Flight deck positions at FlyDubai Master Thread - Merged
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I can't believe this place...they inundate us with ways we can save them millions operationally, and yet they alienate a bunch of pilots by not including them in a meager pay raise! How much money does pilot morale cost/save/make an airline?
A-D scale
Terrible scheduling practices
Awful insurance
Upgrade based on how much a__ you kiss
HR department that doesn't like pilots
When my bond expires....I'm out!!!
A-D scale
Terrible scheduling practices
Awful insurance
Upgrade based on how much a__ you kiss
HR department that doesn't like pilots
When my bond expires....I'm out!!!
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Broken Wick,
sounds like there are alot of people baking cakes not to worry about the pay scale and other issues you mention.
Just remember if you're feeling a little down, as long as you stand up again you have a chance to win!!!
sounds like there are alot of people baking cakes not to worry about the pay scale and other issues you mention.
Just remember if you're feeling a little down, as long as you stand up again you have a chance to win!!!
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FD Questions
For me, FD is a big payrise. I have selection in 2 weeks and understand your unhappy but wondered if I could ask for some assistance on what to expect.
Did you by chance go via CTC or direct?
I'm screening in Dubai with CTC's presence.
Read through all the threads but nothing concrete on FD panel questions, Sim assesment.
Any info greatfully appreciated.
Safe flights.
P.S Air Baltic screening this month.
Did you by chance go via CTC or direct?
I'm screening in Dubai with CTC's presence.
Read through all the threads but nothing concrete on FD panel questions, Sim assesment.
Any info greatfully appreciated.
Safe flights.
P.S Air Baltic screening this month.
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This actually creates four possible scales for Captains:
For arguments sake, we will call them A-D scales. Our first Captains until around September of 2009 received one scale (as did FOs), which is the A-scale.
After that, there was another lower scale, which we'll call the B-Scale. This is a lower scale for FOs hired from the same time as well.
The new raises only apply to folks hired before October 2010, leaving out FOs who upgraded and anyone hired after October 2010.
That leaves us with the following:
A-Scale
A-Scale Captains who received the latest raise (A+ scale).
B-Scale
A-Scale FOs who upgraded and were paid the original A-Scale Captain rate.
C-Scale
B-Scale Captains who received the latest raise (B+ scale).
D-Scale
B-Scale FOs who upgraded and were paid the "unraised" B-Scale Captain rate.
B-Scale Captains hired after October 2010 and all subsequent new hire DECs.
The difference between the A-Scale Captain and the D-Scale Captain is roughly 77,000AED per year. The original difference between A-Scale and the original B-Scale introduced in September 2009 is 62,400AED per year.
Obviously, the difference between the new scales is only about 5%, which doesn't equate to a big disparity.
I don't want to offer opinion at this point.
Randy
For arguments sake, we will call them A-D scales. Our first Captains until around September of 2009 received one scale (as did FOs), which is the A-scale.
After that, there was another lower scale, which we'll call the B-Scale. This is a lower scale for FOs hired from the same time as well.
The new raises only apply to folks hired before October 2010, leaving out FOs who upgraded and anyone hired after October 2010.
That leaves us with the following:
A-Scale
A-Scale Captains who received the latest raise (A+ scale).
B-Scale
A-Scale FOs who upgraded and were paid the original A-Scale Captain rate.
C-Scale
B-Scale Captains who received the latest raise (B+ scale).
D-Scale
B-Scale FOs who upgraded and were paid the "unraised" B-Scale Captain rate.
B-Scale Captains hired after October 2010 and all subsequent new hire DECs.
The difference between the A-Scale Captain and the D-Scale Captain is roughly 77,000AED per year. The original difference between A-Scale and the original B-Scale introduced in September 2009 is 62,400AED per year.
Obviously, the difference between the new scales is only about 5%, which doesn't equate to a big disparity.
I don't want to offer opinion at this point.
Randy
Skybus Airlines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Business model
Attempting to emulate Ryanair's business model and Southwest's people-friendly attitude (often considered at odds in comparisons of the two airlines), Skybus had committed itself to be the least expensive airline in the industry with a projected CASM 28% lower than Southwest. To achieve this, Skybus planned to utilize multiple measures designed to increase revenue and decrease costs.
Employee Wages
Flight attendants were paid $9 per flight hour, and were not paid a per diem. While this was considerably lower than competing airlines' wages, flight attendants also received 10% of all sales made during the flight, splitting all commissions evenly among all flight attendants on-board.
Starting pilot wages were also well below average in terms of hourly rate, starting at $65,000 annually for Captains, and $30,000 for First Officers as a minimum guarantee. The average captain's earnings were about $90,000 vs $120,000 per year for a theoretical first year Captain at airlines like United Airlines (there is no first year pay at United) but in the case of Skybus this included a significant stock options and profit share package unique in the airline industry. Additionally unusual for Skybus flight crew was that there were very few if any overnight trips thus giving the crew far fewer hours away from home (known as TAFB or time away from base) and higher crew utilization rates for more efficient work schedules. Typical Skybus pilot workdays were 8–10 hours long (FAA maximum is 16 hours), which was lower than the industry average of 12–14 hours. Typical pilot work months were 14–15 days with no overnights.[21][22] The average pilot in the US has a work month of 16–17 days, and the average airline pilot wage is approximately $135,000 averaged between first officer and captain pay.[23]
Skybus was one of the few 100% non-union airlines in the United States at the time of its shutdown. However, it was facing a union organizing campaign from its pilots, who had collected enough signatures to hold a union referendum. The pilots were seeking to join Local 747 of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, based in Houston, Texas. Because of the number of signatures collected, it was presumed that the campaign would be successful. The election would have most likely occurred sometime in April 2008. Successful unionization could have severely undermined Skybus's below-market compensation philosophy and laid the framework for union activity among other Skybus employee groups. (Note that there is precedent for unionized pilots with most other employee groups remaining non-union, as is the case at Delta Air Lines.)
Last edited by onvacation; 28th Apr 2011 at 01:43.
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Air India flights cancelled by strike - The National
I found this an interesting read. The biggest issue is non-parity for the same position.
This pay model obviously is divisive.
I found this an interesting read. The biggest issue is non-parity for the same position.
This pay model obviously is divisive.
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No suggestion for a strike, just a hope that our managers responsible for the pay change may take heed at the level of divisiveness this pay scale scheme can cause.
I am hopeful that they can realize the savings (or costs) a happy pilot group can make are significant and difficult to monitor, but no less important to the bottom line. As the poster referred to above, Skybus didn't work.
Just wanting to help make our airline a place all pilots can be happy with.
My suggestion (not that I am in any position to make one) was to bring all pilots to "A-scale" with a one time bonus to current A-scale pilots. If that was too high a cost to the company, a simple stagger in pay raise, with a higher percentage to the B-scale pilots, would have at least brought us all closer to parity instead of increasing the gap. Also, a document outlining yearly raises would certainly help retainment as well as recruiting, and could offer a plan that is in sight of all pilots being on parity for the same position, with some making more than others based strictly on years served. I now make less than someone doing the same position that was hired a year after I was. That just doesn't seem right to me and numerous others.
The good news is that there is always a way to make it right, and the sooner it is done, the better morale will be. If nothing is done, morale will suffer.
Just my opinion,
Randy
I am hopeful that they can realize the savings (or costs) a happy pilot group can make are significant and difficult to monitor, but no less important to the bottom line. As the poster referred to above, Skybus didn't work.
Just wanting to help make our airline a place all pilots can be happy with.
My suggestion (not that I am in any position to make one) was to bring all pilots to "A-scale" with a one time bonus to current A-scale pilots. If that was too high a cost to the company, a simple stagger in pay raise, with a higher percentage to the B-scale pilots, would have at least brought us all closer to parity instead of increasing the gap. Also, a document outlining yearly raises would certainly help retainment as well as recruiting, and could offer a plan that is in sight of all pilots being on parity for the same position, with some making more than others based strictly on years served. I now make less than someone doing the same position that was hired a year after I was. That just doesn't seem right to me and numerous others.
The good news is that there is always a way to make it right, and the sooner it is done, the better morale will be. If nothing is done, morale will suffer.
Just my opinion,
Randy
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I don't know for how long you are here and in aviation ( low cost at least )
but I can tell you that with my experience ( in Europe ) the management in these kind of company don't care at all about your morale or mood.
There is a well known and successful company in Europe treating the pilots very badly but still making money and growing a lot faster than Flydubai despite what we are told every week that we are the fastest growing airline on the planet...
Pilots there are in general unhappy but still work there for many reasons like here people are quite upset but still staying here and doing their job.
All I am sure about aviation after so many years is that there will always be somebody ready to take your seat and be pleased with the conditions because he is coming from a country where they would be paid less than half what they get here or not left seat upgrade available for years or lost his job or need to go far away from his ex-wife and avoid to pay her some pension etc , etc , etc....
But the funny thing is that despite Skybus has been a failure the boss has been hired here....
So the lesson to learn is that it is better to fail when being a manager because you will be given another chance and most probably you can blame the others for the failure while being a pilot if you fail it will be in your file and will follow you for the rest of your career...
About the future here , my opinion , it will never improve it is like when you start building a wall if you don't start it straight from the beginning it will never be straight...
Good luck to you and I hope you will prove me wrong
but I can tell you that with my experience ( in Europe ) the management in these kind of company don't care at all about your morale or mood.
There is a well known and successful company in Europe treating the pilots very badly but still making money and growing a lot faster than Flydubai despite what we are told every week that we are the fastest growing airline on the planet...
Pilots there are in general unhappy but still work there for many reasons like here people are quite upset but still staying here and doing their job.
All I am sure about aviation after so many years is that there will always be somebody ready to take your seat and be pleased with the conditions because he is coming from a country where they would be paid less than half what they get here or not left seat upgrade available for years or lost his job or need to go far away from his ex-wife and avoid to pay her some pension etc , etc , etc....
But the funny thing is that despite Skybus has been a failure the boss has been hired here....
So the lesson to learn is that it is better to fail when being a manager because you will be given another chance and most probably you can blame the others for the failure while being a pilot if you fail it will be in your file and will follow you for the rest of your career...
About the future here , my opinion , it will never improve it is like when you start building a wall if you don't start it straight from the beginning it will never be straight...
Good luck to you and I hope you will prove me wrong
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It is nice to see pilots with a spine!
gulfnews : More flights cancelled as strike continues to bleed Air India
New Delhi: Air India pilots demanding more pay refused to work for the fifth straight day Sunday, defying a court order to end their strike and forcing the beleaguered national carrier to cancel three-fourths of its scheduled flights.
The airline said the strike that started on Wednesday was now costing it around Rs12 million (Dh1 million) a day.
Air India cancelled all but 40 of its 165 scheduled flights yesterday, leaving thousands more passengers stranded around the country after similar cancellations each day since Wednesday.
It said that while 90 per cent of domestic routes were affected, international flights were still operating between India and the United States, Europe, China and the Middle East. The airline has been hiring chartered flights for some routes.
Last week, the Delhi High Court ordered the 800 striking pilots to call off their action, saying it was "brazen and smacking of sheer arrogance", and launched contempt of court proceedings on Saturday when they refused to go back to work.
Three-pronged demands
The pilots are demanding higher pay, an investigation into alleged mismanagement leading to losses of over Rs160 billion, and removal of Arvind Jadhav as the airline's managing director. The Indian Commercial Pilot Association said on Saturday it had no choice but to continue its strike since neither the government nor Air India's management had invited the pilots for talks.
The airline, however, has threatened to fire the striking pilots. Nine already have been let go and six suspended. Other carriers were reportedly increasing fares as desperate Air India passengers looked for alternatives.
India's once-proud national carrier has been losing about $1 billion a year as it struggles with the legacy of a poorly executed 2007 merger, debt costs, a swollen staff and a toxic gulf between management and powerful unions.
The government extended hundreds of millions in bailout funds last year to help the company weather the global economic slowdown and compete with international rivals.
Internal appeal
Air India has sent a message to all of its staff asking for their help to end a strike by some of its pilots. Members of the Indian Commercial Pilots Association, representing Air India employees who once worked at Indian Airlines, started the strike on April 27 to demand pay parity with their colleagues.
The "ICPA struck work illegally for pay increase and parity, thus threatening our survival", Air India said in its message to staff. "Risking our airline's survival at this time is criminal." The company said it appealed to staff "to cooperate and to persuade our pilot friends to return to work and discussions — let us start afresh".
— With inputs from*Bloomberg
gulfnews : More flights cancelled as strike continues to bleed Air India
New Delhi: Air India pilots demanding more pay refused to work for the fifth straight day Sunday, defying a court order to end their strike and forcing the beleaguered national carrier to cancel three-fourths of its scheduled flights.
The airline said the strike that started on Wednesday was now costing it around Rs12 million (Dh1 million) a day.
Air India cancelled all but 40 of its 165 scheduled flights yesterday, leaving thousands more passengers stranded around the country after similar cancellations each day since Wednesday.
It said that while 90 per cent of domestic routes were affected, international flights were still operating between India and the United States, Europe, China and the Middle East. The airline has been hiring chartered flights for some routes.
Last week, the Delhi High Court ordered the 800 striking pilots to call off their action, saying it was "brazen and smacking of sheer arrogance", and launched contempt of court proceedings on Saturday when they refused to go back to work.
Three-pronged demands
The pilots are demanding higher pay, an investigation into alleged mismanagement leading to losses of over Rs160 billion, and removal of Arvind Jadhav as the airline's managing director. The Indian Commercial Pilot Association said on Saturday it had no choice but to continue its strike since neither the government nor Air India's management had invited the pilots for talks.
The airline, however, has threatened to fire the striking pilots. Nine already have been let go and six suspended. Other carriers were reportedly increasing fares as desperate Air India passengers looked for alternatives.
India's once-proud national carrier has been losing about $1 billion a year as it struggles with the legacy of a poorly executed 2007 merger, debt costs, a swollen staff and a toxic gulf between management and powerful unions.
The government extended hundreds of millions in bailout funds last year to help the company weather the global economic slowdown and compete with international rivals.
Internal appeal
Air India has sent a message to all of its staff asking for their help to end a strike by some of its pilots. Members of the Indian Commercial Pilots Association, representing Air India employees who once worked at Indian Airlines, started the strike on April 27 to demand pay parity with their colleagues.
The "ICPA struck work illegally for pay increase and parity, thus threatening our survival", Air India said in its message to staff. "Risking our airline's survival at this time is criminal." The company said it appealed to staff "to cooperate and to persuade our pilot friends to return to work and discussions — let us start afresh".
— With inputs from*Bloomberg
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CTC screening
Hi,
I have an assessment booked with CTC for Flydubai in Southampton, but got little or no updated information on the written & oral tests & sim check.
Does anybody have recent information?
Many thanks.
I have an assessment booked with CTC for Flydubai in Southampton, but got little or no updated information on the written & oral tests & sim check.
Does anybody have recent information?
Many thanks.
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To answer you dubaigong, I have been in aviation for a shade over twenty years, but I know that is relatively short in comparison to some.
From the experience I do have though, I know what cost pilots that are unhappy can have.
It is fine if you are making money hand over fist as an airline to take the hit that low morale will most definitely cause. It is another all together if you are a start-up trying to squeak every dirham out in order to break even.
The "free" money that can be had well outweighs the cost to keep your employees happy. That goes for just about any business, but is especially applicable to the pilot group. Fuel costs, on time performance, diversion decisions - these are all high cost decisions that you want your pilots making being on the side of the company, not against.
I have watched pilot morale decline to the lowest depths at a previous company, and I watched the cost to the company that had. There is a chance with this company, even with mistakes that have been made, to do the right thing. It works incredibly well - I've seen that too.
There have been numerous comparisons to Southwest here at flydubai. The biggest mantra of Herb was take care of your employees first, customers second, and stock holders last. The lesson there is take care of your employees and the rest will follow. It is a shame so many companies in and out of aviation have lost that ideal. It is simple and effective, and costs more to avoid than to embrace. Maybe the world economy wouldn't be suffering so badly if this were not pulled from the boardroom decisions.
Again, just my thoughts, and maybe I am naive. I know that it has worked at many businesses, including the one I ran.
Randy
From the experience I do have though, I know what cost pilots that are unhappy can have.
It is fine if you are making money hand over fist as an airline to take the hit that low morale will most definitely cause. It is another all together if you are a start-up trying to squeak every dirham out in order to break even.
The "free" money that can be had well outweighs the cost to keep your employees happy. That goes for just about any business, but is especially applicable to the pilot group. Fuel costs, on time performance, diversion decisions - these are all high cost decisions that you want your pilots making being on the side of the company, not against.
I have watched pilot morale decline to the lowest depths at a previous company, and I watched the cost to the company that had. There is a chance with this company, even with mistakes that have been made, to do the right thing. It works incredibly well - I've seen that too.
There have been numerous comparisons to Southwest here at flydubai. The biggest mantra of Herb was take care of your employees first, customers second, and stock holders last. The lesson there is take care of your employees and the rest will follow. It is a shame so many companies in and out of aviation have lost that ideal. It is simple and effective, and costs more to avoid than to embrace. Maybe the world economy wouldn't be suffering so badly if this were not pulled from the boardroom decisions.
Again, just my thoughts, and maybe I am naive. I know that it has worked at many businesses, including the one I ran.
Randy
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I totally agree with you Bug Up , these are the most important issues at Flydubai but it seems that pilots are more interested in wages than safety...
I spoke about that training issue with a few trainers and it seems that none of them are ready to take drastic action because each of them individually are happy about their own performance as trainers , they don't want to rock the boat and they want to keep their position...
The only thing that will have effect is if all the trainers were offering their resignation at the same time collectively.... But this will not happen...
So again in a country where union are forbidden and people are looking for their own personal interest I really doubt that things will change.
We have already lost a few of our pilots ( captain and first officer ) and more will leave if things continue that way and jobs become available in their home country.
But they will find other pilots accepting the situation and the conditions...
I spoke about that training issue with a few trainers and it seems that none of them are ready to take drastic action because each of them individually are happy about their own performance as trainers , they don't want to rock the boat and they want to keep their position...
The only thing that will have effect is if all the trainers were offering their resignation at the same time collectively.... But this will not happen...
So again in a country where union are forbidden and people are looking for their own personal interest I really doubt that things will change.
We have already lost a few of our pilots ( captain and first officer ) and more will leave if things continue that way and jobs become available in their home country.
But they will find other pilots accepting the situation and the conditions...
When the Head of Training is concerned about the Standards I think safety, standards and the Training department needs to be reviewed asap
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Being a bit of a Devil
I agree with some of what's been said,... but not all.
Recent failures in the sim, on the line, and also of some Command upgrades, probably reflect the tightening of the recruitment market (in terms of pilot ability & availability) than any fundamental change in the required 'standard', i.e. the Standard hasn't changed and the Training hasn't changed, so go figure what has changed?!
Now as for recently upgraded 'A' scale F/O's not getting the 'A' scale Captain's pay rise, well I'm actually quite surprised that flydubai didn't take the opportunity to put those 'A' scale F/O upgraders onto the Captains 'B' scale ?!
It would surely be fairer if F/O's newly promoted into the LHS were on the same salary scale as any Direct Entry Captain who joined on the same date on which that F/O achieved their upgrade?!
I'm equally surprised that recently upgraded F/O's did not have to pull a new seniority number, i.e. one from the bottom of the Captains list… they are, after all, on a new Contract as a Captain (than as per their previous contract as an F/O) ?!
So we now have a situation where Direct Entry Captains who joined, say, 12 months ago, are now sliding down the Captains seniority list (important for thinks like leave bids) as & when those who where F/O's achieve a Command (F/O's who joined, say, 18 months ago) ?!
Again, it would surely be fairer if F/O's whom have newly upgraded to Captain were junior (in terms of seniority number) to those who have held that rank within the company for a longer period ?!
Recent failures in the sim, on the line, and also of some Command upgrades, probably reflect the tightening of the recruitment market (in terms of pilot ability & availability) than any fundamental change in the required 'standard', i.e. the Standard hasn't changed and the Training hasn't changed, so go figure what has changed?!
Now as for recently upgraded 'A' scale F/O's not getting the 'A' scale Captain's pay rise, well I'm actually quite surprised that flydubai didn't take the opportunity to put those 'A' scale F/O upgraders onto the Captains 'B' scale ?!
It would surely be fairer if F/O's newly promoted into the LHS were on the same salary scale as any Direct Entry Captain who joined on the same date on which that F/O achieved their upgrade?!
I'm equally surprised that recently upgraded F/O's did not have to pull a new seniority number, i.e. one from the bottom of the Captains list… they are, after all, on a new Contract as a Captain (than as per their previous contract as an F/O) ?!
So we now have a situation where Direct Entry Captains who joined, say, 12 months ago, are now sliding down the Captains seniority list (important for thinks like leave bids) as & when those who where F/O's achieve a Command (F/O's who joined, say, 18 months ago) ?!
Again, it would surely be fairer if F/O's whom have newly upgraded to Captain were junior (in terms of seniority number) to those who have held that rank within the company for a longer period ?!
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Wow, OKC.....you can sum your post up in this: Screw the experienced pilots who came to flydubai and accepted A scale first officer positions just because they were not current on the 737. Why don't you just suggest flydubai make the upgrades sign new 3 year training bonds as well
Joining date is everything.......get in early. Why should someone who joined at a later date be senior to anyone for anything?
The pay issue is absurd and a black mark on this airline
, however anyone that joined after summer 2009 knew the rate BEFORE they interviewed and signed anyway.....
Also, it makes me sick that ANY pilot would advocate another pilot making less just because they joined later and AGREED to work at a lower pay rate! However, GREED does seem to be the only constant in this world.......
Joining date is everything.......get in early. Why should someone who joined at a later date be senior to anyone for anything?
The pay issue is absurd and a black mark on this airline
, however anyone that joined after summer 2009 knew the rate BEFORE they interviewed and signed anyway.....Also, it makes me sick that ANY pilot would advocate another pilot making less just because they joined later and AGREED to work at a lower pay rate! However, GREED does seem to be the only constant in this world.......
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OLD MAN COAL,
your fire must be low on hot coals with that ridiculous rant!!
An F/O that has been there 18 months and upgrades (most of whom outshine a number of DEC's) has every right to maintain their number in the queue. Length of service, loyalty and putting up with the Bulls..t that has been posted about for a longer period of time has to count for something in the current day of diminishing conditions.
Drawing a new CAPTAINS seniority number is as stupid as the new pay scales!!
Shovel a little more coal onto the fire before you think next time, it might help.
your fire must be low on hot coals with that ridiculous rant!!
An F/O that has been there 18 months and upgrades (most of whom outshine a number of DEC's) has every right to maintain their number in the queue. Length of service, loyalty and putting up with the Bulls..t that has been posted about for a longer period of time has to count for something in the current day of diminishing conditions.
Drawing a new CAPTAINS seniority number is as stupid as the new pay scales!!
Shovel a little more coal onto the fire before you think next time, it might help.
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Don't fool yourselves.....pay has always been one of the most important aspects of employment...and it always will be! Anyone mentioning that everyone is tired of hearing about it must be on the A scale!