LIDO charts and manuals
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LIDO charts and manuals
Recently, QR started evaluating for eventual implementation the LIDO instead of the good ol' Jeppesen charts and manuals.
Could you, guys, already using these, share some info/impressions of the practical use of the LIDO?
How are they integrated into the EFBs?
Thanks and good flying to all!
Could you, guys, already using these, share some info/impressions of the practical use of the LIDO?
How are they integrated into the EFBs?
Thanks and good flying to all!
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There are good points and bad about LIDO. The clarity of some of the plates is good. In other words it is not cluttered up and easy to decipher. I do not like the format for the SIDs, with the graphics on one page and the written portion a few pages later. I know some pilots think it is good, but I find myself searching for plates in the booklet a lot of times.
One big drawback is that EK never taught us anything about LIDO. It has been self-learning because that meant they did not have to train us with the associated costs. In fact we were only given a small booklet that quite frankly is inadequate.
One big drawback is that EK never taught us anything about LIDO. It has been self-learning because that meant they did not have to train us with the associated costs. In fact we were only given a small booklet that quite frankly is inadequate.
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The LIDO flight planning function is fairly good. A few minor hiccups every now and then. Things such as missing waypoints on the flight plan or waypoints that aren't on the route, but the lat/long is on the route. Winds are fairly good and a/c specific fuel burn tends to be very accurate.
However, the enroute and terminal charts, I think, have a lot to be desired. But, pilots are creatures of habit and going from Jepp to Lido, I think is a step backwards. But, it's all what you're used to. For me, I like the Jepp.
However, the enroute and terminal charts, I think, have a lot to be desired. But, pilots are creatures of habit and going from Jepp to Lido, I think is a step backwards. But, it's all what you're used to. For me, I like the Jepp.
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Lido or not to Lido
Having previously used jepps, I'm still partial to them . Perhaps for the simple reason that one has to learn anew.
Having said that I'm partial to Jepps simply because that there is a comfort factor.
Some of the points in favour .
We have coloured charts. which helps situational awareness with regards to terrain and sea level areas.
The minimas are rounded e.g 238 ' is 240 '
The 25 nm MSA cirlce is clearly visible on the main charts rather than in the corner of the jepps.
Info on whether the runway is groved or not is clearly stated on the runway info.
Still getting used to the various chapter vis a vis Jepps. Some good info that was not in Jepps with regards e.g altitiude corrections for temperature and pressure and also wind (altimeter correction)
Some of the taxi charts depict taxy way directions ( not displayed on jepps) for a similar destination.
As the FMC data base is lido there is greater commonality when validating the approach.
The Briefing package is also LIDO so all the notams tie up nicely.
The introduction ( legends and Tables ) is also in colour so it helps when you read and does'nt get too boring . Also when you actually see an object in real life it makes more sense.
Now know what RLG visual docking system stands for .
Still not using the Electronic version of LIDO .Still trialling ther version. . A couple of great features a) you can magnify the route to suit your sight. b) you can select a way point and the chart will be reselected to the area of the waypoint. So making it easier to locate the route.
Electronic Charts - When we finally get them. Less paper and Less weight.
The Draw back
The chart paper is not that durable . Lots of torn and missing paper
There is a lack of consistency in the way some things are depicted.
e.g we use PDC and DCL and we need to rely on company documentation to confirm wheter PDC or DCL is available. There are occasions where it is indicated on the chart but not always.
The runway length TORA info is diplayed variously in tabulated form and sometimes along the runway, depending on the destination Intermediate distances are shown via flags and adjacent distances or tabulated form.at other destinations. One example in Manila where no intemediate distances are available. for calculation and intersection takeoff. This can be quite distressing when trying to calculate distances due to different possibilites.
The way the missed approach procedure is written in contrast to Jepps can lead to confusion. ( But can get use to once highlighted)
No ATIS Freq on the approach chart. -- their response "thats too late to be looking for ATIS info!"
Some of the info is a bit disjointed . I'm sure that they can work on a format where you can find only dep info and then a separate area for arrival and then additional info. Some info is indicated on a separate graphic info and some purely in text and some in additional info. I find I need to have more charts open when briefing.
Some info on Route charts with regards to making forward contact with ATC are incorrect . This info is also not depicted the same way when using the electronic format. But this can be corrected via feed back to LIDO
The route charts get very congested and busy in some areas.
Cheers
BM
Having said that I'm partial to Jepps simply because that there is a comfort factor.
Some of the points in favour .
We have coloured charts. which helps situational awareness with regards to terrain and sea level areas.
The minimas are rounded e.g 238 ' is 240 '
The 25 nm MSA cirlce is clearly visible on the main charts rather than in the corner of the jepps.
Info on whether the runway is groved or not is clearly stated on the runway info.
Still getting used to the various chapter vis a vis Jepps. Some good info that was not in Jepps with regards e.g altitiude corrections for temperature and pressure and also wind (altimeter correction)
Some of the taxi charts depict taxy way directions ( not displayed on jepps) for a similar destination.
As the FMC data base is lido there is greater commonality when validating the approach.
The Briefing package is also LIDO so all the notams tie up nicely.
The introduction ( legends and Tables ) is also in colour so it helps when you read and does'nt get too boring . Also when you actually see an object in real life it makes more sense.
Now know what RLG visual docking system stands for .
Still not using the Electronic version of LIDO .Still trialling ther version. . A couple of great features a) you can magnify the route to suit your sight. b) you can select a way point and the chart will be reselected to the area of the waypoint. So making it easier to locate the route.
Electronic Charts - When we finally get them. Less paper and Less weight.
The Draw back
The chart paper is not that durable . Lots of torn and missing paper
There is a lack of consistency in the way some things are depicted.
e.g we use PDC and DCL and we need to rely on company documentation to confirm wheter PDC or DCL is available. There are occasions where it is indicated on the chart but not always.
The runway length TORA info is diplayed variously in tabulated form and sometimes along the runway, depending on the destination Intermediate distances are shown via flags and adjacent distances or tabulated form.at other destinations. One example in Manila where no intemediate distances are available. for calculation and intersection takeoff. This can be quite distressing when trying to calculate distances due to different possibilites.
The way the missed approach procedure is written in contrast to Jepps can lead to confusion. ( But can get use to once highlighted)
No ATIS Freq on the approach chart. -- their response "thats too late to be looking for ATIS info!"
Some of the info is a bit disjointed . I'm sure that they can work on a format where you can find only dep info and then a separate area for arrival and then additional info. Some info is indicated on a separate graphic info and some purely in text and some in additional info. I find I need to have more charts open when briefing.
Some info on Route charts with regards to making forward contact with ATC are incorrect . This info is also not depicted the same way when using the electronic format. But this can be corrected via feed back to LIDO
The route charts get very congested and busy in some areas.
Cheers
BM
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Lots of small mistakes on Lido charts. So many airlines are using Jepps that mistakes and ommisions are usually found fairly quickly and corrections issued quickly. With a handful of airlines using Lido, mistakes take a while to find or correct.
Secondly, Jepp went to the briefing strip on the approach chart for a reason. Most of the important info is found right in one spot. That info is all over the place on Lidos and different on each plate.
There is a reason Jepp is more expensive-they are the best and consistant. The enroute charts are ok, but the airport/approach/SID/STAR charts are HORRIBLE--IMHO.
Good Luck
Secondly, Jepp went to the briefing strip on the approach chart for a reason. Most of the important info is found right in one spot. That info is all over the place on Lidos and different on each plate.
There is a reason Jepp is more expensive-they are the best and consistant. The enroute charts are ok, but the airport/approach/SID/STAR charts are HORRIBLE--IMHO.
Good Luck
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Yeah, but can you look charts up or other info from Jepps online? Everything from LIDO is available online, incuding training materials, etc... If I am missing a chart, etc... I can log in online and print any of that stuff out. If there is a symbol or a term I am not familiar with, I can look all that stuff up online. Yeah, there are definitely some things that are not correct or things that could be done better, for instance the SID/STAR descriptions being on a different page, although I am getting used to that and it does sorta make it easier to decipher the procedure- I take a look at the textual decription for setting the intial alttitude and heading/course and then keep the graphic page open for the flight.... But the color is definitely a bonus and there does seem like there is just a bit more info available on approach charts, etc... that negates the need to flip back and forth between pages, like runway length/width, un/grooved, appch light system, vasi/papi among other things. Pages are thicker though, so they do take up more space....
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Another complaint about the LIDO enroute charts is (for EK ops, at least) the frequent need to use two or even three charts, as many EK routes run right along the edge of one chart and just onto another.
Finding where you are on the new chart can be a problem at times, as they don't align in what I would call a 'user friendly' way. I've taken to noting the lat. and long. of my exit point on the old chart and finding where I am on the new by looking for the lat. and long. on it.
I don't recall ever having to do that on a Jepp.
For terminal charts: the two page SID format took a bit of getting used to, but I find now that I've pretty well dispensed with the 4- chart (the diagram) unless I'm unfamiliar with the SID and go straight to the 5- chart (the written instructions).
One of my pet peeves with LIDO is the all too frequent use of what can only be called codes - that my already cluttered brain is expected to remember - (e.g., the altitude and speed restrictions on arrival into DXB). "a "*" at a waypoint means 'x' and "#" means 'Y" " In Jepp, even if it meant the chart was sometimes cluttered, if there was a restriction, it was spelled out in clear English.
Finding where you are on the new chart can be a problem at times, as they don't align in what I would call a 'user friendly' way. I've taken to noting the lat. and long. of my exit point on the old chart and finding where I am on the new by looking for the lat. and long. on it.
I don't recall ever having to do that on a Jepp.
For terminal charts: the two page SID format took a bit of getting used to, but I find now that I've pretty well dispensed with the 4- chart (the diagram) unless I'm unfamiliar with the SID and go straight to the 5- chart (the written instructions).
One of my pet peeves with LIDO is the all too frequent use of what can only be called codes - that my already cluttered brain is expected to remember - (e.g., the altitude and speed restrictions on arrival into DXB). "a "*" at a waypoint means 'x' and "#" means 'Y" " In Jepp, even if it meant the chart was sometimes cluttered, if there was a restriction, it was spelled out in clear English.
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Manfred,
Of course you can look up any chart/plate on Jepps online-your company just has to pay for it. As I am sure EK is doing with Lido.
Laughable response about ATIS not on the approach plates (if you are looking for the freq then, it's too late). I forget, that ATIS only changes every few hours....hmmm?
I have used 4 different types in my career, Jepp, Lido, EAG, NOAA and IMHO without a doubt Jepp is by far the best and well managed and layed out. Steak and shoe leather I guess.
Of course you can look up any chart/plate on Jepps online-your company just has to pay for it. As I am sure EK is doing with Lido.
Laughable response about ATIS not on the approach plates (if you are looking for the freq then, it's too late). I forget, that ATIS only changes every few hours....hmmm?
I have used 4 different types in my career, Jepp, Lido, EAG, NOAA and IMHO without a doubt Jepp is by far the best and well managed and layed out. Steak and shoe leather I guess.
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Great stuff, guys! Thank you very much!
One more question:
How are the LIDO charts incorporated in the EFBs? Any experience with these?
Good flying to all!
One more question:
How are the LIDO charts incorporated in the EFBs? Any experience with these?
Good flying to all!
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EFBs - Now I may be wrong and am willing to be corrected however at EK we moved to LIDO (probably because they are cheaper!!), then surprise surprise found they are not compatible with Boeing EFBs!!!!
What is the EK remedy - EK has now decided to remove the Boeing fit EFBs and to cobble together some sort of laptop add-on EK special with loads of big electronic boxes hidden badly around the flight deck in those spaces available ie the cubby hole behind the Captains seat and also the bottom of the wardrobe. Heath Robinson eat your heart out!!!!
What is the EK remedy - EK has now decided to remove the Boeing fit EFBs and to cobble together some sort of laptop add-on EK special with loads of big electronic boxes hidden badly around the flight deck in those spaces available ie the cubby hole behind the Captains seat and also the bottom of the wardrobe. Heath Robinson eat your heart out!!!!
As mentioned before, the enroute charts are not that well aligned.
They appear to be German-centric. When looking at the chart locator index for Europe, all the charts branch out of that country, for some reason
So when crossing scandinavia enroute to NA you find you have to use every second chart to get through.
The text is easier than Jepp though.
halas
They appear to be German-centric. When looking at the chart locator index for Europe, all the charts branch out of that country, for some reason
So when crossing scandinavia enroute to NA you find you have to use every second chart to get through.
The text is easier than Jepp though.
halas
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In the United States, my airline (Pinnacle) is the only regional airline that uses LIDOs. There were major hiccups when it came online, too many errors, etc. But now things have settled down, and I actually like the LIDOs. Takes a little getting used to, but once you get it, it's easy. It's been just one year since we switched, but if you asked me to look at a Jepp, I'd be like wuh?
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Boeing EFB
The Boeing EFBs are Pentium 2s. They just lack the CPU power to run Lido e-charts. Boeing has no immediate plan to upgrade the 777 class 3 EFB. Hence EK are forced to implement the Goodrich class 2 EFB - which are far from being jury-rigged and offer about 300% more performance.
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charts - ???
Why do we need charts any way... I thought the whole idea of living in the 20th century was to get rid of paper!!!
if you load the FM with the sid /star or approach why do i need to look at a piece of paper to make sure it is ok - if that was done correctly in the first place then there would be no need. ( in fact at Ek we now have a bulletin saying that if we dont have the chart it is ok to rely on the fm if the database is up to date... means I dont need to pull the chart out really at all??)
Hmm let me see.... ils minima... well if I used 250 AAL every time I would probably be right!!
Frequencies - they tell you these any way.... good for pre-loading but that is what 121.5 is for if you get lost...
Taxiing ... hmmm follow the greens .. works well or follow me ... or ask left or right...
grooved runways... who cares ?? you brake to stop before you run out of runway
Transition... in the FM
ATIS ... in the ACARS...( if D atis)
papi/vasi/t vasi... easy to work out just buy looking at things .. and we don't do visual approaches so who really cares.. the runway lights could be out and it wouldn't really make any difference to me..that is what a FPV is for!
yes I know this sounds like it is all too easy for modern airports and wont work every where.
the big thing I don't understand is how come the coding of FM points and constraints etc is different to the Jepps/LIDO..
Does anyone else get confused when the SID out of SIngapore for example has 'above 8000' constraints on one chart ( the graphical) and yet on the text chart it says ' initial climb 3000') So what do you put in the FCU... lets say you are missing the text chart??? Really doesnt matter as you can alway ask I guess....
and the FM has B030 or A080 etc etc ( or is it 30B or 80A ?? ) which is hard to match with the line on the altitude chart etc.
An accident or !@#$@!#$ up waiting to happen I reckon..
but what do I know ... only been flying for 30 years...
ps ... prefer Jepps as used to them... LIDO - colours are nice but I prefer .... NONE!
Try it one day ... don't pull them out and see if it makes a difference to your day.. other than your comfort zone...
Woodja the unprofessional pilot apparently....
if you load the FM with the sid /star or approach why do i need to look at a piece of paper to make sure it is ok - if that was done correctly in the first place then there would be no need. ( in fact at Ek we now have a bulletin saying that if we dont have the chart it is ok to rely on the fm if the database is up to date... means I dont need to pull the chart out really at all??)
Hmm let me see.... ils minima... well if I used 250 AAL every time I would probably be right!!
Frequencies - they tell you these any way.... good for pre-loading but that is what 121.5 is for if you get lost...
Taxiing ... hmmm follow the greens .. works well or follow me ... or ask left or right...
grooved runways... who cares ?? you brake to stop before you run out of runway
Transition... in the FM
ATIS ... in the ACARS...( if D atis)
papi/vasi/t vasi... easy to work out just buy looking at things .. and we don't do visual approaches so who really cares.. the runway lights could be out and it wouldn't really make any difference to me..that is what a FPV is for!
yes I know this sounds like it is all too easy for modern airports and wont work every where.
the big thing I don't understand is how come the coding of FM points and constraints etc is different to the Jepps/LIDO..
Does anyone else get confused when the SID out of SIngapore for example has 'above 8000' constraints on one chart ( the graphical) and yet on the text chart it says ' initial climb 3000') So what do you put in the FCU... lets say you are missing the text chart??? Really doesnt matter as you can alway ask I guess....
and the FM has B030 or A080 etc etc ( or is it 30B or 80A ?? ) which is hard to match with the line on the altitude chart etc.
An accident or !@#$@!#$ up waiting to happen I reckon..
but what do I know ... only been flying for 30 years...
ps ... prefer Jepps as used to them... LIDO - colours are nice but I prefer .... NONE!
Try it one day ... don't pull them out and see if it makes a difference to your day.. other than your comfort zone...
Woodja the unprofessional pilot apparently....
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Why do we need charts any way... I thought the whole idea of living in the 20th century was to get rid of paper!!!
Just my $.02
