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Is EK aviation's BP?

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Is EK aviation's BP?

Old 13th Jul 2010, 09:06
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Is EK aviation's BP?

warning that BP was taking too many risks and cutting corners in pursuit of growth and profits, according to analysts, competitors and former employees. Despite a catalog of crises and near misses in recent years, BP has been chronically unable or unwilling to learn from its mistakes, an examination of its record shows.
During my interview process with Emirates I was quite shocked at the cavalier attitude towards safety, FTLs and many other aspects that are integral to aviation. It was one of the reasons I did not accept a position with them.

Since then there has been the near-catastrophe in Melbourne and who knows how many other incidents.

This doesn't seem to have stopped the company from being very profitable and growing exponentionally. Wonder if the downside will manifest itself any time soon?

The full article is here.
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Old 13th Jul 2010, 10:27
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Hard facts please Capt Roo.
What exactly is their attitude towards safety? What exactly did they say to you for you to come up with this statement?
What
"many other aspects that are integral to aviation"
are you referring to?
I'm not having a go, just want to know. Thats a pretty serious inditement of EK and their standards. As someone who is considering applying I'm keen to learn what you were told.
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Old 13th Jul 2010, 10:43
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Fantastic! Now even those Aussies NOT working for EK are having a go at the company!
I can't wait to hear what they told you!
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Old 13th Jul 2010, 10:45
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A 380, perhaps you misunderstood my post.

I stated ‘did not accept a position with Emirates’. This means that I was offered a job, but declined (refused) that job.

“not cutting it” implies I was not offered the job – which is an incorrect, demeaning and slanderous interpretation.

I refused a Captain’s job on the 330, in part, because

1) The fundamental dishonesty of the recruiting team – they openly stated that seniority has no meaning in Emirates and implied that I could be an Instructor a few months after being checked out.
2) The rosters were tiring and acquaintances mentioned that a new policy not counting bunk-time to FTL limits was going to happen soon.
3) Sadly all the people in the recruitment process were expats who seemed to be quite willing to sell themselves and their principles in order to secure a short-term advantage. That is not conducive to a satisfactory long-term career.

I have not regretted my decision. Guys who were on the same interview with me are still in touch and their stories are not pretty.

Judging by your other postings, you seem to be a very argumentative and confrontational individual. I am not interested in a pissing contest with you, or any other EK-apologists.

The post was about excessive risk taking corporations and the possible consequences of that strategy. Please don’t make it personal, I will not be responding to you any further.


Cloud bunny - Buyer Beware. EK was not for me because i thought that they played fast and loose with the fundamentals of this industry - a true commitment to training and safety.


I could be wrong, then again I could be right.
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Old 13th Jul 2010, 12:06
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****, recruiting screwed up again.
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Old 13th Jul 2010, 12:23
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Spot On.

Dear Capt Roo,
You are 100% correct with your post.
That is how EK is run.(Now).
Sadly it has changed from a company with some of the highest standards to the one I currently work for now.
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Old 13th Jul 2010, 13:06
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Mr Roo, Your post is an interesting one!

How long ago did you attend the selection process (roughly)?

I didn't realise things like FTL's or the like were discussed in any great detail during the process? And exactly what safety critical topics were presented to you during the week?

Just interested.....
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Old 13th Jul 2010, 13:12
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Does it matter if Capt Roo got offered the job or not ?

What he is saying is 100% accurate. Fast and loose with FTL's is only a tiny part of the ignorance showed to flight safety.

Lip service is paid to flight safety, CRM, training and standards.

The Expat recruitment "team" prostitute themselves for a bit of extra money and a few crumbs of roster every month.

Saw a bunch of cannon fodder, sorry, recruits at the clinic the other day , overheard the bull**** they were being told by the wobbly headed clerk. All is great, free clinic ,blah, blah.

Was tempted to tell them I had to wait 3 weeks to see the Doc of my choice, and forget a family dental visit.
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Old 13th Jul 2010, 13:58
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The Expat recruitment "team" prostitute themselves for a bit of extra money and a few crumbs of roster every month.
Complete garbage. The recruitmemt guys are standard, core grade EK7/8/9 staff. There is no head hunter bonus.
I am a great fan of naming a cow a cow and not a great, furry, dairy machine - but staying with the truth gives the required and necessary naming and shaming more substance.
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Old 13th Jul 2010, 14:23
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Sorry for that,

I thought it was 400Dhs a day for recruitment work and 1 guaranteed trip per month.
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Old 13th Jul 2010, 14:31
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Roo is right.
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Old 14th Jul 2010, 11:23
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Not having dig Mr Roo but when was this?

Are we interviewing DECs again as I have a whole bunch of mates who would like to know?
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Old 14th Jul 2010, 12:04
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I didn't realise things like FTL's or the like were discussed in any great detail during the process? And exactly what safety critical topics were presented to you during the week?
Oblaspoop, like you, I doubt they offer these topics as discussion points at the interview.

So MAYBE, unlike so many of the recent joiners who are now lamenting and complaining, Roo armed himself with knowledge BEFORE his interview and asked a few pertinent questions to the recruiters.

Maybe Roo is smarter than the average recruit is these days.

Would that not be the smart way to do it? It certainly would be unusual judging by the comments by so many of our recent joiners who knew nothing about the place or the arseholes they'll be working for when they signed up.
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Old 14th Jul 2010, 12:28
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I'm sorry guys but LR 3 is right... lets take it down a peg or two.

I'm interested to read anything and everything about EK as they are one company who I am considering applying too in the future. I have very close friends - many of whom I trained with many years ago and who are with EK currently. All of them I trust and all of whom say the same things. The following info I was told yesterday by one of them:

FTL - EK have said that they plan to introduce a revision to FTL which works along the lines that time in the bunk does not count - only stick time does.
Also the main gent in charge has recently stated that no pilot should have more than 3 days off in a row (apparently crew control are having fun with this new introduction) which seems to be causing some headaches!
Safety - Following the Melbourne incident apparently the senior management gave the pilots a good slap around - however the opinions aired on this thread are in line with the ones I have heard. EK are naturally very vocal about safety however their daily actions, SOP's, checking and procedures do not meet the high standard they preach.
Emirates Clinic - Have only heard good things about it - the guys say that they always get seen as and when needed, both individually and as a family.

The guys have told me that if you play the game, follow the lists, ease the ego and go with the flow (But keep your own personal standards) and not against it life is pretty good. Its not ideal, and its not as good as it was a few years ago.

From what I have read and heard I get the impression that there is a significant level of truth to the statement and comparison of BP & EK. However the only thing I personally hope is that EK do not ever have a comparable incident, as any death is unacceptable for our industry. Change is needed - lets hope it happens.
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Old 14th Jul 2010, 12:35
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Wishy Washy - but provides a reasonable answer!

Interesting topic and I will make an attempt to bring it back on track.

I will make the immediate assumption that the topic is in light of the recent Gulf of Mexico incident concerning BP and the current situation with it and most likely result of it being the worst environmental disaster caused by an oil spill in the history of oil exploration! And that this is to be compared with the chances of EK, through similar disregard to safety may cause the biggest air disaster; that title currently being held by KLM/PAN AM and a small number of Spanish ATC personnel – with KLM as custodian of the award.

Let’s look first at Oil. There are ~880,000 oil wells globally – how many were drilled by BP? I have no idea and cannot for the life of me find out (at least so far!). So we will have to be a little artistic with this… so let’s make use of Pareto and deduce that 80% of those fields were drilled by the companies that produce 20% of global oil. Hence 704,000 wells were drilled by a very small number of companies, probably just 5 (five)! And let’s assume they all play an equal part (20%) – thus BP are likely to have drilled 140,800 wells. With the average productive life of a well being ~7-8 years and one may agree that BP have had 4 (four) catastrophes in their history. Conclusion? 4 disasters in 8.64 billion ‘well hours’. Or one major (catastrophic) incident every 2.15 billion ‘well hours’.

Now let’s look at EK and apply a similar approach.

To answer your question, is EK the next BP – EK would have to be writing off an aircraft off (perhaps by missing the runway and smashing into the terminal – trying to put some proportion/scale in the equation!) once every 2.15 billion flight hours. I believe EK have 141 aircraft – I don’t proclaim to know their utilisation and that will of course differ across fleet types, but let’s take an industry average of 13 hours a day. This gives EK around about 700,000 flight hours per year; thus for EK to branded ‘as bad’ as BP – they would have to have more than one major catastrophe sometime in the next ~3200 years. Chances of that happening – pretty good I imagine – if airplanes and pilots last that long! But just the same for anyone else too.

Thus I would conclude that EK are probably not as safe as BP, but it doesn’t really matter in the grand scheme of things because the industry will change significantly long before the year 5210!
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Old 14th Jul 2010, 12:57
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Gotta agree with you A380. This Roo fella definately seems to have some strange obsession with EK. And sensative....wow, I think so.
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Old 15th Jul 2010, 18:01
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It's very true, this company is not what it used to be. T's & C's have been eroded, some senior management are extremely dangerous and like many others I keep an eye on what else is on offer.

However:
FTL - EK have said that they plan to introduce a revision to FTL which works along the lines that time in the bunk does not count - only stick time does.
Who cares? When I get to 900 hours I get fatigued and the clinic gets a visit.

Also the main gent in charge has recently stated that no pilot should have more than 3 days off in a row (apparently crew control are having fun with this new introduction) which seems to be causing some headaches!
Not true at the moment, I have more than 3 off this month. I seem to recall a relaxation to 5 or 7 that was announced last year or earlier this year by ED.
Aspiring commuter - don't even go there!
Safety - Following the Melbourne incident apparently the senior management gave the pilots a good slap around - however the opinions aired on this thread are in line with the ones I have heard. EK are naturally very vocal about safety however their daily actions, SOP's, checking and procedures do not meet the high standard they preach.
There were some appaling knee-jerk reactions that have been well publicised here. The SOP's work if you use them. You're also meant to be a pilot, if the the SOP doesn't cover the problem - fly the plane. Checking and training has always been reasonable, in my experience, as have the vast majority of TRI's & TRE's.
Emirates Clinic - Have only heard good things about it - the guys say that they always get seen as and when needed, both individually and as a family.
Agree 100%. It's one of the few really good things left alone. If you insist on seeing 1 Dr, you wait, same as in many home countries. If you need someone today, they're there ready to see you.

I'm not an EK apologist, I'm a realist and when the $&!t can is full, I'll leave.
The level varies on a day to day basis.
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Old 16th Jul 2010, 12:36
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As usual this thread has been a waste of time.

Did anyone bother to read the article I linked to?

This has nothing to do with me, when I interviewed with EK, who I work for or where I live. It was not intended as a personal attack on anyone.


It has everything to do with corporate irresponsibility, as epitomised by the conduct of BP.

From what little I know of Emirates, mostly third-hand, there is a disturbing trend here. The current safety record we enjoy came through hard work, a commitment to safety and adherence to the rules. Looks like these principles are being totally ignored in the Persian Gulf and I wonder if the outcome will be similar to what is going in the Gulf of Mexico.

Since it appears that no one wishes to discuss this, I will stop attempting to have a rational discourse and get on with my life as far away from this nonsense as possible. I just hope it doesn’t affect the whole industry, as BP’s conduct has now done.
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Old 16th Jul 2010, 13:58
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Boo Hoo for Rooo!!!!!

He stated the following reasons why he didnt join EK:

1) The fundamental dishonesty of the recruiting team – they openly stated that seniority has no meaning in Emirates and implied that I could be an Instructor a few months after being checked out.
And the potential of being offered an Instructor position was one of the reasons why you didnt take the job? Did you therefore turn the job down on principal, hating the fact that you would be offered a promotion? Or was it because you found it disturbing that EK would be stupid enough to make you an Instructor in the first place?
2) The rosters were tiring and acquaintances mentioned that a new policy not counting bunk-time to FTL limits was going to happen soon.
Bravo Oscar Lima Lima Oscar Xray!!!!
3) Sadly all the people in the recruitment process were expats who seemed to be quite willing to sell themselves and their principles in order to secure a short-term advantage. That is not conducive to a satisfactory long-term career.
Even more Bravo Oscar Lima Lima Oscar Xray!!!
Seems to me that EK got it right when they put your application in the rubbish bin along with all the others who when not hired by a company come on PPRUNE and tell everyone how and why they would never join EK or whatever airline.
Emirates obvious loss!!!!!!!!
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Old 16th Jul 2010, 14:42
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I put it to you Mr Roo that you interviewed around 18 months ago (at just about the only Airline that was doing so at the time) for a DEC position.

Perhaps you passed (I'm not sure, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now), but due to the recruitment freeze and subsequent policy to not accept DEC's any more, I reckon you were later offered a position as F/O.

Clearly being the highly experienced chap you are, you turned this down, and turned your attention to being bitter and twisted towards a company which (IN YOUR OWN WORDS) you know very little about and have only heard about third hand!!

If you were soooo clued up (as someone else suggested), why bother coming for interview in the first place????

My feeling is though that you failed outright, but I guess we will never know.... Unless of course you wish to admit your interview date, go on what have you got to lose? You would never want to work here in a million years right?

You say in one breath that you're not interested in making/accepting personal attacks...... However the blatant slagging off of the guys and girls in recruitment, as well as lying about what was said is both slanderous and pointless, and shows exactly the type of character you truly are.

Looks like we dodged the bullet on this one!!
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