Flight deck positions at FlyDubai Master Thread - Merged
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the people above you in seniority, who you seem to begrudge, have already spent 4-5 years doing the very same as what you are now
Don't forget that for those who still don't get what they think are good rosters be grateful you still have at least a say when you go flying, where and when you get your days off. Before PBS, all we could request was two days off and no destinations or time to go flying, at least its something now to have some control.
Also to a degree it is not PBS that gives someone a poor schedule but the person who has bid in the first place. I have heard of some dreadful bidding requests and then these guys wonder why they are always turning up in the middle of the night to go flying. It's just like an FMC, you put rubbish in, you get rubbish out. Learn how to use the system to your advantage. Bid as towards you seniority, bid effectively and you may just surprise yourself!
Believe me, prior to PBS things were much worse.
Man up, get on and enjoy the flying and be honest if you have to bitch about the schedule while down at the beach clubs (we've all been!), having got free entry and then getting 40% off lunch with EPC while the kids are having fun splashing around in the pool, then tell me, how bad really is it here…...
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Hidden cost of Electricity and Water
Another hidden cost is in the price of Electricity and Water...........mine cost AED 6,000 pa more than they would back home.......the houses have absolutely zero insulation and the glazing is low quality without argon or neon filling.
Prices per Kwh are lower than they are back home but I use a huge amount more Kwh here because the climate is so extreme and insulation is not used houses in the UAE.
I live in one of the smaller villas and, being very careful with the air con, have averaged AED 16,200 pa for Electricity and Water (Gas is not used here except in bottle form for cooking).
Prices per Kwh are lower than they are back home but I use a huge amount more Kwh here because the climate is so extreme and insulation is not used houses in the UAE.
I live in one of the smaller villas and, being very careful with the air con, have averaged AED 16,200 pa for Electricity and Water (Gas is not used here except in bottle form for cooking).
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PBS
PBS does work for anyone who was in the company when it was introduced, and it works a treat amongst the F/O's. I happen to be one of the privileged that work 8-9 days a month and never sees the early hours of the clock anymore. And I am currently enjoying 16 days off in a row without any leave.
But looking at my colleagues rosters now they have it worse than what I did pre PBS. Mostly because the flying before was varied. I got some long some short and some day some night. The guys with staff numbers of 2500 have all short all night with very little options for improvement.
Now with 2 years in the company that has doubled in size over the last 2 years I'd only have about 40 people below me as a skipper and would go back to all nights and morning KBL. Now for me that's fine because in 2 years time I'd get a decent roster but the same can't be said for FO's starting today. Anyone who starts today and plan to upgrade would look at 8 year's before any decent roster looking at the same expansion rate. So it's not as fair as you make it out to be.
But hey if won't affect me for long so I won't care about the rest of my colleagues then. Im all for PBS but the fact that I work 8 days/month and can get 16 days off in a row when someone who started a year after me enjoys the 0320 KBL and the next day a 2100 Bishkek shows its slightly broken.
But looking at my colleagues rosters now they have it worse than what I did pre PBS. Mostly because the flying before was varied. I got some long some short and some day some night. The guys with staff numbers of 2500 have all short all night with very little options for improvement.
Now with 2 years in the company that has doubled in size over the last 2 years I'd only have about 40 people below me as a skipper and would go back to all nights and morning KBL. Now for me that's fine because in 2 years time I'd get a decent roster but the same can't be said for FO's starting today. Anyone who starts today and plan to upgrade would look at 8 year's before any decent roster looking at the same expansion rate. So it's not as fair as you make it out to be.
But hey if won't affect me for long so I won't care about the rest of my colleagues then. Im all for PBS but the fact that I work 8 days/month and can get 16 days off in a row when someone who started a year after me enjoys the 0320 KBL and the next day a 2100 Bishkek shows its slightly broken.
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Fwiw (and to help spell it out for those whom were not here, i.e. when this sort of rostering was the norm) here's an example of a FZ roster from mid-2010 and pre-AIMS (note well the number of duties with rest periods / rest hours in, or v.close to the, 'to-be-avoided', 18-30 hour period). What we have today - via PBS - bares little or no resemblance to this.
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Probably i was misunderstood, i believe in seniority and i dont complain at all about my roster, and i m vary far to feel envious ....what i m saying is, for me its just a little bit unfair having people working in such different way. We are talking about to be senior in a company 5 years old and having people with a big difference in roster with just 2 years difference in seniority.
Results= you can fly with Cpt called on stby to do 4 sector and telling you "this is just a waste of time"
Seniority its a good think but working 7-8 days in a month to fly what you want ....its not what i desire.
To conclude, for me its more important to know what will happen to my salary if i need to stay out of work for any sick reason after 45 days ....do you know? ......well salary and allowances = 0
Results= you can fly with Cpt called on stby to do 4 sector and telling you "this is just a waste of time"
Seniority its a good think but working 7-8 days in a month to fly what you want ....its not what i desire.
To conclude, for me its more important to know what will happen to my salary if i need to stay out of work for any sick reason after 45 days ....do you know? ......well salary and allowances = 0
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Seems like a very 'I'm alright jack' attitude taken by some of our colleagues. So the fact that these harsh, tiring, inefficient, dangerous and unsafe rosters are now being done by others is ok now? The same rosters you were whinging and complaining that were unsafe. Are they not unsafe anymore?
So to my colleagues flying 8 days a month, completing 80 hours and all during daylight hours, would you not like to see a fairer system? One that gives everyone a fair shot?
So to my colleagues flying 8 days a month, completing 80 hours and all during daylight hours, would you not like to see a fairer system? One that gives everyone a fair shot?
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Man up, get on and enjoy the flying and be honest if you have to bitch about the schedule while down at the beach clubs (we've all been!), having got free entry and then getting 40% off lunch with EPC while the kids are having fun splashing around in the pool, then tell me, how bad really is it here…...
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VFR on top,
You have completely missed the point!
Not so long ago, before PBS, the rosters were much worse, very much worse, than anything the PBS system is awarding now.
What low seniority pilots here at FZ are getting now is still not as bad as we had in the dark old bad days.
It isn't going to change, so at some point, you're either going to have to live with it or vote with your feet...... by which time you'll probably be senior enough to stop moaning!
You have completely missed the point!
Not so long ago, before PBS, the rosters were much worse, very much worse, than anything the PBS system is awarding now.
What low seniority pilots here at FZ are getting now is still not as bad as we had in the dark old bad days.
It isn't going to change, so at some point, you're either going to have to live with it or vote with your feet...... by which time you'll probably be senior enough to stop moaning!
Last edited by what-to-do; 4th Jun 2014 at 09:44.
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PBS is here and here to stay so make sure you understand the system. I see sooo many guys ending up with crappy rosters and when you see their bid list it's easy to understand why.
I'm junior here but since the PBS introduction the rosters are phenomenal. (no joke) You just need to know what works for your seniority. And yes I do my fair share of nights...so what.
I'm junior here but since the PBS introduction the rosters are phenomenal. (no joke) You just need to know what works for your seniority. And yes I do my fair share of nights...so what.
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vfr on top: wrt "The same rosters you were whinging and complaining that were unsafe. Are they not unsafe anymore?", there are two parts to your question:
1) Was it unsafe? Yes, imho, the rosters 'way-back-when' were often unsafe, albeit that they were always ‘legal', e.g. just look at the Rest Periods within that roster that I've posted (above) and go figure just how tired you'd be with such sympathetic Rest Periods as those?!… and that particular roster was far from being a one-off, i.e. we endured that sort of thing for years! Indeed so concerned were some of us, that at least one of us (
) filed a ROSI with the GCAA about it; and be well advised that that - in the environment we're in here - takes some serious balls!
2) Is it still unsafe? Uhm, that’s never an easy question to answer; Perhaps a better question would be “Has it got better, and is it getting better?”. On both counts for that latter question, I’d say, "Yes!". And before you say “Yeah, but you would say that, i.e. a bloody ‘A’ scaler sitting at the top of the bid”, I would point out that a couple of months back, I managed to miss the deadline to enter my bids into PBS () but, nevertheless, the roster I got was still massively better than the ones we endured in the years gone by. QED?!
You’ve got to put it into the context of where we were, versus where we are now, and where things are going in the future. It is without any doubt that PBS has improved our lot and our lifestyle; and trust me when I say that if they were to ditch PBS and return to the non-PBS system, there would be an exodus, and it’s much for that reason that PBS was introduced, i.e. to prevent an exodus (and I suspect especially so of the more 'senior' pilots)!
And here's an interesting proposition: You might recall, from a little while ago, that the pilots were asked to produce a summary of their flying experience, i.e. hours on type / total hours. Uhm, now why was that (really)?
There's a suggestion out there that the GCAA (and probably also the aircraft Insurers) were becoming 'concerned' that the company might be suffering a 'dilution' of its overall experience level, i.e. what with all the new Cmd upgrades coming on stream, plus significant numbers of previously un-type-rated pilots joining the company, and therein the question was asked about what is the average experience level, and what are FZ doing to ensure that the experience levels stay strategically high?... always remembering that the last thing anybody wants is an incident / accident with the word 'Dubai' written somewhere down the side of it!
Of course with T&C's not exactly keeping pace with the costs of living in Dubai, there needed to be found a method to help with 'retention' (especially so of the folks with very high levels of experience on the B737, i.e. typically ones 'senior' pilots / the early joiners)... and the easiest (and cheapest) way to do that is to introduce PBS, i.e. it's an almost instant lifestyle win for the 'senior' pilots, and one that certainly helps with their retention, all whilst the new joiners are held captive by their bond.
Whilst this aforementioned suggestion might be pure speculation, it might certainly be said to have a level of plausibility to it.
1) Was it unsafe? Yes, imho, the rosters 'way-back-when' were often unsafe, albeit that they were always ‘legal', e.g. just look at the Rest Periods within that roster that I've posted (above) and go figure just how tired you'd be with such sympathetic Rest Periods as those?!… and that particular roster was far from being a one-off, i.e. we endured that sort of thing for years! Indeed so concerned were some of us, that at least one of us (
) filed a ROSI with the GCAA about it; and be well advised that that - in the environment we're in here - takes some serious balls! 2) Is it still unsafe? Uhm, that’s never an easy question to answer; Perhaps a better question would be “Has it got better, and is it getting better?”. On both counts for that latter question, I’d say, "Yes!". And before you say “Yeah, but you would say that, i.e. a bloody ‘A’ scaler sitting at the top of the bid”, I would point out that a couple of months back, I managed to miss the deadline to enter my bids into PBS (
) but, nevertheless, the roster I got was still massively better than the ones we endured in the years gone by. QED?!You’ve got to put it into the context of where we were, versus where we are now, and where things are going in the future. It is without any doubt that PBS has improved our lot and our lifestyle; and trust me when I say that if they were to ditch PBS and return to the non-PBS system, there would be an exodus, and it’s much for that reason that PBS was introduced, i.e. to prevent an exodus (and I suspect especially so of the more 'senior' pilots)!
And here's an interesting proposition: You might recall, from a little while ago, that the pilots were asked to produce a summary of their flying experience, i.e. hours on type / total hours. Uhm, now why was that (really)?
There's a suggestion out there that the GCAA (and probably also the aircraft Insurers) were becoming 'concerned' that the company might be suffering a 'dilution' of its overall experience level, i.e. what with all the new Cmd upgrades coming on stream, plus significant numbers of previously un-type-rated pilots joining the company, and therein the question was asked about what is the average experience level, and what are FZ doing to ensure that the experience levels stay strategically high?... always remembering that the last thing anybody wants is an incident / accident with the word 'Dubai' written somewhere down the side of it!
Of course with T&C's not exactly keeping pace with the costs of living in Dubai, there needed to be found a method to help with 'retention' (especially so of the folks with very high levels of experience on the B737, i.e. typically ones 'senior' pilots / the early joiners)... and the easiest (and cheapest) way to do that is to introduce PBS, i.e. it's an almost instant lifestyle win for the 'senior' pilots, and one that certainly helps with their retention, all whilst the new joiners are held captive by their bond.
Whilst this aforementioned suggestion might be pure speculation, it might certainly be said to have a level of plausibility to it.
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What to do
you are missing the point. So I ask you again, would you like to see a fairer system for everyone? Or are you happy with your roster so f*** everyone else?
For the record, I have been here long enough to get around 50% of my bids. I was around with the old roster. It is better now yes. BUT how you can justify some of the workforce getting 8 days off a month while others work only 8 days per month? It's inefficiency crewing wise, completely unfair and most importantly unsafe. I am senior enough to be happy with my roster compared to the dark old days but remember it is still the dark old days for some.
The attitude of you 'senior' guys is quite upsetting. I don't want to work 8 days a month I want us all to have a shot at a good roster.
And I believe yes it will change. I've heard it mentioned that a fairer system is being looked at and on the way by the end of the year. So enjoy it while you can....
you are missing the point. So I ask you again, would you like to see a fairer system for everyone? Or are you happy with your roster so f*** everyone else?
For the record, I have been here long enough to get around 50% of my bids. I was around with the old roster. It is better now yes. BUT how you can justify some of the workforce getting 8 days off a month while others work only 8 days per month? It's inefficiency crewing wise, completely unfair and most importantly unsafe. I am senior enough to be happy with my roster compared to the dark old days but remember it is still the dark old days for some.
The attitude of you 'senior' guys is quite upsetting. I don't want to work 8 days a month I want us all to have a shot at a good roster.
And I believe yes it will change. I've heard it mentioned that a fairer system is being looked at and on the way by the end of the year. So enjoy it while you can....
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It's inefficiency crewing wise, completely unfair and most importantly unsafe.
Unfair? Unfair how? You put the time in, you'll get seniority, you'll get more chance to bid for the plumb trips.
Unsafe? Unsafe how? Please don't throw out the regular line that we have low timed pilots flying together on all nighters etc. There was a time when we started places like Kabul and Kathmandu. Neither of the operating pilots had been there but we read the brief, kept to SOP's and just got on with it.
Each upgraded pilot here has got their seat having been through a thorough interview, assessment flights and many sim details. Not everyone has passed so it's fair to say that each one is worthy of their seat. Everyone has been through the same training and while one could argue that experience does vary through the workforce, to say that it is unsafe I don't believe is a fair statement.
PS, I don't know who is working 8 days a month (not me thats for sure), and if they can PBS well enough to get it then good for them.
OKC, that 0120 report four sector duty
. Anyone at FZ who never operated that duty has no grounds to say that PBS is failing them. That duty could (and maybe did) bring grown men to tears…
And even though we had seniority, we couldn't wriggle out of it back in a non PBS life!!
Last edited by Voodoo 3; 4th Jun 2014 at 15:10.
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VFR on top,
you're seemingly one of a very small bunch of people who just want to complain. I'm not a 'senior' pilot and I certainly don't get all my bids, and yes I work the occasional night flight too. When you mention that my attitude upsets you, oh please! Firstly, I'm not a senior pilot, I just accept the way it is and respect the contract I signed. Secondly, you appear to be complaining on other peoples behalf! Let them speak up, don't they have a voice?
More specifically, I don't see that many pilots working 8 days per month with 22 days off, but if they do, good on them. To be honest, that's where I want to be, and I'm prepared to wait my turn.
I have friends who are right at the top of the seniority (not trainers), who DON"T get all their bids either and, DON"T work 8 days per month, even though they would love to. So the pilots you're referring to must be a very small number indeed, if at all any.
What about the rest of us, the people not at the top who are extremely happy with PBS? Take it away, and I'm outta here!
One more point, if you're getting 50% of your requests why are you complaining?
you're seemingly one of a very small bunch of people who just want to complain. I'm not a 'senior' pilot and I certainly don't get all my bids, and yes I work the occasional night flight too. When you mention that my attitude upsets you, oh please! Firstly, I'm not a senior pilot, I just accept the way it is and respect the contract I signed. Secondly, you appear to be complaining on other peoples behalf! Let them speak up, don't they have a voice?
More specifically, I don't see that many pilots working 8 days per month with 22 days off, but if they do, good on them. To be honest, that's where I want to be, and I'm prepared to wait my turn.
I have friends who are right at the top of the seniority (not trainers), who DON"T get all their bids either and, DON"T work 8 days per month, even though they would love to. So the pilots you're referring to must be a very small number indeed, if at all any.
What about the rest of us, the people not at the top who are extremely happy with PBS? Take it away, and I'm outta here!
One more point, if you're getting 50% of your requests why are you complaining?
Last edited by what-to-do; 4th Jun 2014 at 17:10.
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It always amazes me how the socialism train is never late......
Why should a DEC who just walked in off the street have any better roster than the guys who put in 5+ years at this place? Some of you talk about a "more fair system", but what does that mean? Share days off equally? Why??? More importantly, HOW??? The company tried "fair allocation" and it DIDN'T work! People abused the system, bought their rosters! Over my long stint with this company I maybe did one long day flight a month, usually every 3rd month, while new guys were given flights I could never touch. Pure seniority PBS with ZERO meddling from crew planning is the only fair way to award rosters, and reward company loyalty/longevity at the same time. If you want rotating seniority please feel free to apply at EK. Our seniority is diluted enough with our vacation bidding system. Honestly some of you guys live in a socialist pixie dust fairy land where all things can be equal. Again, if you like how some other company awards its monthly roster, please quit and go there! Also, try to understand this isn't some 10 airplane operation where we are all "best chaps" and hang out at the pub after a rotation! For the most part this airline is made up of freelancers who will probably last a few years and quit to go elsewhere chasing the next big contract. Again, why should the people who earn the seniority by staying here give up anything to a guy who just walked in off the street???
Why should a DEC who just walked in off the street have any better roster than the guys who put in 5+ years at this place? Some of you talk about a "more fair system", but what does that mean? Share days off equally? Why??? More importantly, HOW??? The company tried "fair allocation" and it DIDN'T work! People abused the system, bought their rosters! Over my long stint with this company I maybe did one long day flight a month, usually every 3rd month, while new guys were given flights I could never touch. Pure seniority PBS with ZERO meddling from crew planning is the only fair way to award rosters, and reward company loyalty/longevity at the same time. If you want rotating seniority please feel free to apply at EK. Our seniority is diluted enough with our vacation bidding system. Honestly some of you guys live in a socialist pixie dust fairy land where all things can be equal. Again, if you like how some other company awards its monthly roster, please quit and go there! Also, try to understand this isn't some 10 airplane operation where we are all "best chaps" and hang out at the pub after a rotation! For the most part this airline is made up of freelancers who will probably last a few years and quit to go elsewhere chasing the next big contract. Again, why should the people who earn the seniority by staying here give up anything to a guy who just walked in off the street???
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It is really amazing... When someone brings up the subject of PBS and expresses his thoughts as a less senior pilot in this company, then the same people 'attack' him like vultures, to tell him off, and give him the lecture about how they suffered and how much sorrow their roster brought into their lives.
One can easily look back on the thread only to see people moan for the ex chief pilot or the ex safety manager, or whatever.
But now, hey, that's history and we, old timers in this company can have a lough when we get 20 - 22 days off, and hang out in the pub 3 times a week, or go to the beach hotel with our EPC card every Friday and Saturday.
And also don't forget to look at PPRUNE and check if someone is bringing up PBS, since, you never know, someone in the company's management might see that a lot of people are complaining, and decide to do something about it, make sure we tell him off, so we rest assured that our sovereignty and prerogatives are never in question.
One can easily look back on the thread only to see people moan for the ex chief pilot or the ex safety manager, or whatever.
But now, hey, that's history and we, old timers in this company can have a lough when we get 20 - 22 days off, and hang out in the pub 3 times a week, or go to the beach hotel with our EPC card every Friday and Saturday.
And also don't forget to look at PPRUNE and check if someone is bringing up PBS, since, you never know, someone in the company's management might see that a lot of people are complaining, and decide to do something about it, make sure we tell him off, so we rest assured that our sovereignty and prerogatives are never in question.
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It's not a Jr pilot vs Sr pilot issue. Honestly, I think those complaining about PBS don't really understand what they are truly complaining about. Seniority is a tenet of this profession, get over it......
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Pole shift,
Yet another person that doesn't read posts completely. If you're referring to the person above 'VFR on top', then he or she admits that they are not a junior pilot and that they get 50% of their PBS bids. Their issue is that they want to fight for the junior pilots here at FZ, and make it 'fair' for everyone.
I have made it clear that I am not a senior pilot, BUT, I respect the seniority scenario and the contract I signed.
There is no 'attack' on anyone here, freedom of speech etc. However, there is a difference of opinion and furthermore, a rather weak argument against PBS.
As for your post, it seems more like a rant than a constructive argument. What exactly is your point? We disagree with the post, period!
Just how many people do you know with 22 days off?
Yet another person that doesn't read posts completely. If you're referring to the person above 'VFR on top', then he or she admits that they are not a junior pilot and that they get 50% of their PBS bids. Their issue is that they want to fight for the junior pilots here at FZ, and make it 'fair' for everyone.
I have made it clear that I am not a senior pilot, BUT, I respect the seniority scenario and the contract I signed.
There is no 'attack' on anyone here, freedom of speech etc. However, there is a difference of opinion and furthermore, a rather weak argument against PBS.
As for your post, it seems more like a rant than a constructive argument. What exactly is your point? We disagree with the post, period!
Just how many people do you know with 22 days off?
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Seniority x 3
I have 6 flights and 2 standbys and 22 days off. This month. So now you know someone who sctually has that!
I know chaps getting rostered better!
Old King Coal is not only a merry old soul he is also on the money. As are Voodoo, Pole, LostinT2 and Asteroid!
So VFR whilst I'm not saying that the majority are always right. There does seem to be more who get that this is not about "I'm alright Jack" as reward for longevity.
We have no incremental pay scale and no other reward, so am I happy that some pilots are flying 22 days a month with 8 days off when I'm not?
Errm yes I am as it builds a stronger airline for the future as the more senior end has more to loose by leaving as they wont get that sort of roster elsewhere. That means better retention of those experienced in FZ which is good for the company in the long term.
Rentention is always cheaper than recruitment and the double bonus being stability is good from a training perspective that means more money in the pot. That will be the pot belonging to the company that we are all in together.
Right don't we have a party to get ready for?
I know chaps getting rostered better!
Old King Coal is not only a merry old soul he is also on the money. As are Voodoo, Pole, LostinT2 and Asteroid!
So VFR whilst I'm not saying that the majority are always right. There does seem to be more who get that this is not about "I'm alright Jack" as reward for longevity.
We have no incremental pay scale and no other reward, so am I happy that some pilots are flying 22 days a month with 8 days off when I'm not?
Errm yes I am as it builds a stronger airline for the future as the more senior end has more to loose by leaving as they wont get that sort of roster elsewhere. That means better retention of those experienced in FZ which is good for the company in the long term.
Rentention is always cheaper than recruitment and the double bonus being stability is good from a training perspective that means more money in the pot. That will be the pot belonging to the company that we are all in together.
Right don't we have a party to get ready for?
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VT
A reminder of life in your Disney-world.
The stories of children behind bars at Dubai Women's Prison
f.
A reminder of life in your Disney-world.
The stories of children behind bars at Dubai Women's Prison
f.