EY Unstable App in MNL?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Beach
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
These guys knew they were unstable yet they continued to land for no good reason...what can we learn from that!?
The problem is they chose to ignore the SOPs...What can we learn from that!?
Havent we just had something similar on the 330 in KTM and look what happened to him....
Do we have a sim detail to train negligence & incompetence
The problem is they chose to ignore the SOPs...What can we learn from that!?
Havent we just had something similar on the 330 in KTM and look what happened to him....
Do we have a sim detail to train negligence & incompetence
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: East Anglia
Age: 83
Posts: 437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looking at the history of stuff ups on approach and landing and why these have managed to trap crews at these two mentioned airports is a good heads up on what traps to avoid.
Your flight safety office should be able to provide the details of their and other airlines incidents into MNL and KTM and these were in my experiance well worth a quiet read before operating into them.
Ideally these situations should be presented to you in the simulator and you should be route checked/trained into airfields that throw up incidents however straightforward they appear at first glance.
Your flight safety office should be able to provide the details of their and other airlines incidents into MNL and KTM and these were in my experiance well worth a quiet read before operating into them.
Ideally these situations should be presented to you in the simulator and you should be route checked/trained into airfields that throw up incidents however straightforward they appear at first glance.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: wild blue yonder
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its called human factors and NASA has been working on this since Moby Dick was a minow. The only way to get accurate information is not by termination but formulation. I only hope when the day comes when your in the CPs office after stepping on your wick and that day will come, that you receive positive feedback and not termination.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Sand dune 3
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Human Factors covers a multitude of sins 
What exact information do you need, isnt that all retrieved from the Flight Data Monitoring....thats the reason there in the s##t isnt it?
Sounds to me like they knew what they were doing....give them a medal Eh!
What exact information do you need, isnt that all retrieved from the Flight Data Monitoring....thats the reason there in the s##t isnt it?
Sounds to me like they knew what they were doing....give them a medal Eh!
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Milky way
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
vaschandi
You are correct theoretically it is possible not to have the landing gear warning in the situation you are describing but it is highly unlikely if you are trying to land at an airport not to have at least 1 thrust lever to idle OR (i stress on OR) landing flaps selected bellow 800ft. Any way this technical discussion is not the primary topic of this thread. May be its not a good idea to bore the rest with that any more.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Stratosphere
Posts: 226
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm note for an automatic 'fire the guilty pilots' approach either, however, hey can eaily get in the sim and show that they can do it properly and then throw that discipline out when they go back to the line. If that is discovered, that's when their contunied efforts to endanger the ytravelling public should be curtailed. Unless they've been there before, of course.
Cleared to land, yes, did about 6000hrs on the 777, and have heard the gear warning horn in first class too, when F25 or 30 was selected prior to the gear being down, though others are correct in this case - the EGPWS is give the usual 'TOO LOW" warnings.
No excuse for not going around, regardless of how you got to where you are. (unless you have managed to bacjk yourself into the 'no fuel' coner AND flown it badly)
Cleared to land, yes, did about 6000hrs on the 777, and have heard the gear warning horn in first class too, when F25 or 30 was selected prior to the gear being down, though others are correct in this case - the EGPWS is give the usual 'TOO LOW" warnings.
No excuse for not going around, regardless of how you got to where you are. (unless you have managed to bacjk yourself into the 'no fuel' coner AND flown it badly)
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: AUSTRALIA - CHINA STHN
Age: 59
Posts: 261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
wind up??
Just to wind folks up even more.. you do know that if you were landing on one engine you would only have flaps 20 anyway so what's the big deal on a long runway??.. the jet can do it fine.. okay.. the Company might not like it but the jet is capable of landing just fine.. and stopping too..
ready for incoming.. but in case anyone misses it .. the comment is tongue in cheek..
ready for incoming.. but in case anyone misses it .. the comment is tongue in cheek..
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: UAE
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gents I have to mention that for one of us to choose to ignore multiple SOP's and continue such an approach is clearly a VIOLATION.
It would be interesting to know if the pilots involved actually reported this incident in an ASR or even an OR after landing.
This should also determine the course of action the Company should take towards this incident. If upon landing the incident was reported then I believe that the crew involved should be given some serious CRM and re-training. The Captain's decission making analyzed and evaluated and the F/O's assertiveness seriously questioned.
If however this incident was left un-reported after landing and was only discovered by flight safety by warnings triggered by the aircraft then I must say that the pilots involved should be dismissed.
We are ultimately responsible for many lives every time we go flying, people trust us to carry their parents, their children and their loved ones. SOP's are there to protect all of us and to choose to violate them is a choice that my have tragic concequences.
Fly safe
It would be interesting to know if the pilots involved actually reported this incident in an ASR or even an OR after landing.
This should also determine the course of action the Company should take towards this incident. If upon landing the incident was reported then I believe that the crew involved should be given some serious CRM and re-training. The Captain's decission making analyzed and evaluated and the F/O's assertiveness seriously questioned.
If however this incident was left un-reported after landing and was only discovered by flight safety by warnings triggered by the aircraft then I must say that the pilots involved should be dismissed.
We are ultimately responsible for many lives every time we go flying, people trust us to carry their parents, their children and their loved ones. SOP's are there to protect all of us and to choose to violate them is a choice that my have tragic concequences.
Fly safe
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Beach
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looks like a massive let off for the crew concerned.....CRM and a session of circuits in the sim?
Im worried about putting my family on an aircraft with some of these people...
Im worried about putting my family on an aircraft with some of these people...
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: U.A.E
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You have to see the Etihad route information maunual.
It will tell you the amount of rain you can expect to see in the month that you are arriving and a lot of other UFI "Useless Farkin Info"
The problem with this doc like most others et EY is that they won't pay anyone to create a proper one. The cold weather ops is useless.
Dispatch still don't know what an ETP is for and the emergency decent stuff is preached to us and administered by people who can't fly airplanes.
Inshallah but we are waiting for another Bahrain accident here.
It will tell you the amount of rain you can expect to see in the month that you are arriving and a lot of other UFI "Useless Farkin Info"
The problem with this doc like most others et EY is that they won't pay anyone to create a proper one. The cold weather ops is useless.
Dispatch still don't know what an ETP is for and the emergency decent stuff is preached to us and administered by people who can't fly airplanes.
Inshallah but we are waiting for another Bahrain accident here.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: U.A.E
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No info in the RIM about hazards on the approaches, local procedures etc.
A good RIM should give a pilot all the info he needs in order to conduct a safe approach. All the info that is, that is not in the Jepp's but is learned from the pilot group and held in corps knowledge.
A well produced RIM is an enhancement to flight safety. If the guys just buggered up the approach and didn't follow SOP's that's one thing,consider however our 2 or 3 near CFIT into Peshawar over the last few years. What does the RIM say about this difficult approach or Damascus... Sweet F---- All.
Our RIM provides very basic info, none on who to call on the ground for servicing etc. Imagine diverting into Sonderstrom with no SatCom. You will have no info on this standard alternate other than the Jepp's, you will be using your own phone and credit card. To make all the arrangements,etc.
All of our documents such as the RIM are produced by people on their own time.
A proffessionall organization would see the need to spend the time making a proffessionall document. Most EY pilots are carying a copy of Emirates RIM in their hard drive.
A good RIM should give a pilot all the info he needs in order to conduct a safe approach. All the info that is, that is not in the Jepp's but is learned from the pilot group and held in corps knowledge.
A well produced RIM is an enhancement to flight safety. If the guys just buggered up the approach and didn't follow SOP's that's one thing,consider however our 2 or 3 near CFIT into Peshawar over the last few years. What does the RIM say about this difficult approach or Damascus... Sweet F---- All.
Our RIM provides very basic info, none on who to call on the ground for servicing etc. Imagine diverting into Sonderstrom with no SatCom. You will have no info on this standard alternate other than the Jepp's, you will be using your own phone and credit card. To make all the arrangements,etc.
All of our documents such as the RIM are produced by people on their own time.
A proffessionall organization would see the need to spend the time making a proffessionall document. Most EY pilots are carying a copy of Emirates RIM in their hard drive.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Sand dune 3
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A good RIM does not detail SOPs....this was 100% crew negligence!
Its great that we have a non punative Flight Safety reporting system however where does it stop.....a crew screws up the approach, ignoring SOPs, then lands fully aware of what they have done!
This must make all the cowboys out there feel good!
What happens to the next crew that land off an unstable approach?
Very poorly handled by those in power, the wrong message has come out to the line to those of us that try to follow the SOPs..(even if they do need to be reviewed!).
Is it anything goes!...F##k ups only get a few days off and slapped wrist
Yeeee Haaaa
Its great that we have a non punative Flight Safety reporting system however where does it stop.....a crew screws up the approach, ignoring SOPs, then lands fully aware of what they have done!
This must make all the cowboys out there feel good!
What happens to the next crew that land off an unstable approach?
Very poorly handled by those in power, the wrong message has come out to the line to those of us that try to follow the SOPs..(even if they do need to be reviewed!).
Is it anything goes!...F##k ups only get a few days off and slapped wrist
Yeeee Haaaa
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Posts: 315
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
White Kerchief
I'm being defensive? Review your post and the amount of icons; very defensive and quite churlish. "Maybe you fly like this too" What a kn@b!