Don't get sick at EK
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Actually Muttley I (or my wife) have often insisted that we take our often injured sons (boys will be boys) to the KV Walk-in Welcare, even when the clinic is open.. The nurses are the ones to speak to, they know there's no chance of getting a doc appt on the day... They are actually some of the most sensible employees in the whole of EK - go nurses go
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Abso bloody lutely
Put the ball back into their court. If the clinic is full, ring your fleet manager or, in the very unlikely event she might not be available
, call the FDM. Politely ask them what they would like you to do. There is no way on this earth i'm parting with 700 sticky ones to get a friggin certificate.
Regarding the 4 hour rule..............how very pathetic!
Game on!
Put the ball back into their court. If the clinic is full, ring your fleet manager or, in the very unlikely event she might not be available
, call the FDM. Politely ask them what they would like you to do. There is no way on this earth i'm parting with 700 sticky ones to get a friggin certificate.Regarding the 4 hour rule..............how very pathetic!
Game on!
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Some Unpleasant Folks
"I feel sorry for you guys but it will getting even more woth .....
Don t forget they are ar....bs and the management is only in the ME bacause they have been not good enough for the rest of the world.
It s same with the great ex ans... australian pilots !"
I don't think it is appropriate to generalize about pilots like that. Some guys from there (Ans Aus) are fine folks to work with. My humble opinion...
Btw, I have only been here a short time, but I must say I am very skeptical about these "managers" that come from the outside and are completely out of touch with their subordinates.
YF
Don t forget they are ar....bs and the management is only in the ME bacause they have been not good enough for the rest of the world.
It s same with the great ex ans... australian pilots !"
I don't think it is appropriate to generalize about pilots like that. Some guys from there (Ans Aus) are fine folks to work with. My humble opinion...
Btw, I have only been here a short time, but I must say I am very skeptical about these "managers" that come from the outside and are completely out of touch with their subordinates.
YF
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Scenario
Let us have a hypothetical shall we.
First Officer A is scheduled to operate a morning flight to Europe with a sign on of 06:00. He has a good nights sleep but wakes up with sticky eyes when his alarm goes off at 05:15 . A condition he recognizes as conjunctivitis Conjunctivitis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . He recognizes the symptoms because both he, his spouse and children have all suffered it at least once since arriving in the dust strewn paradise that is Dubai.
Pilot A has waited 3 long years for his upgrade and will have to wait a bit longer because there are no promotions at present but he is close to the top of the list and will be having his command review in a few weeks. The last thing he wants is an absent day on his record but according to the new policy it is too late to call sick without being marked absent. So lets guess what he does.
Quote " This infection must be correctly detected and treated. Bacterial pink eye is highly contagious and airborne"
The net result of this is that Pilot A goes to work with his condition which may not only impair his vision but also gets passed to his fellow flight deck occupants, perhaps other crew and passengers. After all it is airborne which is how he got it in the first place. His colleague on the flight deck Captain B has been around a while and doesn't give a sh*t anymore so when he wakes up down-route a few days later with sore eyes he reports sick which turns the whole operation on its head. Especially if it were to be somewhere like MRU where there are not many replacements to be found.
Well done EK head shed
Another well thought out own goal. Watch this space for policy amendment.
First Officer A is scheduled to operate a morning flight to Europe with a sign on of 06:00. He has a good nights sleep but wakes up with sticky eyes when his alarm goes off at 05:15 . A condition he recognizes as conjunctivitis Conjunctivitis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . He recognizes the symptoms because both he, his spouse and children have all suffered it at least once since arriving in the dust strewn paradise that is Dubai.
Pilot A has waited 3 long years for his upgrade and will have to wait a bit longer because there are no promotions at present but he is close to the top of the list and will be having his command review in a few weeks. The last thing he wants is an absent day on his record but according to the new policy it is too late to call sick without being marked absent. So lets guess what he does.
Quote " This infection must be correctly detected and treated. Bacterial pink eye is highly contagious and airborne"
The net result of this is that Pilot A goes to work with his condition which may not only impair his vision but also gets passed to his fellow flight deck occupants, perhaps other crew and passengers. After all it is airborne which is how he got it in the first place. His colleague on the flight deck Captain B has been around a while and doesn't give a sh*t anymore so when he wakes up down-route a few days later with sore eyes he reports sick which turns the whole operation on its head. Especially if it were to be somewhere like MRU where there are not many replacements to be found.
Well done EK head shed
Another well thought out own goal. Watch this space for policy amendment.
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Turn it up Gulf News. If said effoh is so ignorant to go to work with conjunctivitis, he deserves at least a year in the sin bin before his next upgrade.
The FCI says:
A crewmember who reports sick less than four hours before the commencement of any duty will be considered as absent on the roster and the crew member shall notify the Fleet Duty Manager for the reason for the late notification.
The effoh should press 2. After conversation with scheduling, call the FDM. The FDM will say "**** mate! Conjuctivitus! Thats no good! Get some rest and go and see the clinic when you get a chance. I'll make sure you're marked down as sick. Get well soon."
End of 'saga'
This rule is a polite way of preventing last minute sickies. It's saying that if it's 2 o'clock in the afternoon and the last thing you feel like doing that night is heading east 5 time zones, then tell them! That way they have time to make arrangements, not waste 'standby' resources, and not have to deal with your sickie at midnight when they're in the middle of dealing with the 2am rush.
The FCI says:
A crewmember who reports sick less than four hours before the commencement of any duty will be considered as absent on the roster and the crew member shall notify the Fleet Duty Manager for the reason for the late notification.
End of 'saga'
This rule is a polite way of preventing last minute sickies. It's saying that if it's 2 o'clock in the afternoon and the last thing you feel like doing that night is heading east 5 time zones, then tell them! That way they have time to make arrangements, not waste 'standby' resources, and not have to deal with your sickie at midnight when they're in the middle of dealing with the 2am rush.
Last edited by Visual Procedures; 14th Mar 2009 at 09:20.
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GF , you are correct. As I said policy hear fails to see the safety ramefications. So fatigued and sick they go to work , all links in the chain.
Safety is talk alone in this outfit .
I personally will not fly if ill. I will absouloutely go to the American hospital at 4 am , and charge EK the bill from now on. No self medicating until I am able to get a call in to the clinic at 8 am to go see the doctor in the EK clinic.
Ok , so a senior F/O up for command wakes up with just a little chest pain , thats never been there before. His arm is a little numb. Its just pins and needles from sleeping on it he says to himself. His wife says , " hon you look ****e " , he says ah I am just a little tired I'll be ok , besides if I book off sick they will mark me absent. That will probably delay my command.
So he goes to work.
At VR the Captain calls Rotate and there is no response ..................
In a court a law gentleman the company culture could certainly come under the microscope.
Safety is talk alone in this outfit .
I personally will not fly if ill. I will absouloutely go to the American hospital at 4 am , and charge EK the bill from now on. No self medicating until I am able to get a call in to the clinic at 8 am to go see the doctor in the EK clinic.
Ok , so a senior F/O up for command wakes up with just a little chest pain , thats never been there before. His arm is a little numb. Its just pins and needles from sleeping on it he says to himself. His wife says , " hon you look ****e " , he says ah I am just a little tired I'll be ok , besides if I book off sick they will mark me absent. That will probably delay my command.
So he goes to work.
At VR the Captain calls Rotate and there is no response ..................
In a court a law gentleman the company culture could certainly come under the microscope.
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Lots of stick and no carrot.
VP I admire your optimism. As with all official communications from above, especially amendments to the F.O.M there are a number of ways to interpret them. Nowhere in the FCI does it say that once the crew member has had a chat to the FDM and a doctor (should he be able to schedule an appointment) the Absent day will be reverted.
There is a reason for it not being more specific and that is because it is a thinly veiled threat of punitive action should a pilot have the temerity to report sick less than four hours prior to duty. The past self certification rules have been in place for more than 11 years so what has happened to bring about the need to change the policy?
What happens for example if the pilot in the scenario wakes up with a blinding headache which eases only after the sign on time. Doctor says "Can't find anything wrong with you mate take a panadol or two next time it happens" Do you think the guy is going to get the AB reversed. I think not.
Muttley I agree entirely with you that going to work when physically impaired is irresponsible yet both the company and the crew share responsibility in this regard. It is the companies responsibility to ensure that a crew member is not intimidated in any way and feels free to remove himself from a flight at any time should he feel unfit to fulfill his duties and responsibilities.
It appears to me that the current flight ops management are desperately trying to patch up the leaks in the reservoir whilst still pouring water into it. The result of this sort of thing normally ends with the dam bursting at some point. A well led, motivated, and rewarded workforce does not require threats to get the job done but therein lies the problem.
There is a reason for it not being more specific and that is because it is a thinly veiled threat of punitive action should a pilot have the temerity to report sick less than four hours prior to duty. The past self certification rules have been in place for more than 11 years so what has happened to bring about the need to change the policy?
What happens for example if the pilot in the scenario wakes up with a blinding headache which eases only after the sign on time. Doctor says "Can't find anything wrong with you mate take a panadol or two next time it happens" Do you think the guy is going to get the AB reversed. I think not.
Muttley I agree entirely with you that going to work when physically impaired is irresponsible yet both the company and the crew share responsibility in this regard. It is the companies responsibility to ensure that a crew member is not intimidated in any way and feels free to remove himself from a flight at any time should he feel unfit to fulfill his duties and responsibilities.
It appears to me that the current flight ops management are desperately trying to patch up the leaks in the reservoir whilst still pouring water into it. The result of this sort of thing normally ends with the dam bursting at some point. A well led, motivated, and rewarded workforce does not require threats to get the job done but therein lies the problem.
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Mutley ,Whatever you say mate.
.
You can keep on defending these policies all you like. There will eventually be one that affects you too. All we have to do is wait , there is plenty more to come.
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You can keep on defending these policies all you like. There will eventually be one that affects you too. All we have to do is wait , there is plenty more to come.
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4 Golds you know how the deal works you've been here long enough. They legislate to the masses in response to breaches by the few, so I would expect there have been a few consistant "2" pushers so instead of bollocking them, we all get bollocked. Its worked this way for years, BS I know but that is how they do it. The other thing you would be all to familiar with is that any thing the horse writes is always confusing. How many times does he have to re-issue FCIs or clarify memos, he's a shocker with the pen. So if you have doubts about the intent of the 4 hour para, then ask for clarification. If it ends up that you were right then by all means come back and winge... I will join you.
Nowhere in the FCI does it say that once the crew member has had a chat to the FDM and a doctor (should he be able to schedule an appointment) the Absent day will be reverted.
The change has been from self certifying for 2 days as many times as you like, to two days per month. After that, see a doctor.
If the four hour thing is a "Thinly veiled threat" than it's one that has been around for years. Has anyone ever been adversley affected by it in the past?
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Guys i think we are all getting a bit too worked up over this. As Wiz says the 4 hour rule has been in the FOM for years. We can still take 2 uncertified sick days per month which is 24 days per year, that seems pretty reasonable to me. Emirates are fantastic with pilots who are long term sick so for those slagging them off just remember that.
There are a minority of people who take the Pi
big time and those are the ones this policy is aimed at.
I do agree that Ed needs to clarify the rule on going sick within the four hours will always result in you being marked absent as i feel that is totally wrong and negative to flight safety but i suspect that provided you can produce a doctors note it will not be a problem.
There are a minority of people who take the Pi
big time and those are the ones this policy is aimed at.I do agree that Ed needs to clarify the rule on going sick within the four hours will always result in you being marked absent as i feel that is totally wrong and negative to flight safety but i suspect that provided you can produce a doctors note it will not be a problem.
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Guys you are right. Sorry old Mutt . I guess I am just a little fed up with the continuous flogging. Apeasement seems the to be what we are all settling for. I still think its going to get harder , as they take more and more.
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If you are genuinly sick, press 2.
Then phone the FDM and tell them the situation.
Then phone the clinic and see someone (nurse/doctor or local hospital with referral).
The company will not punish you if you really are sick, it's the gutless B's who use the system for their social life who they want.
They can't afford to have you turn up at HQ and then go sick, just to avoid an absent day!
The FOM hasn't changed, you are still LEGALLY required to go sick if you are not fit to fly whether that's 10 days or 10 mins before duty.
Safe flying
Then phone the FDM and tell them the situation.
Then phone the clinic and see someone (nurse/doctor or local hospital with referral).
The company will not punish you if you really are sick, it's the gutless B's who use the system for their social life who they want.
They can't afford to have you turn up at HQ and then go sick, just to avoid an absent day!
The FOM hasn't changed, you are still LEGALLY required to go sick if you are not fit to fly whether that's 10 days or 10 mins before duty.
Safe flying
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The FCI refers to being able to self certify for two calendar days per month (which may be revoked at any time).
Does that mean if I call sick at 2200 for a departure at 0300 that will be counted as my two calendar days used up, even though I'm only going sick for one flight? Because that is the way I read it and I'll put money on it that is why the word "calendar" is there.
Does that mean if I call sick at 2200 for a departure at 0300 that will be counted as my two calendar days used up, even though I'm only going sick for one flight? Because that is the way I read it and I'll put money on it that is why the word "calendar" is there.
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EK Lawyer
Can't disagree with much of what you said. However, the legal responsibility is there for us and you know that's the first thing the company would try to hang you with.
Yes, they have a responsibility as well and there are enough annecdotes going around to potentially hang several heads in management for corporate manslaughter. God help us if we end up there!
If I need to go sick then I'll try to do it their way and play the game. If they screw me on the pay, then next time I'll put on my uniform and go sick after report.
Can't disagree with much of what you said. However, the legal responsibility is there for us and you know that's the first thing the company would try to hang you with.
Yes, they have a responsibility as well and there are enough annecdotes going around to potentially hang several heads in management for corporate manslaughter. God help us if we end up there!
If I need to go sick then I'll try to do it their way and play the game. If they screw me on the pay, then next time I'll put on my uniform and go sick after report.