing when statements such as this are made. It does nothing whatsoever to enhance safety in our operation, in fact, quite the opposite. It undoes the hard work that many people put in to encourage the reporting of genuine safety issues. It also creates a fear culture, often based on rumour rather than fact.
Even if your claim is true, there is always a lot more to a story than first meets the eye.
Last edited by BYMONEK; 10th Oct 2010 at 06:54.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Dubai
Posts: 322
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've been battling for weeks now to have "SK" on my roster replaced with "SKF"..(for those not familar with EK codes..."SK" is sick, "SKF' is fatigued.
..clinic doctor signed off, ASR filed, fatigue report lodged. And still it's on my roster as "sick". No response to a number of emails sent to fleet...oh what a surprise.
One would think that perhaps certain people in this company really don't want the GCAA to see the number of fatigue reports going in?
..clinic doctor signed off, ASR filed, fatigue report lodged. And still it's on my roster as "sick". No response to a number of emails sent to fleet...oh what a surprise.
One would think that perhaps certain people in this company really don't want the GCAA to see the number of fatigue reports going in?
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: camelshitcity
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What makes me really laugh is that most of the people miss the big picture.
Dubai social and cultural level is at the Middle Age.
It is governed by a guy dressed peculiarly that is just interested in money.
Unfortunately he thought the world was full of idiot ready to buy a property in his Middle Age reign but that was not the case. The reign is crumbling.
EK is not interested in safety is interested in money to give him to repay the humungous debt he managed to make building some of the most absurd constructions in the world.
EK to make this money is using a Middle Age style with a Gestapo touch i.e.
enslaving employers and taking them to the limit.
All the rest is just bull****. Until there will be a major accident, or he will have repaid his debts there will be no improvement and the people who will raise concerns will be very simply punished.
Dubai social and cultural level is at the Middle Age.
It is governed by a guy dressed peculiarly that is just interested in money.
Unfortunately he thought the world was full of idiot ready to buy a property in his Middle Age reign but that was not the case. The reign is crumbling.
EK is not interested in safety is interested in money to give him to repay the humungous debt he managed to make building some of the most absurd constructions in the world.
EK to make this money is using a Middle Age style with a Gestapo touch i.e.
enslaving employers and taking them to the limit.
All the rest is just bull****. Until there will be a major accident, or he will have repaid his debts there will be no improvement and the people who will raise concerns will be very simply punished.
Last edited by sheikmyarse; 10th Oct 2010 at 16:38.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: pit
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The advantage of forums such as these will always allow statements to be made with very little opportunity for validation.
I actually find it disappointing when statements such as this are made. It does nothing whatsoever to enhance safety in our operation, in fact, quite the opposite. It undoes the hard work that many people put in to encourage the reporting of genuine safety issues. It also creates a fear culture, often based on rumour rather than fact.
Even if your claim is true, there is always a lot more to a story than first meets the eye.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Varies!
Posts: 727
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All i'm saying is when people read stuff on here, they may believe it to be true. It then does the rounds at work and because people have heard it from several different sources, it must be true?!! So, now what's the chance of a normal line guy speaking up or sticking in a safety report? Nil to zero would be my guess. Rumours are one thing, feeding the fear frenzy with unsubstantiated claims is another. As I havn't heard your story, perhaps you could share the knowledge with us. Or did you yourself hear it third hand?
Whilst I agree that more can and should be done from the Companies perspective, it's not an excuse for us to wash our hands of the problem. If we are aware of the culture restrictions preventing a 'just and non punitive' safety culture here in the ME, then we need to take a more active role in looking after each other.
Whilst I agree that more can and should be done from the Companies perspective, it's not an excuse for us to wash our hands of the problem. If we are aware of the culture restrictions preventing a 'just and non punitive' safety culture here in the ME, then we need to take a more active role in looking after each other.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: pit
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Point taken and I think we're on the same side. The thread is about EK safety culture. The mere fact that we are exchanging these argument points out that there is a real problem to that.
I would love to substantiate a little deeper what I reported, but you know as well as myself, that this would lead to repercussions.
ergo QED
I would love to substantiate a little deeper what I reported, but you know as well as myself, that this would lead to repercussions.
ergo QED
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Europe
Age: 51
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks to all contributing to the thread I started.
I think reading between the lines, I can conclude that as long as you use common sense, stick to SOP's, don't do anything that could cause negative publicity, don't blatantly jeopardize safety (gross neglect) and don't upset anyone, then with a little bit of luck most guys will stay around. Sounds pretty much like most commercial airlines. Having said that, the fatigue issues related to higher productivity and factoring of hours does sound very worrying. I wonder how many times a year you can call in fatigued with EK before you are called into the office? Btw, in my current airline they take into account the number of sick days for your command assessment! How safe is that? Fatigue days show up in RED on your roster (hint, hint for management).
I think reading between the lines, I can conclude that as long as you use common sense, stick to SOP's, don't do anything that could cause negative publicity, don't blatantly jeopardize safety (gross neglect) and don't upset anyone, then with a little bit of luck most guys will stay around. Sounds pretty much like most commercial airlines. Having said that, the fatigue issues related to higher productivity and factoring of hours does sound very worrying. I wonder how many times a year you can call in fatigued with EK before you are called into the office? Btw, in my current airline they take into account the number of sick days for your command assessment! How safe is that? Fatigue days show up in RED on your roster (hint, hint for management).
nuff said but simply not true.
The sad part is (and I certainly blame EK for this) is that your friend thinks that way.
The truth is a Go-Around above 1000' is not even reportable. Below 1000' but above 500, EK requires an ASR but no action would be taken.
Sure, push it below 500' and questions would be asked, but that's the case in most airlines.
There are regular ASRs for approaches that became unstable, and no interview or follow up if the correct procedures were followed.
The sad part is (and I certainly blame EK for this) is that your friend thinks that way.
The truth is a Go-Around above 1000' is not even reportable. Below 1000' but above 500, EK requires an ASR but no action would be taken.
Sure, push it below 500' and questions would be asked, but that's the case in most airlines.
There are regular ASRs for approaches that became unstable, and no interview or follow up if the correct procedures were followed.
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: netherlands
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Below 1000' but above 500, EK requires an ASR but no action would be taken.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Umm Ramool Flying Club: Proud Member
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Studi,
I belive many of us here think (or thought) like you. The reality is that our safety culture is more of a fear culture. EK Flight Ops would not want it any other way and it is why we get ASR's like "Almost unstable approach"... ALMOST UNSTABLE? WTF! Is that worthy of a Safety report at your airline?
Example:
I did a go around from 300ft the other night in DXB because some turbo prop took his sweet ole time exiting the runway. Before passing through 1000ft I found myself thinking "I hope I did that exactly right, I have a kid on the way." That is the last thing I should be thinking about shortly after pressing TOGA. Did I think like that before joining EK? Never. It was never an issue. Before I would just fly the manuver (manouvre
) and focus on the next approach.
We do have a reporting culture here, but a reporting culture does not always lead to a safe airline when fear is the motivator for filing.
I'm sure there are going to be people who do not agree, but trust me, this palpable fear is alive and well.
FP
I belive many of us here think (or thought) like you. The reality is that our safety culture is more of a fear culture. EK Flight Ops would not want it any other way and it is why we get ASR's like "Almost unstable approach"... ALMOST UNSTABLE? WTF! Is that worthy of a Safety report at your airline?
Example:
I did a go around from 300ft the other night in DXB because some turbo prop took his sweet ole time exiting the runway. Before passing through 1000ft I found myself thinking "I hope I did that exactly right, I have a kid on the way." That is the last thing I should be thinking about shortly after pressing TOGA. Did I think like that before joining EK? Never. It was never an issue. Before I would just fly the manuver (manouvre
) and focus on the next approach.We do have a reporting culture here, but a reporting culture does not always lead to a safe airline when fear is the motivator for filing.
I'm sure there are going to be people who do not agree, but trust me, this palpable fear is alive and well.
FP
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: HKT
Age: 64
Posts: 225
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fear Factor
Fuse, that pretty much sums up the situation at EK.
Lots of pilots I know flying with the fear of making an honest mistake.
That is the last thing that should be on your mind operating an aircraft!
It might be just that split second you need to make a crucial decision...but you waste it by thinking about what the company would do to you afterwards
That leads to a hesitant, insecure decision making that is ultimately unsafe!
Lots of pilots I know flying with the fear of making an honest mistake.
That is the last thing that should be on your mind operating an aircraft!
It might be just that split second you need to make a crucial decision...but you waste it by thinking about what the company would do to you afterwards
That leads to a hesitant, insecure decision making that is ultimately unsafe!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Post-Pit and Lovin' It.
Posts: 863
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ox·y·mo·ron
"EK safety culture" belongs on the same list as:
-Exact estimate
-Clearly misunderstood
-Working vacation
-Business ethics
-Alone together
-Genuine imitation
-Microsoft Works
"EK safety culture" belongs on the same list as:
-Exact estimate
-Clearly misunderstood
-Working vacation
-Business ethics
-Alone together
-Genuine imitation
-Microsoft Works
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Dubai - sand land.
Age: 55
Posts: 2,831
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You can add that little chestnut;
Guest worker...
Back to the Go-Around comment a couple of posts back - it was found in my last airline by an audit that if the go-around procedure was briefed as part of the arrival briefing it was invariably flown perfectly. A couple of wayward incidents in which one of my colleagues bust the go-around altitude by 1500' showed that the lack of a brief for this manouevre caused the hash, primarily through incorrect mode management...
I think the go-around brief is one of the most important parts of the briefing but gets lost in all the CTWOF guff!!!
And indeed, the MAN guys were badly and unfairly treated. But WHY put in the arrival runway before you even take-off on what could be a very long sector? That creates a mind-set - far better to put the runway in the FMS when you receive the first arrival ATIS shortly before descent. All the nonsense about fuel planning is ridiculous as it'll only make a couple of hundred kilos difference by the end of a flight where (at least on the Airbus) you've made a few hundred kilos of fuel anyway...
Guest worker...
Back to the Go-Around comment a couple of posts back - it was found in my last airline by an audit that if the go-around procedure was briefed as part of the arrival briefing it was invariably flown perfectly. A couple of wayward incidents in which one of my colleagues bust the go-around altitude by 1500' showed that the lack of a brief for this manouevre caused the hash, primarily through incorrect mode management...
I think the go-around brief is one of the most important parts of the briefing but gets lost in all the CTWOF guff!!!
And indeed, the MAN guys were badly and unfairly treated. But WHY put in the arrival runway before you even take-off on what could be a very long sector? That creates a mind-set - far better to put the runway in the FMS when you receive the first arrival ATIS shortly before descent. All the nonsense about fuel planning is ridiculous as it'll only make a couple of hundred kilos difference by the end of a flight where (at least on the Airbus) you've made a few hundred kilos of fuel anyway...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 327
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The situation in EK is exactly as Fuse puts it.
ASR reporting in EK is one of the biggest jokes out there. I stopped reading ASR reports some time ago. The learning experience is close to zero. I'm really not that interested to read that someone put the final flaps at 1450 iso 1500. Pure @rs covering. Not to mention the few critical ASR's, which really matter, which went misteriously missing... we all know a few don't we??!
For people not working here, it is very simple: read a few documents about culture and mentality in the Arab world and you will start to understand more...
Undoubtably there is a BIG fear factor in our cockpits and if past CRM and accident investigations have learned us anything it is: fear is your worst enemy. Do they care in EK: No.
ASR reporting in EK is one of the biggest jokes out there. I stopped reading ASR reports some time ago. The learning experience is close to zero. I'm really not that interested to read that someone put the final flaps at 1450 iso 1500. Pure @rs covering. Not to mention the few critical ASR's, which really matter, which went misteriously missing... we all know a few don't we??!
For people not working here, it is very simple: read a few documents about culture and mentality in the Arab world and you will start to understand more...
Undoubtably there is a BIG fear factor in our cockpits and if past CRM and accident investigations have learned us anything it is: fear is your worst enemy. Do they care in EK: No.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Airplane
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For those wondering if there is, or is not a fear culture at EK, just consider the fact that ASR reporting is mandatory. If it were not mandatory and there was no big brother recording every control movement how many ASRs do you think the safety department would get. The reason they would not get any is that pilots fear for there jobs, and would not risk it for a voluntary reporting system even though it is in the interest of safety. If there was no foqa installed on the airplanes there would be a huge drop in ASRs.
It is fear pure and simple. I see the same sort of control and intimidation every time i go for a drive. Many of the work trucks and vans have a little sticker on the rear bumper which says, "hows my driving. call xxxxxxxx to complain." it puts fear into the driver and forces him to drive safer. The thing is it probably works for the truck driver the same as it works for us. It is forced on him.
7
It is fear pure and simple. I see the same sort of control and intimidation every time i go for a drive. Many of the work trucks and vans have a little sticker on the rear bumper which says, "hows my driving. call xxxxxxxx to complain." it puts fear into the driver and forces him to drive safer. The thing is it probably works for the truck driver the same as it works for us. It is forced on him.
7