To: Air Arabia pilots. From: UAE ACC
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To: Air Arabia pilots. From: UAE ACC
I have been biting my tongue for a very long time on this issue but last night pushed me over the edge.
Read this very carefully. It isn't rocket science.
When you are given a descent clearance or a speed restriction and the words "when ready" or "pilot's discretion" is not present in the clearance, it means DO IT NOW.
So stop questioning every descent clearance and speed restriction with "you want us to descend now or when ready". If I wanted you to descend when ready I would have bloody well said so.
Same goes for a clearance into the hold. Read it back and comply. Don't answer with a juvenile little whine that you are destined for OMSJ, we know that.
Read this very carefully. It isn't rocket science.
When you are given a descent clearance or a speed restriction and the words "when ready" or "pilot's discretion" is not present in the clearance, it means DO IT NOW.
So stop questioning every descent clearance and speed restriction with "you want us to descend now or when ready". If I wanted you to descend when ready I would have bloody well said so.
Same goes for a clearance into the hold. Read it back and comply. Don't answer with a juvenile little whine that you are destined for OMSJ, we know that.
Last edited by BlueSkye; 4th Jul 2010 at 19:42. Reason: Can't spell for shi..
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Well Bluesky: thy holy gods of the sky should then know that by the time we are transferred to YOUR skies we "air arabia" are usually around FL270; at that altitude when you ask us to slow down to a ridiculous speed AND then want us to take up a heading 90deg off our track to omsj JUST so that an EK a/c which is 20nm behind can fly ahead of us, just makes no sense(even if the EK a/c is a 777,cos at the level both a/c's speed are going to be the same....not rocket science here either!!!!) that's why it puzzles most of us and when we say our destination is shj and NOT dxb, we are being sarcastic here. we all know both airports are side by side but telling the a/c ahead by a long way to slow down and vectored way off its track to accommadate another thats way behind just makes no sense, especially when we know shj has no delays and the moment we change over to dxb app,they'll tell us to speed up again n give us direct to final fix!!!!! Maybe instead of telling us how to read the jepp's, you shld learn to vector a/c's properly and start speaking to one another(btwn uae and dxb app) then will you not get questions like you want us to descend now?? and just to let you know when you vector us off our STAR's there is no requirement to be back to 250kts/13000'...some of u guys insist on this...once again Not rocket science here...couple of times I've been asked to immediately slow down frm 300kts to 220kts AND expedite my descend And given a mouth full for not doing so...dear MR.ATC...this is a jet a/c...it can do one thing at a time...either slow down or expedite descend NOT both at the SAME time...not rocket science again.......Oh yes and abt the hold, read my statement above again abt talking to one another...I've been in that situation...being ask to hold by UAE, when speaking to dxb and shj atc they told us there's no delays for shj AND yet UAE insist on making us hold for no reason(probably just because there's delays in dxb???)...at the end we have to divert for no reason....So please before you vent your frustrations about us, try to understand our position here....stop treating us like second class citizens in the air and we'll stop being sarcastic to you....
PS: ferris you must be atc too...remember all the times when a/c's try calling you guys a couple of times with no reply and finally when we get a reply frm ATC... it's standby I'm busy...well mate their's always two sides to a coin...
PS: ferris you must be atc too...remember all the times when a/c's try calling you guys a couple of times with no reply and finally when we get a reply frm ATC... it's standby I'm busy...well mate their's always two sides to a coin...
Last edited by kit330; 30th Jun 2010 at 13:39.
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@BlueSkye...you really made a F**l of yourself did you not 
Jet aircrafts cannot slow down to 220 kts and then expedite descent! that too from FL270! It really aint any rocket science you know...
ATC and pilots usually help each other out...well CRM aint your forte I guess....
Jet aircrafts cannot slow down to 220 kts and then expedite descent! that too from FL270! It really aint any rocket science you know...
ATC and pilots usually help each other out...well CRM aint your forte I guess....
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UAE and Dubai are in desperate need of better coordination. Especially when the day EK have all their A380s, A350s and 777s, FD have got all their 58 or so 738s, and Air Arabia got all their A320s. That being said, Dubai do a pretty good job with what's thrown at them by UAE ACC.
As for all the Air Arabia drivers, even though SHJ belongs to you, the skies above don't..
As for all the Air Arabia drivers, even though SHJ belongs to you, the skies above don't..
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One reply at a time.
explai9: Please remove your head from your behind because your vision will greatly improve.
Done.
Good.
Now read my post again and please point out to me where I said that aircraft should maintain a high rate of descent with a slow speed. I implore you to show me that part. I'm practically begging. True to form you only scanned the post, hopped on kit330's bandwagon and shot your mouth off on something that was never said.
Rather keep your trap shut and let people think you are stupid than opening it up and removing all doubt. Next time read the damn post first. F**l.
kitt330: I'll respond later. Have to go.
explai9: Please remove your head from your behind because your vision will greatly improve.
Done.
Good.
Now read my post again and please point out to me where I said that aircraft should maintain a high rate of descent with a slow speed. I implore you to show me that part. I'm practically begging. True to form you only scanned the post, hopped on kit330's bandwagon and shot your mouth off on something that was never said.
Rather keep your trap shut and let people think you are stupid than opening it up and removing all doubt. Next time read the damn post first. F**l.
kitt330: I'll respond later. Have to go.
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Question about the 'Zig Zag One' arrival.
When flying a turboprop into DXB, we get vectors left and right and speed restrictions for spacing.
'Turn left 070'
'Turn right 180'
'Slow 180 KTS'
Now I could understand if we have a jet on our tail, but this is almost never the case. That jet is 30+ miles behind us. We spend so much time turning left and right and slowing down we would have been on the ground by the time the jet eventually flies past us. And every time without fail, that jet we spent so much time trying to accomodate is flying so slowly by the time it reaches the coast we end up slowing down to accomodate it. Every time.
Yesterday for example, we slowed to 180 kts over 100NM out to accomodate EK 30 who was yet to be realeased by Tehran. By the time we were handed to DXB approach we caught up with him, had to slow down and had to slow further on final to maintain 5 NM seperation.
As was discussed, better communication between DXB and UAE is required. But rather than asking the TP guys to slow down at 100 NM, why not ask for an early descent. From 100 NM out at FL190 a turboprop can maintain 240 kts all the way down. And the turboprop can maintain that speed for much longer than any jet.
Now a couple of the UAE guys ARE accomodating, so don't think that this is an attack on everyone. But please let your colleagues know that a turboprop in the descent isn't just a shed getting in everyones way. The unnessesary 'Zig Zag One' arrival drives me up the wall!
Cheers
DB
When flying a turboprop into DXB, we get vectors left and right and speed restrictions for spacing.
'Turn left 070'
'Turn right 180'
'Slow 180 KTS'
Now I could understand if we have a jet on our tail, but this is almost never the case. That jet is 30+ miles behind us. We spend so much time turning left and right and slowing down we would have been on the ground by the time the jet eventually flies past us. And every time without fail, that jet we spent so much time trying to accomodate is flying so slowly by the time it reaches the coast we end up slowing down to accomodate it. Every time.
Yesterday for example, we slowed to 180 kts over 100NM out to accomodate EK 30 who was yet to be realeased by Tehran. By the time we were handed to DXB approach we caught up with him, had to slow down and had to slow further on final to maintain 5 NM seperation.
As was discussed, better communication between DXB and UAE is required. But rather than asking the TP guys to slow down at 100 NM, why not ask for an early descent. From 100 NM out at FL190 a turboprop can maintain 240 kts all the way down. And the turboprop can maintain that speed for much longer than any jet.
Now a couple of the UAE guys ARE accomodating, so don't think that this is an attack on everyone. But please let your colleagues know that a turboprop in the descent isn't just a shed getting in everyones way. The unnessesary 'Zig Zag One' arrival drives me up the wall!
Cheers
DB
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Although I don't share the blunt views of BS, what all pilots flying into DXB must understand is that DESDI or BUBIN are the only inbound points for both Sharjah and Dubai (add to that Jebel Ali now). We at ACC are given a flow rate by APP (10,15,20nm's etc.) to which we must comply and sequence traffic accordingly.
It DOESN"T MATTER to which airport you are flying, DESDI or BUBIN is the "common rwy" on which you all must "land".
Sometimes, when workload permits, we may coordinate parallel tracks inbound, but this is the exception, which has now become expected.
'69
It DOESN"T MATTER to which airport you are flying, DESDI or BUBIN is the "common rwy" on which you all must "land".
Sometimes, when workload permits, we may coordinate parallel tracks inbound, but this is the exception, which has now become expected.
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777-200: 1st of all l never said the sky abv belongs to anyone, infact that's one of points l was trying to make...
Desert b: l agree wt you a million %..... atc shld understand it's not the size of the a/c( unless for wake) that counts below FL200... all a/c's are going to be abt the same speed at this time...infact the smaller one's(tprop) are gonna be able to keep max speed till abt 2-4nm frm touchdown...
Finally, with the airspace dubai has to control n de number of a/c's, l have to say dxb app does a brilliant job but l surely can't say the same for uae acc....especially for arriving a/c's frm mct fir....
Desert b: l agree wt you a million %..... atc shld understand it's not the size of the a/c( unless for wake) that counts below FL200... all a/c's are going to be abt the same speed at this time...infact the smaller one's(tprop) are gonna be able to keep max speed till abt 2-4nm frm touchdown...
Finally, with the airspace dubai has to control n de number of a/c's, l have to say dxb app does a brilliant job but l surely can't say the same for uae acc....especially for arriving a/c's frm mct fir....
Last edited by kit330; 30th Jun 2010 at 11:28.
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Oi Kit - learn to type, spell and use grammar! You appear to have the literacy capability of a baboon.. I really can't understand the garbage you have just posted
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Ignorance is a wonderful thing, chaps. Every night shift, I have to watch scores of aircraft just from the MCT FIR head towards the northern and (increasingly) the southern UAE airfields at the same time to satisfy the hubbing strategy of the various airlines. That's just from our side of the UAE. And you know what, I feel sorry. I feel sorry for us because we have no effective flow control measurements in place, I feel sorry for UAE because of the restrictions that are placed on them because of the sheer weight of numbers heading their way with no real flow control in place and I feel sorry for all the pilots who get dizzy spinning around wasting precious fuel because of the silly ambitions of several huge airlines who don't self police by spreading out their movements. I know, scheduling is complicated but there are huge orders for more planes in this neck of the woods and we can't keep up. Please understand that we don't just put restrictions on you because we can. Of course, there are varying standards in the centre; we're all not the same. Even the best make errors of judgement or are simply doing what looks easiest to them in sometimes desperate circumstances. Please bear with us; we are getting overwhelmed with traffic.
And every ATCO is trained not to "expedite descent/slow down". If you get that instruction, it's because, in the heat of battle, the controller has usually forgotten and will be kicking himself the moment those words come out of his mouth.
We're in this together, lads and lasses. Let's work together and try to understand each others difficulties. Safe flying.
And every ATCO is trained not to "expedite descent/slow down". If you get that instruction, it's because, in the heat of battle, the controller has usually forgotten and will be kicking himself the moment those words come out of his mouth.
We're in this together, lads and lasses. Let's work together and try to understand each others difficulties. Safe flying.
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White Knight: Not everyone speaks de queen's english...and I dont think I was sitting for an english exam here...l think my comments were written well enough to be understood by anyone with some common sense....maybe you lack some..agreed it may not be grammatically correct n wt lots of spelling errors but l think with very little grey matter up there, one would be able to understand what l'd written.....
ATCO69/62: both your comments are right and l accept them. the point l was trying to make to bluesky was...not only you guys have your plates full. before he goes off rantting abt small stuff, he shld look into de mirror 1st....not all of us sit around drinking coffee,reading newspapers n chatting up de ladies...we get as frustrated with what is to us...ridiculous instructions by ATC, just as he is frustrated with our constant whinning... I think I've been pretty civil here...in not commenting abt ATC's down fall (cos I understand your restrictions too)(I do read the ATC forums too) but I can't keep quiet when he goes off like that without trying to consider our situation....why shld I descend earlier than I have to; knowing I'm going to be vectored further away frm where Im going anyhow.... I see no harm in anyone getting further clarification on any instruction given by anyone.....
ATCO69/62: both your comments are right and l accept them. the point l was trying to make to bluesky was...not only you guys have your plates full. before he goes off rantting abt small stuff, he shld look into de mirror 1st....not all of us sit around drinking coffee,reading newspapers n chatting up de ladies...we get as frustrated with what is to us...ridiculous instructions by ATC, just as he is frustrated with our constant whinning... I think I've been pretty civil here...in not commenting abt ATC's down fall (cos I understand your restrictions too)(I do read the ATC forums too) but I can't keep quiet when he goes off like that without trying to consider our situation....why shld I descend earlier than I have to; knowing I'm going to be vectored further away frm where Im going anyhow.... I see no harm in anyone getting further clarification on any instruction given by anyone.....
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There will be no spreading out
Guys,
The scheduling guys are not stupid. They are just doing their job very efficiently. If your business model is from anywhwere to everywhere with 1stop: DXB - there are just two sweet spots in a 24 hour period when the East and West traffic flows marry up - considering time zones and airport curfews. So better plan for the 200 odd airplanes on order to join the fray at exactly the same times.
The scheduling guys are not stupid. They are just doing their job very efficiently. If your business model is from anywhwere to everywhere with 1stop: DXB - there are just two sweet spots in a 24 hour period when the East and West traffic flows marry up - considering time zones and airport curfews. So better plan for the 200 odd airplanes on order to join the fray at exactly the same times.
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kit330,
I have some common sense and I too cannot understand the drivel you post. I know English isn't your first language but, for heaven's sake, make an effort.
Why post on an english speaking forum if you are going to write in incoherent riddles?
Your point, if there is one, is lost amongst all the vowel-less nonsense.
I know that you'll disagree with me; even your response to the last poster questioning your english was gibberish.
I have some common sense and I too cannot understand the drivel you post. I know English isn't your first language but, for heaven's sake, make an effort.
Why post on an english speaking forum if you are going to write in incoherent riddles?
Your point, if there is one, is lost amongst all the vowel-less nonsense.
I know that you'll disagree with me; even your response to the last poster questioning your english was gibberish.
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"And you know what, I feel sorry. I feel sorry for us because we have no effective flow control measurements in place"... ATCO1962
If there is is a possible solution to this problem as identified by our colleagues in ATC... is there anything being done about it and how effective would it be?
I find it a bit demotivating when I make an effort to reduce fuel and time en route with optimum level planning, direct tracking etc... only to lose it all when I get on the home stretch, due to the inherent inefficiencies of the current system.
Having said that, I have on occasion had some magnificent vectors as well that really helped, but to be honest the opposite is unfortunately more the norm.
If there is is a possible solution to this problem as identified by our colleagues in ATC... is there anything being done about it and how effective would it be?
I find it a bit demotivating when I make an effort to reduce fuel and time en route with optimum level planning, direct tracking etc... only to lose it all when I get on the home stretch, due to the inherent inefficiencies of the current system.
Having said that, I have on occasion had some magnificent vectors as well that really helped, but to be honest the opposite is unfortunately more the norm.
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When you are given a descent clearance or a speed restriction and the words "when ready" or "pilot's discretion"
So much bad RT in this part of the world and I blame the Americans and all the weak-minded who want to sound like them:
"Okay, understand cleared blah blah...."
"Checkin in......"
"0534 comin down..."
"You have a good day now...."
Etc.
While you're on the soapbox, BS, please address those ****wits who commit this crime:
"Air Arabia 123 descend to FL150."
*silence*
"Air Arabia 123 descend to FL150."
*silence*
"Air Arabia 123, UAE, do you copy???"
"Go ahead, Air Arabia 123."
GOD that ****s me to listen to. And why do they put the callsign at the end when it's not a readback??? The indians do it all the time too.
I feel better now.......
PS: As for vectors, I always carry extra fuel and don't care a bit about what happens on an average night.
PS:
there are just two sweet spots in a 24 hour period when the East and West traffic flows marry up - considering time zones and airport curfews.
