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Etihad incident in JFK 17 June

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Etihad incident in JFK 17 June

Old 21st Jun 2010, 17:59
  #21 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Among camels and dunes
Posts: 425
My point is that if (lack of) basic flying skills is found to be a contributing factor of this incident then it should be a good opportunity for the training dpt to tackle this automation culture.
This is not about automation and flight directors when you land on edge lighting. This is the ability to fly a big jet, which for the past 4 years we fly to JFK, we have not had anyone land on the edge lighting. As for your experience, A320/A330, your time will come to fly a longer jet on a longer route, and automation is helpful at the end of a ULR flight. Other things help even more like PAPI/VASI/ILS etc...

Not every ILS is capable of an autoland. If I remember correctly, JFK22R has a runway course of 225 and localizer of 222 degrees compared to 22L which has 225 runway and LOC 225. Autolanding on an off set course will shorten your career quickly. It is about understanding automation and handling a big jet. The runways seem narrower, the bigger the jet and holding center-line is of utmost importance. Removing the flight director and autothrust ain't going to help in this case.
If you think that removing the automation will improve your sense of direction of center-line, then you are mistaken. If anything, autothrust helped them get that far, but as for the direction of flight, that was up to the flying pilot. According to the AIMS, this was an A340-500 and I would suspect things could be worse had it been a A340-600.

Last edited by Jetjock330; 21st Jun 2010 at 19:42.
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Old 21st Jun 2010, 19:25
  #22 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Jetjock, I am sure you're a sensible person and that you got my point. I took this incident opportunity to open on another related issue as some posters talked about basic flying skills.
As regards your last post, your assumptions are yours.
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Old 21st Jun 2010, 20:50
  #23 (permalink)  
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Maybe more ammunition to feed to get JFK ATC to sort their act out....
What's wrong with JFK ATC? The runway configuration at all three main international airports has to be coordinated. When you change runways at JFK, you have to change at LGA and at EWR. Having one runway closed for 4 months doesn't help either. The airlines were asked to reduce and re-time their flight during the closure, and chose not to comply. So you can't blame the JFK ATC for pushing tin any way they can with the resources they're given.

EY101 at 27:00min
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Old 22nd Jun 2010, 03:43
  #24 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2005
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Nice guy never gets the prom queen. And nice pilot does NOT mean good pilot. We all make mistakes but very few of US will admit to it. There are always contributing factors to an incidence. Ciao breakfast at M&B.
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Old 22nd Jun 2010, 06:50
  #25 (permalink)  
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The Qatar flight was normal, albeit with a crosswind. No abnormal "sideways movements" reported.
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Old 22nd Jun 2010, 07:15
  #26 (permalink)  
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Contributing Factor

When you are not allowed to do autolands at home base because of alleged interference between the localizers 31R/13L you end up maybe doing them away from home in less than ideal conditions. Yes, the Capt has to make his decision as to where and when to do his autolands.
There is NO problem with the localizers in AUH interfering with each other.......but, that's another potential disaster waiting to happen.
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Old 22nd Jun 2010, 08:34
  #27 (permalink)  
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A discussion on the same topic on the main R&N page - with strong opinions.
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Old 22nd Jun 2010, 17:43
  #28 (permalink)  
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Is the EY AUH-JFK double crewed?
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Old 22nd Jun 2010, 17:48
  #29 (permalink)  
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Puppet Master,

In his case, he got better than the prom queen and he IS a darn good pilot

Personally,I would listen to him.

Sir O

( But we are entitled to our own opinions)
Old 22nd Jun 2010, 18:25
  #30 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Between Vedex and Murag!
Posts: 291
Originally Posted by sandblasted
... but it was probably needed due 30 days requirement after their OPC.
Needed?! What do you think will happen if you don't manage to do an autoland after your OPC? Nothing. (unless you're doing LFUS).
So no need to put yourself in troubles because you think that autoland is a requirement, it's not: if following your OPC you only end up in busy/congested airports where signal integrity is not assured, forget about your autoland!

That practice autoland after OPC was requested to provide data for the autoland monitoring program, nothing more. By the way, in the OM-D, it's only a recommendation.

Mr Angry,
AUH-JFK is a double crew ULR flight.

I think the new CTL tower is interfering with the LLZ radiation...not the other RWY.

Last edited by shortfuel; 4th Sep 2010 at 19:05.
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Old 22nd Jun 2010, 18:29
  #31 (permalink)  
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Mr Angry
Yes it is 'double crewed, the crew doing the landing generally rests for about 6 hours prior to landing and returns to the 'deck' one hour before landing.

Puppet Master
............The PIC involved in the incident is a very good pilot in all respects
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Old 22nd Jun 2010, 22:17
  #32 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Canada
Age: 52
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In the Ey ops specs the max crosswind for autoland into the US is 15 knots. That's more limiting. I have the crosswind compent at 19. I hope it was not an autoland, or someone is going to be in trouble.

It's a good training question for our flights to ORD and JFK.

Be careful boys and girls!

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Old 23rd Jun 2010, 18:36
  #33 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: the desert
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Ditto the PIC is a good pilot. Unfortunately the rumour is the team B Captain wrote a nasty report against the PIC after the incident. What a

Last edited by power ke?; 23rd Jun 2010 at 22:13.
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Old 23rd Jun 2010, 20:12
  #34 (permalink)  
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Canada Rocks,
Is that not the LWMO crosswind limit?
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Old 23rd Jun 2010, 22:01
  #35 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Preswick
Posts: 39
Wow, so many attesting to how good a pilot the PIC was. Good on him.

I guess he is an ivory sky god. Had he been a coloured or Asian one, the insinuations and put downs on how lousy his flying skills were would have been deafening.

Last edited by Kalistan; 25th Jun 2010 at 02:45.
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Old 23rd Jun 2010, 22:56
  #36 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2000
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Kalistan, I can't comment on Etihad, but at EK, some of the most highly regarded pilots - by damn near every pilot in the company when it was still small enough for everyone to know each other - were and are anything but white.

The same would one have been said about the Admin bosses. I think I can safely drop a name here - Leroy was about as black as black men get, and highly respected - I'd go so far as to say damn near idolised by the pilots he worked night and day for.
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Old 23rd Jun 2010, 23:04
  #37 (permalink)  
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No more reference to skin color on this thread - there's no place & no call for it.
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