Don't get sick at EK
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Don't get sick at EK
Well we all saw this coming....
Max 2 days self-certified sick per month (previously no limit).
No going sick before or after leave or you will be punished!
Ho hum, reading about our conditions being degraded is so boring.
Hopefully the ASR's for fatigue and the docs happy to certify for fatigue will send the message before the smokin' hole does.
Max 2 days self-certified sick per month (previously no limit).
No going sick before or after leave or you will be punished!
Ho hum, reading about our conditions being degraded is so boring.
Hopefully the ASR's for fatigue and the docs happy to certify for fatigue will send the message before the smokin' hole does.
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The wank*rs in management were obviously becoming bored, since it's been at least 2 weeks since they f**ked us up the a**.
Cowards and bullies, that's all they are, oh well just press 2 on the 2nd last day of the month for 2 days SK, then again on the 1st of the next month for another 2 days.
Was Ed the moron in NWA, as I see there is a NWA reunion on the crew portal
Cowards and bullies, that's all they are, oh well just press 2 on the 2nd last day of the month for 2 days SK, then again on the 1st of the next month for another 2 days.
Was Ed the moron in NWA, as I see there is a NWA reunion on the crew portal
Mister Warning
I'm glad you pointed that out. I thought it was a QANTAS reunion.
Honestly don't read anything from a talking horse, let alone one with mad-cows disease.
Thanks
halas
Honestly don't read anything from a talking horse, let alone one with mad-cows disease.
Thanks
halas
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Fatigue is not being sick...
NB: Sick is different from being fatigued.
If you're roster is pushing you East and West, ULR/turnarounds and whatever else these so called managers have us do but have never done themselves, with only 8 days off a month for the privilege of having a job: go 'fatigued' and file an ASR! They can be submitted at any time and make sure they know why.
Forget the BMI, we're on the 'F' plan; Fly, Fatigued and Fueked by the poachers turned game keepers who know better but are spineless the end result of which will be a smoking hole.
If you're roster is pushing you East and West, ULR/turnarounds and whatever else these so called managers have us do but have never done themselves, with only 8 days off a month for the privilege of having a job: go 'fatigued' and file an ASR! They can be submitted at any time and make sure they know why.
Forget the BMI, we're on the 'F' plan; Fly, Fatigued and Fueked by the poachers turned game keepers who know better but are spineless the end result of which will be a smoking hole.
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I choked in my coffee while reading it. What the F***.
Again a big bucket of cr@p from our management.
To all the shafters up there in the big BS castle : you guys are digging yourself a big big hole. You really really think you are dealing with dumb camels are you?
They really think they can get way with anything...
Well... at least my wife will be happy. The time we intend to spend just got shortened by another 5 years. Thanks. makes it o so easy now.
Again a big bucket of cr@p from our management.
To all the shafters up there in the big BS castle : you guys are digging yourself a big big hole. You really really think you are dealing with dumb camels are you?
They really think they can get way with anything...
Well... at least my wife will be happy. The time we intend to spend just got shortened by another 5 years. Thanks. makes it o so easy now.
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The whole thing is hardly surprising from the spineless shower of sh*ts.......
They screw around with our rosters, we have no representation, so what do people do..... they go sick to redress the balance, so what do the kn*bs do..... they screw around with our sickness policy, what's next
They screw around with our rosters, we have no representation, so what do people do..... they go sick to redress the balance, so what do the kn*bs do..... they screw around with our sickness policy, what's next
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Get over yourselves...it's not great, but it's not actually new either..the 48 hours and sick day recovery processes, for a start, are in my 2006 FOM, and the absent from duty thing has always been applied..
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Trimotor,
Better re-read that FOM before your upgrade!
The two days per month rule is new and not to be confused with the previous 48 hrs max self certified.
MW.
Better re-read that FOM before your upgrade!
The two days per month rule is new and not to be confused with the previous 48 hrs max self certified.
MW.
Some what related
Morale a make or break issue for airlines
Steve Creedy | March 13, 2009
Article from: The Australian
GREG Bamber has a simple and often ignored message for airline executives: treat your people well and it will pay dividends.
The director of research at Monash University's Department of Management argues that airlines that engage with their workers provide a better return to investors, as well as higher quality and more reliable services.
He is today releasing a book examining airline employment practices in North America, Asia, Australia and Europe.
Professor Bamber and his co-authors -- Jody Hoffer Gitell, Thomas A.Kochan and Andrew von Nordenflycht -- looked at legacy and low-cost carriers in researching Up In the Air: How Airlines Can Improve Performance by Engaging their Employees.
Teams of people based at universities around the world made case studies about airlines during the research.
"We've ... had a lot of quantitative data. We've been able to draw material from the international civil aviation authority, for example, much of which has been unpublished or not analysed in the past," Professor Bamber said.
The researchers found that where airline staff and customers reported high and rising frustration about the way they were treated this often resulted in cuts to services and staff.
Falling morale led to increased problems, such as flight delays and baggage loss, that undermined a carrier's viability.
Professor Bamber believes too many airline executives and unionists assume that adversarial industrial relations are inevitable.
He advocates instead a "virtuous circle" where more can be achieved with co-operative industrial relations.
"It's an appropriate strategy for airlines to get into and, indeed, other businesses, particularly those involved in serving customers, as many enterprises do," he said.
The Melbourne academic argues that employee relations in legacy airlines often stem from their origins.
He notes that many were founded by pilots who had been demobilised after World War I and run on military principles. He points to Lufthansa and Continental Airlines as examples of legacy carriers that have benefited from good or improving employee relations.
"Continental was very lean and mean and nasty to its employees under a previous regime and we include some detail of its transformation," he says.
"It went into bankruptcy and was relaunched with a new approach that aims to be much more engaging with its staff. It's working with its staff rather than hitting them with a battering ram and it's been much more successful in its new incarnation.
"Similarly, in Europe, Lufthansa has been more successful than, say, British Airways. Lufthansa has sought to work with its people to a greater extent. (It has) ... councils and other forms of employee participation in decision-making to a much greater extent than British Airways, which has been following a more adversarial tradition, which has been typical of the English-speaking countries."
There are also differences in the new breed of low-cost carriers typically started by flamboyant entrepreneurs.
The Monash academic points to the differences between Dublin-based Ryanair, which does not treat its employees particularly well, and US carrier Southwest. He notes that Ryanair's reputation for not treating staff or customers well has not stopped it from eating into the legacy market in Europe.
But Southwest has also prospered.
"And it treats its people very differently," he says. "It's fostered employees engagement and employee commitment and participative decision-making. It has a very partnership-oriented approach in dealing with the unions that represent its people and it's been the most consistently financially successful airline in the US since its foundation in the early 1970s.
"So they are two polar opposites -- Ryanair and Southwest."
Professor Bamber questions the extent to which the Ryanair model will be sustainable in the long run. He says customers have been annoyed and alienated, while staff are largely disgruntled. "And that might come back to bite them."
halas
Steve Creedy | March 13, 2009
Article from: The Australian
GREG Bamber has a simple and often ignored message for airline executives: treat your people well and it will pay dividends.
The director of research at Monash University's Department of Management argues that airlines that engage with their workers provide a better return to investors, as well as higher quality and more reliable services.
He is today releasing a book examining airline employment practices in North America, Asia, Australia and Europe.
Professor Bamber and his co-authors -- Jody Hoffer Gitell, Thomas A.Kochan and Andrew von Nordenflycht -- looked at legacy and low-cost carriers in researching Up In the Air: How Airlines Can Improve Performance by Engaging their Employees.
Teams of people based at universities around the world made case studies about airlines during the research.
"We've ... had a lot of quantitative data. We've been able to draw material from the international civil aviation authority, for example, much of which has been unpublished or not analysed in the past," Professor Bamber said.
The researchers found that where airline staff and customers reported high and rising frustration about the way they were treated this often resulted in cuts to services and staff.
Falling morale led to increased problems, such as flight delays and baggage loss, that undermined a carrier's viability.
Professor Bamber believes too many airline executives and unionists assume that adversarial industrial relations are inevitable.
He advocates instead a "virtuous circle" where more can be achieved with co-operative industrial relations.
"It's an appropriate strategy for airlines to get into and, indeed, other businesses, particularly those involved in serving customers, as many enterprises do," he said.
The Melbourne academic argues that employee relations in legacy airlines often stem from their origins.
He notes that many were founded by pilots who had been demobilised after World War I and run on military principles. He points to Lufthansa and Continental Airlines as examples of legacy carriers that have benefited from good or improving employee relations.
"Continental was very lean and mean and nasty to its employees under a previous regime and we include some detail of its transformation," he says.
"It went into bankruptcy and was relaunched with a new approach that aims to be much more engaging with its staff. It's working with its staff rather than hitting them with a battering ram and it's been much more successful in its new incarnation.
"Similarly, in Europe, Lufthansa has been more successful than, say, British Airways. Lufthansa has sought to work with its people to a greater extent. (It has) ... councils and other forms of employee participation in decision-making to a much greater extent than British Airways, which has been following a more adversarial tradition, which has been typical of the English-speaking countries."
There are also differences in the new breed of low-cost carriers typically started by flamboyant entrepreneurs.
The Monash academic points to the differences between Dublin-based Ryanair, which does not treat its employees particularly well, and US carrier Southwest. He notes that Ryanair's reputation for not treating staff or customers well has not stopped it from eating into the legacy market in Europe.
But Southwest has also prospered.
"And it treats its people very differently," he says. "It's fostered employees engagement and employee commitment and participative decision-making. It has a very partnership-oriented approach in dealing with the unions that represent its people and it's been the most consistently financially successful airline in the US since its foundation in the early 1970s.
"So they are two polar opposites -- Ryanair and Southwest."
Professor Bamber questions the extent to which the Ryanair model will be sustainable in the long run. He says customers have been annoyed and alienated, while staff are largely disgruntled. "And that might come back to bite them."
halas
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Halas: If only... it doesn't have to be the way it is... I know, we all know that we would achieve much, much more with a different approach. But without any direct representation we're unlikely to see any change in the stick and more stick we get now.
To the thread: I don't think the sickness issue is one of previous abuses more than one of crewing being cut to levels where any sicknesses will cancel flights.
To look at it another way; if they work this way and schedule us the way they are then the impact of any sicknesses will have even greater effect... so the net result of increased duty time, less rest and more fatigue related + 'normal' sickness will ground flights.
To the thread: I don't think the sickness issue is one of previous abuses more than one of crewing being cut to levels where any sicknesses will cancel flights.
To look at it another way; if they work this way and schedule us the way they are then the impact of any sicknesses will have even greater effect... so the net result of increased duty time, less rest and more fatigue related + 'normal' sickness will ground flights.
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What is being overlooked here again as usual is safety. You may well get those amongst us that are intimidated, and are really sick. The net result is to operate when actually unfit ( hey a senior F/O up for command wont want to compromise things now would he).
Reminds me of a flight I did when a memeber of the cabin crew told me just after airborne she was feeling a little ill. The net result is she was stood down for the remainder of the flight. She told me that she did not want to be marked absent , in addition she felt that its easier for the doctor to come visit her in the comfort of her hotel room than to go through the painfull process of trying to book an appointment at the clinic / be marked absent/ disciplinary etc.
You can say what you like if you intimidate then people will think around your rule.
Lets see " should I be marked absent / face a disciplinary / have my roster adjusted ad hoc / try to get an appointment at the clinic / go through all the traffic to the said appointment etc etc. " or ' should I get ill on board , now covered by industrial sickness programm , get to the hotel and have a doctor come visit me in my hotel room , heck I can even choose to do this at a really nice destination where I get the best medical care and extend my layover. "
All good and well , but what if the condition is slightly worse than a stomach bug. Lets say its a pending apppendix problem. They choose to fly as they are scared. Half way to Perth ( boom) . sorry for you !!!!
Now management have blood on their hands !!!!
Reminds me of a flight I did when a memeber of the cabin crew told me just after airborne she was feeling a little ill. The net result is she was stood down for the remainder of the flight. She told me that she did not want to be marked absent , in addition she felt that its easier for the doctor to come visit her in the comfort of her hotel room than to go through the painfull process of trying to book an appointment at the clinic / be marked absent/ disciplinary etc.
You can say what you like if you intimidate then people will think around your rule.
Lets see " should I be marked absent / face a disciplinary / have my roster adjusted ad hoc / try to get an appointment at the clinic / go through all the traffic to the said appointment etc etc. " or ' should I get ill on board , now covered by industrial sickness programm , get to the hotel and have a doctor come visit me in my hotel room , heck I can even choose to do this at a really nice destination where I get the best medical care and extend my layover. "
All good and well , but what if the condition is slightly worse than a stomach bug. Lets say its a pending apppendix problem. They choose to fly as they are scared. Half way to Perth ( boom) . sorry for you !!!!
Now management have blood on their hands !!!!
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I was asked to contact Fleet management a few weeks ago as they 'noticed a trend' of my calling sick, and they wondered if 'I was OK'. They 'suggested' that in my case I get the Dr to authorise myself sick', even for the 2 days we can self auth
. I asked if this was a new policy, but the answer was 'no, but in your case, you might like to consdier seeing a Dr, in case there's a trend'. Well my 'trend' was going sick for two night flights over a 6 week period.
I checked my time off sick on the portal and it averages three days per year over three years.
. I asked if this was a new policy, but the answer was 'no, but in your case, you might like to consdier seeing a Dr, in case there's a trend'. Well my 'trend' was going sick for two night flights over a 6 week period.I checked my time off sick on the portal and it averages three days per year over three years.
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By the way, never ever call in sick before midnight for a duty the next day. They will mark you sick for 2 days even though you were scheduled to work only one of the days. In other words, they mark you sick in spite of the fact it was an OFF or REST day.
So now, if i'm sick for an early morning departure, I call them after midnight and let them scramble to fill the seat. When they say I am required to give 4 hours notice, I tell them I was not feeling sick when I went to bed, but I was sick when I woke up.
So now, if i'm sick for an early morning departure, I call them after midnight and let them scramble to fill the seat. When they say I am required to give 4 hours notice, I tell them I was not feeling sick when I went to bed, but I was sick when I woke up.
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Halas, nice article, but if you show this to AAR he would not see the point at all 
That goes for the whole bunch of clowns who are running the show as well.
Any relationship between how you treat your workforce and the resulting quality of work is a concept that is completely ignored by them.
Its "we pay-you work" and "take it or leave it"!
And after worked 20 years for the Lufthansa Group, I must tell you that the mentioned days are sadly over. The once productive relationship between an "old style" management and a dedicated workforce, both proud to be part of an "Airline family", is history.
Its replaced by the new breed of cynical executives who are eager to screw everybody to please the share holders.
But back to the sick issue
My average sick rate used to be <1 day/year (either too healthy or too stupid) but somehow it increased rapidly
The good news is that our doctors are not the extended arm of the management and they are taking fatigue issues really seriously.
So make the additional effort and see a professional who is only responsible for your personal state of health.
Like eklawer said, if they want a war...play by the (changing) rules...and them hard
...see you soon at a "sleeping lab" in town
That goes for the whole bunch of clowns who are running the show as well.
Any relationship between how you treat your workforce and the resulting quality of work is a concept that is completely ignored by them.
Its "we pay-you work" and "take it or leave it"!
And after worked 20 years for the Lufthansa Group, I must tell you that the mentioned days are sadly over. The once productive relationship between an "old style" management and a dedicated workforce, both proud to be part of an "Airline family", is history.
Its replaced by the new breed of cynical executives who are eager to screw everybody to please the share holders.
But back to the sick issue
My average sick rate used to be <1 day/year (either too healthy or too stupid) but somehow it increased rapidly
The good news is that our doctors are not the extended arm of the management and they are taking fatigue issues really seriously.
So make the additional effort and see a professional who is only responsible for your personal state of health.
Like eklawer said, if they want a war...play by the (changing) rules...and
them hard...see you soon at a "sleeping lab" in town
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Along the same thing as EK lawyer said, if you are not fit to fly then DONT FLY period. Go to the clinic for your own peace of mind. That will have more impact than than just talking about here on pprune.
This whole sickness thing is another attack on the small number of guys how book off every weekend and commuters
This whole sickness thing is another attack on the small number of guys how book off every weekend and commuters
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I feel sorry for you guys but it will getting even more woth .....
Don t forget they are ar....bs and the management is only in the ME bacause they have been not good enough for the rest of the world.
It s same with the great ex ans... australian pilots !
Have fun !
Don t forget they are ar....bs and the management is only in the ME bacause they have been not good enough for the rest of the world.
It s same with the great ex ans... australian pilots !
Have fun !
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Odd, it might seem to the casual observer....but in smaller companies, employee morale is far better.
We had one pilot report sick for one month, with a doctors certificate of course, yet he was paid his full salary, and...end of contract bonus.
Senior Captains are paid big bucks, and not just during the contract, either.
They are paid a retainer during non-flying periods as well, to ensure their availability when the next contract is issued...and that can be on very short notice.
First Officers, likewise.
Flight Engineers, ditto.
Ground Engineers? Yup.
Generally speaking, the larger the airline company becomes, the less FD crew are treated with the respect they deserve.
And, it ain't likely to change, anytime soon.
We had one pilot report sick for one month, with a doctors certificate of course, yet he was paid his full salary, and...end of contract bonus.
Senior Captains are paid big bucks, and not just during the contract, either.
They are paid a retainer during non-flying periods as well, to ensure their availability when the next contract is issued...and that can be on very short notice.
First Officers, likewise.
Flight Engineers, ditto.
Ground Engineers? Yup.
Generally speaking, the larger the airline company becomes, the less FD crew are treated with the respect they deserve.
And, it ain't likely to change, anytime soon.
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EK is starting to resemble a crap regional airline back in the US. With Crap work rules and even worse QOL. (Quality Of Life)
Oh and Don't call in sick
less than 4 hours Prior. Thats an auto ABSENT. What a crock of ..... (fill in the blanks)
Genuises...
-Turbo
Oh and Don't call in sick
less than 4 hours Prior. Thats an auto ABSENT. What a crock of ..... (fill in the blanks)Genuises...
-Turbo
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Daytime, go to the Clinic, I have a headache, so what, if they don't have enough doctors tough.
Give them all the certificates they want, the clinic has not the budget for another one of Ed's Policies.
Give them all the certificates they want, the clinic has not the budget for another one of Ed's Policies.
I was (legimately) sick the other day and it's not a battle you want to go through when you're sick. Was told to come in for 'emergency appointment' at 9AM. After showing up was told, sorry, no doctors available, but you can come back in 12 days.
After making it clear to the receptioist that I will stand over her counter and cough in her face until a doctor sees me, I was admitted at 230PM!
The clinics can't handle the workload as is, and the new policy will only make it worse.