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EK orders 32 more A380's(Merged)

Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

EK orders 32 more A380's(Merged)

Old 9th Jun 2010, 07:53
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Wishy-Washy airlines

Thanks for the news in this regard.

It is nonetheless a time to repeat the question of fair competition in the middle east and in particular gulf region. I would like to see Emirates operating without the financial backing and unlimited political monopoly from Dubai government to perceive the real strength of this airline. It reminds the old Arabic dictum; if you have a trick, then cheat. There are many times examples on this forum how Emirates practice deep and unfair competition and advantage!

Could European airlines or other neighbouring governments such as Bahrain and Oman with high unemployment among nationals and less strong financial muscles to do the same? Absolutely not. Emirates, Eithad and Qatar airways more or less pursues similar business practices.

I think Emirates announcement for orders of 32 A380 and alike previous ones makes a good propaganda for a weak tribal mentality unable to compete fairly. A tribal mentality can never compete fairly because fair fight means lose risk. Emirates (tribe) enjoys self-protection and impunity from anti-trust lawyers and laws organising fair competition. (remember the case of Dubai Int’l Ports in the US; they were not able to win the bid for security issues)

I think Emirates is wishy-washy airlines, foolproof and not an upfront to defend its arguments.
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Old 9th Jun 2010, 08:17
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GMDS

As I understand Abu Dhabi is the senior Emirate and can authorise traffic rights within the UAE. Poaching doesn't seem the right word for that.
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Old 9th Jun 2010, 08:19
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Open your eyes, GMDS

Just look at Europe and see how interwoven their system is
Are you seriously trying to equate the UAE with Europe?
for the exact same reason Abu Dhabi can't let Dubai go down the drain.
What reason is that, exactly? I'd say Abu Dhabi can let Dubai go "down the drain", whatever that means. Dubai having to announce publicly that it couldn't pay it's debts effectivelymeant it was down the drain. The 'rescue funds' from Abu Dhabi merely allowed an orderly restructuring (read; bankruptcy procedure on a "state scale") of debts. What do you think the cousins stood to gain with accepting Dubai paper to the tune of 10 BILLION dollars? Dubai gained TIME, but they OWE AD THAT MONEY. Is that totally lost on you? Subsequently, the order went out to "send all income to the govt". What do you think that is for? If all the money EK makes is heading into the AD coffers, who do you think owns the airline- even if it is in a defacto fashion?
Not even pride would lead to such stupid behavior
Are you kidding me? You don't see any evidence of stupid behavior here? Especially wrt money?

I'm with you, Wiz. The capital requirements make an IPO inevitable.
If your presumption would be true, one company would vanish quite rapidly.
Perhaps the access issue is the only thing having prevented that already?
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Old 9th Jun 2010, 08:51
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LR 3,

Mate, where do I begin with destroying the complete crap you just spouted??

For a start, when (in the last decade) was overtime EVER paid at 71 hours???? You and I both know that it was 78, so why blatantly lie? What are you trying to prove??? Yes I know it has changed for the worse, but for F@ck sake at least try to sound a little credible.......

Utilities paid for... ALL GONE???????? Yet again, you are speaking poo!! Until this week, the company paid 21,800 DHS towards utilities (hardly a drop in the ocean). Check your mail box, they have now said that NO ONE will now be billed for the extra as only 11% of households came in over that limit.

Rotating 5 month roster was still there the last time I looked????? So again something else that's hardly ALL GONE.

You have had to pay 10% towards the kids education for at least the last 7 years. So what's your point?? How much of your income tax back home went towards education???

I'm interested to see your other points, who knows, you might actually get one right.......... But if the majority of your posts are anything to go by, I seriously doubt it!!!

I'll say it again for the hard of understanding, or for those with a IQ of 4: By all means bring up points and gripes that are genuine, and that need bringing to the attention of the wider audience..... FATIGUE for one, but for Allah's sake, don't come out with stuff that simply isn't true, or you will run the risk of making us ALL look like TW@T's..... Fortunately, on this occasion, it's only you that looks like one
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Old 9th Jun 2010, 10:13
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I am overwhelmed by the wisdom on this site.
I'd say Abu Dhabi can let Dubai go "down the drain"
Ask any first term political economics student about this statement's worth.

As I understand Abu Dhabi is the senior Emirate and can authorise traffic rights within the UAE. Poaching doesn't seem the right word for that
It is the UAE GCAA's authority to give traffic rights, not Abu Dhabi's. If AD would dictate as you pretend, then my argument just gains in weight.
In respect to poaching, you obviously don't know the context: EK prepared the field for ORD flights and when they were ready, EY simply started them up on that. That was an insider job and would be sanctioned in any other confederation.

I would like to see Emirates operating without the financial backing and unlimited political monopoly from Dubai government
So let me recapitulate: One says Dubai is bankrupt, the other talks about "financial backing" (remember: we're still on 90 A380s). One says AD dictates all, the other talks about unlimited political monopoly from Dubai.

Time to leave this site
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Old 9th Jun 2010, 10:22
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Cheers mate - thanks for your valuable contribution

4HP
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Old 9th Jun 2010, 10:27
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Plenty of parking spaces in Al Maktoum international
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Old 9th Jun 2010, 11:30
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. I would like to see Emirates operating without the financial backing and unlimited political monopoly from Dubai government to perceive the real strength of this airline.
In what way do you percieve that EK has "Financial backing" from the Dubai Government. EK has been profitable and self funding, returning dividends TO the Dubai Goevernment, since its second year of operation.

Also, what do you mean by "Political Monopoly"? Traffic rights? Every country in the world negotiates traffic rights to be as advantageous to it's own econnomy as possible. Look at the situation with Canada. And in that regard, traffic rights granted to the UAE have to be shared with Etihad, whilst the UAE has an open skies policy.

EKs strenghts are geographic position and relativley cheap labour who do not pay income tax. It doesn't need and doesn't get subsidies from it's owners, rather the opposite is true!
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Old 9th Jun 2010, 13:59
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You have had to pay 10% towards the kids education for at least the last 7 years.
From EK Web
.........................
The eligibility of the following benefits is dependant upon the applicant’s unique personal circumstances:

• Education Support Allowance
Financial support towards the payment of core tuition fees is provided to staff in more senior positions. It is intended as a contribution towards the overall expenses the employee may incur for their children’s education.

.........................
"...s provided to staff in more senior positions."
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Old 9th Jun 2010, 14:30
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"...s provided to staff in more senior positions."
Yes - that includes pilots too (amazingly in this day and age)
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Old 9th Jun 2010, 14:42
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Oblaaspop.

Thank you for correcting LR3's misinformation. I would not have the energy to correct the constant drivvle that he posts.

Add to it his complete lack of prefessionalism on pprune - its no wonder that our profession has been degraded by those of his ilk.

Sad

f.
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Old 9th Jun 2010, 22:30
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Hi!

If EK is to avoid a MASSIVE crew shortage, they will HAVE to improve the T&Cs of the current pilots, to keep them at EK.

Just filling the new pilot seats, in today's current aviation upturn, in conjunction with the massive downturn in the numbers of pilots now being produced in the US, will be difficult. If EK can't keep the pilots they have, look for LOTS of planes to be sitting idle for lack of crews, down the road.

cliff
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Old 9th Jun 2010, 23:13
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Would EK ever look at a 25 year old guy who is now at a US regional with about 3000 hours, which 2000 of them are SIC in the CRJ-200? Is it even worth filing out the application?
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Old 10th Jun 2010, 02:31
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The slight upturn in the market (US) and you think EK is going to have difficulty getting 700 pilots because the US wont be able to provide. Got news for you - there just happens to be some a few countries besides the US that might provide some pilots.

6 years ago EK only had 2 US pilots and just managed fine without.
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Old 10th Jun 2010, 02:55
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Hi!

Is TyphoonPilot here on FI???????????? EK MAY have PIC limits: All the CRJ guys I have heard of being interviewed were PICs. They DO have age limits, but they are NOT published on their hiring website...it is "secret". So they may also have "secret" PIC limits????

cliff
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Old 10th Jun 2010, 03:28
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Would EK ever look at a 25 year old guy who is now at a US regional with about 3000 hours, which 2000 of them are SIC in the CRJ-200? Is it even worth filing out the application?
At the moment, no, the minimums are the minimums and it's 4000hrs, 2000hrs Jest, OR 2500TT on "Modern, multi pilot Airliners" which is basically 737EFIS of bigger.

But watch this space, and, as soon as the hour-o-meter ticks over 4000, you will be considered.
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Old 10th Jun 2010, 03:51
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6 years ago EK only had 2 US pilots and just managed fine without.
Thanks for proving the point. Where do you think the majority of pilots have come from in the past 6 years since Americans now make up the second most populous nationality among the pilots?
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Old 10th Jun 2010, 07:26
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Indeed, Emirates has financial and political backing from Dubai government. I am not the only who say this, Qantas made many statements on Emirates. Please see this link http://edition.cnn.com/2005/BUSINESS/11/03/qantas.emirates/

Also, CEO of Gulf Air made an implicit statement about Emirates, Etihad and Qatar Airways 2 to 3 weeks ago. Gulf CEO was President of the Arab Air Carriers Organisation (AACO) and Chairman of the International Air Transport Association (IATA) board of governors until June 2009. So, he does not talk nonsense.


Please review my previous posts on this site where I listed many examples of unfair competition practices adopted by Emirates. You even stated your good-self that Dubai government negotiates traffic rights to meet its economic needs, i.e., basically not abiding to established formal rules. They are making it cherry-pick. I recall very well 4 to 6 years ago Dubai authorities denied granting landing rights to airlines offering fares lower than Emirates (this was published in local press by Editor of a Bahraini newspaper).


I thank you for the example about traffic rights for Etihad with Canada. But Abdu Dhabi or Etihad is not like Dubai or Emirates, are they? Please read this link
http://www.calgaryherald.com/business/Canada+fights+Emirates+push+flights+Calgary/2665068/story.html

In early 2010, UAE asked Canadian authorities to grant Emirates greater access to Canada in exchange for extending permission for the Canadian Forces to stay at Camp Mirage, a Gulf base that serves as a crucial jump-off point to Afghanistan. What politics has to do with commercial issue here? Is this not lobbying to get way with business? Emirates official declined to give comment on this issue because he knows very well his airline depends on monopoly strategies of Dubai government.

The situation reminds me about gulf government affirmation that their sovereign funds operate on commercial grounds, while the true that the people behind them use diplomatic passports in Europe to move easily and avoid paying taxes!

Neither UAE no any GCC has open sky policy. Monopoly does not create excellence for any company, does it? It makes money because you secure all the required yard sticks but when the game conditions change, we all perceive the difference. An athlete who runs using steroids is not like someone running without it, right?

http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=2663385

Bahrain has granted private sector to run Bahrain Air rather than giving support to its loss-making Gulf Air. Kuwait privatised its national airline Kuwait Airways and allowed private sector to run Jazeera Airways and Wataniya Airways. What did Dubai do? They reverted with fly-dubai subsidiary after emergence of many economy-based companies. This was predicted by MEED many years ago.


I am not saying Emirates has low demand globally, it does, but this huge amount of profit comes from unfair competition, which in fact say that no competition exist! how Emirates is able to make huge profits when more than 90% of airlines make losses! Is this magic? especially Dubai is being hit hard by the financial crisis and made a statement that it is on default by asking delay to pay its debit.


Please do not tell me that a tribal mentality can fight fairly because a tribal person will only fight when he is stronger and knows his competitors are weaker.
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Old 10th Jun 2010, 07:57
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Of course Qantas and Air Canada have nothing to gain from mud slinging.

Subsidy - myths and facts | Public Affairs | About Emirates | Emirates Canada

Here is the other side from EK, as they say there are always 3 sides to every story.
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Old 10th Jun 2010, 07:59
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So basically your entire argument consists of quoting what Emirates less sucessful competitors say about it, whilst they argue with their governments to restrict free trade, and that is an example of EMIRATES employing unfair trading practices?

Emirates may be wholly owned by the Dubai government, but it does not attract a soverign credit rating. What Jackson said was just plane wrong. Have a look at the ratings of other Government ownded companies like Emar. they reflect the commercial reality of those busniesses (which is to say, lousy!!)

EVERY government negotiates traffic rights and other advantages for it's idgigenous businesses. Why do you think Qantas lobbys so hard and so successfully to keep any competitor from competing against it on the Pacific? You quote how the Canadian government is being overtly protectionist towards Canadian Airlines.

The threat to close the Canadian base was, I agree, clumsy and ultimatley couter-productive. But governments everywhere use any amount of leverage and horse trading to bolster there own interests.

Neither UAE no any GCC has open sky policy
Please support that assertion.

. Monopoly does not create excellence for any company, does it?
No, which is why standars at protected airline like Qantas and Canadian are often cited as being sub-standard.

I am not saying Emirates has low demand globally, it does, but this huge amount of profit comes from unfair competition,
I would say that Emirates biggest advantage is the ability to pay its staff in a tax free environment. Is there a reason it should NOT do so?

how Emirates is able to make huge profits when more than 90% of airlines make losses! Is this magic?
By offering a desirable product from a strategic position.

especially Dubai is being hit hard by the financial crisis and made a statement that it is on default by asking delay to pay its debit.
Dubai has debt it cannot repay. EK does not.

Please do not tell me that a tribal mentality can fight fairly because a tribal person will only fight when he is stronger and knows his competitors are weaker.
Today
Unlike business people elswhere in the world who line up to help their less fortunate competitors......
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