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Another QR eathquake landing in JED?

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Another QR eathquake landing in JED?

Old 14th Jul 2008, 07:29
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second officer

all this is none sense talk.

an incident can happen to anyone at any time. there is abstouley nothing wrong when a commerical pilot operates an A330. in fact every country in this world lets it own citizens operate jet aircraft with CPL license. for Example, Emirates Airline hires Emarati citizens direct on B777. easy jet in UK hires direct on A320. My point is foreigners should thank god that Qatar Airways is giving them the opportunity to operate the A330 with no discrimination against foreign low time pilots like other airlines that discrminates against foregners in this region.


John
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Old 14th Jul 2008, 07:48
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Oh dear, pita bread is at it again! Major operators around the world have been landing 330's and 340's flap 3 for years with no problems. And where did the words tail strike come into this discussion?
This landing was carried out by the SO in less than optimum conditions and should not have done so. Pre-empting the investigation, I would suggest it had nothing whatsoever to do with the flap configuration. It was the direct responsibility of the trainer and it should remain as that! An SO does not have the experience to land in a dust storm and the trainer should be able to recognize a rapid sink rate near the ground before it develops into a crash landing.
If an aircraft of any sort landed at 8.5g there would be a smoking hole. Our friend who started the post was referring to the richter scale as was obvious by the tongue-in-cheek title.
The word around the office is that it was about 2.8g and why would Airbus be responsible for replacing the gear? You crash 'em; you fix 'em.
GB
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Old 14th Jul 2008, 07:50
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...in fact every country in this world lets it own citizens operate jet aircraft with CPL license.
Nice attempt at the old 'If you cannot convince them, confuse them' trick john 321, but your assertion is cr@p!
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Old 14th Jul 2008, 09:15
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Arrow

oryxbollocks....

The alleged 2.8'g' impact probably resulted in more than the MLG needing to be replaced, and I would be really surprised if there was not additional damage!

And if the damage is as reported then this is definitely an accident in accordance with ICAO Annex 13 definitions.

Recent reports on PPRuNe suggest that this isn't an isolated heavy landing incident event in the day-to-day operations of Qatar Airways.

I wonder if the Qatar CAA will investigate the accident and publish any safety recommendations to prevent similar accidents happening?
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Old 14th Jul 2008, 09:32
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Dont fully agree with 321, however there are various airlines out there

that do infact recruit and implement S/O programs as well as maintain

training standards succesfully

1 emirates airlines (wide body only)
2 British Airways
3 Cathy pacific (wide body only)
4 ryan air
5 my travel
6 easy jet (largest program)
7 Qatari airlines
8 condor
9 Thomas cook
10 Wizz air
11 Lufthansa
12 Gulf air
13 Air arabia
14 Tiger airways etc...etc.. not to mention growing asian markets


Am not too sure of the circumstances involved in the incident who was

right or wrong or conditions but to clarify that programs do exist around in

aviation, which work.


It's upto training dept and traininee to do their respective parts but as

far as what aircraft one should be operating well that is something im

guessing mangement decides on based on requirements. Not everyone

may agree but in todays world aviation is dynamic and growing at alarming

rate so next time you board a 747 in cathy or 320 in europe be aware that your captain on board or perhaps the first officer could very well have been one of the few people who were one day in the past a second officer.

Focus on the issue at hand get the facts straight, stop the assumptions and try to learn what not to do. Fly safe
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Old 14th Jul 2008, 13:58
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At 2.8g on a landing that should mean the rate of desent was 1000 ++. If you are going to be in the training department then you should recognize this was going to be a hard one and taken over the landing.

A huge % should be blamed on the training captain and training. Letting a S/O land in a sand storm with probably only a few landings under his belt you should be on full alert, if you even let him land. So the training capt is at great fault here. Just being a training capt, you should always be on full alert always.
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Old 14th Jul 2008, 14:32
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Angry

Hold your horses please gentlemen!

The facts:

Airplane landed with 2.8G as stated above. SO was flying in standard JED conditions ( windy and dusty, but all well within the limits of the QR OM).
SO performed rather well until very low level, he is known to be one of the better ones. Aircraft sank at the last moment (below 100ft) and the CAPT did give the necessary inputs (Full aft stick at 50 feet if I am correct)
Airplane was an A330-300. At this height this was all what could have been done!

Was it a downdraft? Windshear? Low level turbulence? Only time will tell but dont be too fast shooting down fellow aviators please!
It remains a fact that when you do intensive training on these machines, things like this WILL happen! No matter the caliber of the trainer!


Regarding the training of SOs on medium to heavy jets.

IF YOU DONT KNOW THE FACTS, PLEASE DO NO NOT SPREAD RUBBISH AROUND!

Sure,many other airlines have training programs around whereby 250hr FOs with a CPL/ME-IFR are being trained on these jets.

But all of the airlines who do these kind of training programs provide a lot of extra training to these people!.
Additional MCC training on the type where you will be flying on, Jetconversion courses of more than 40Hrs sim, additional FFS sessions.....
Most of them have even adapted the whole training program before, from 0 hours on the C152 all the way to the twin, to implement the actual SOPs and procedures from day number 1
In Singapore and Cathay, the cadets actually learn to fly a Learjet before they even start their training on the A330!


So please, do not compare these programs to the pathetic preparation Qatar Airways is giving its cadet pilots!

They start in the QAC, flying PA28s around over DOHA and Qatar. The whole program has not been adapted at all to an airline enveronment! They only can practice IFR flying at OTBD airport and in their FRASCA trainer.

Once in a while they go on a field trip to OBBI or OMDB.

No MCC flying, no briefings, nothing!

They dont even bother to teach them discipline and professionalism. May I remind you, this is a government sponsored program and the cadets are guaranteed a job at Qatar Airways. There is no time limit on their training, nor is there any financial limit. Its just a matter of providing them training until they scrape through the checks, even if this means flying a PA28 for 500hrs before you can do a descent steep turn!

I am sure most people who have done similar training programs in the past, know that it is exactly the time limitation (most programs you have 12 months to pass your ATPL theory, followed by exactly 6 months to go from solo to ME-IFR) which ensures the airline of a good standard ofquality due to the natural selection which happens here! Add to this the pressure of having to pay back this training even if you dont pass and you ahve a formula that works!

Over here we are just dealing with a bunch of spoiled little children who did not know what to do with their lives so they decided to become a hotshot airline pilot on the expense of the state of Qatar! After all it beats driving your landcruiser around 7/7 , doesnt it? (My apologies to the college guys who are the exception to the rule and who actually well and truly want to become a pilot, unfortunately they are not that many)

They call it Qatarisation!

After that they join Qatar Airways where they are pushed through the same conversion course as all other pilots with experience who join QR. This means a 30 days crash course from zero to hero on an A330 or A320!

There even is NO special FTD or FFS syllabus for these pilots! No Jetconversion...NOTHING! Just squeeze them through the system and pray they survive at the other end(FFS has been changed now I believe, not sure)

Then they come on line. 120 sectors line training on an A330!

This so far has been the only fase which has been adapted for SO training but lets face it, by this stage the damage is done!

And in any case, on the QR A330 fleet you fly an average of 10 sector/month. So no continuity in training, never they fly with the same instructor and it takes them FOR EVER to get anywhere...there goes the motivation together with a roller-coaster-like learning curve!

This whole SO program on A330 was ill thoughtover, ill-prepared and an incident waiting to happen! Training department and managment where well informed beforehand, but once again they thought the established carriers where wrong and they would show them how to do it the right way!

CONGRATULATIONS!

Last edited by Sgnr de L'Atlantique; 14th Jul 2008 at 14:50.
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Old 14th Jul 2008, 15:36
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Can I say WE TOLD YOU SO!!!

This happens, because the company is putting people with NO experience on a A330, i said it before and i say it again, they (SO's) should go into the A320 first and promote the A320 guys into the A330 HELLO!! retention!! most guys on 320 are hurting to go on a bigger a/c, why do you think there are so many resignations? but fcking stupid management decides the opposite...

well done goat hearders.... we told you so.
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Old 14th Jul 2008, 15:43
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Which specific aircraft was involved?
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Old 14th Jul 2008, 15:53
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foreigners should thank god that Qatar Airways is giving them the opportunity to operate the A330
Alakem Salam John321. What a funny little man you are.

SQN LDR Dear Sir, The Goat is protected by God himself! Training is wasting money better spent on a ship, a villa or another woman.

The Goat has never crashed, allahu akbar....
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Old 14th Jul 2008, 15:59
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thanking god?

gcc locals should thank god foreigners are here to teach them how to fly aircraft like the A330, they would not have a chance in a real airline
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Old 14th Jul 2008, 17:41
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Togaluck:

Hey Toga,

Go back to your rotten egg-shell! You might find your luck in there

Talk about personalities. You are just giving the local's another excuse to hate us more (expat's). Good thing we don't fly for the same airline
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Old 14th Jul 2008, 18:38
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The aircraft is an A330-300 as said before

A7-AEE
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Old 14th Jul 2008, 19:55
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Ceo pita has no idea at all.
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Old 14th Jul 2008, 20:33
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A321

There is more A319 and A320 on market then A321 .
A 330-300 if you doing F3 landing youre pitch is about 4-6 and if you pull full stick at 50 ft what can happen ?? nothing ? so why we have to call pitch at 7,5 and why so many memos about tail strike ?
A321 during F3 landing pitch is 5-6 .

Ok its INST fault and demote him and do same for all on A330 fleet which had hard landings in KTM and during landings with trainee and you can close training department becouse there will be 3-4 inst left .
FRA,KTM,JED,DEL,JNB,DOH,LHR,LGW all hard landings and more and more on A330 .
Blame it on INST do not blame training department which decided that transition from PA28 to A330 is ok . PA-28 landing with 72KTS and staring fleare at 2 ft while on A330 you land with 146 kts and fleare at 30-40 ft .
Yes airlines like Emirates do it becouse no other fleet than w/b.
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Old 15th Jul 2008, 10:36
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correct information from ATLANTIQUE.....I've train some of cadet who graduated from Qatar Aeronautical College about 2 years back...and the their mentality is... ( the nice word is..just a bunch of spoiled boys whose tired crashing their land cruiser or nisaan patrol )...sorry..but thats the reality..
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Old 16th Jul 2008, 04:23
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Went and asked one of the safety guys. We have had 5 hard landings in 3 years. He didn't know whether this was statistically ok or not as airlines accept this as part of the business of operating. There was no hard landing in KTM. CEO you should know that responsible pilots will report a 'suspected' hard landing which is what the KTM one was.
Reference Cathay, I asked one of the guys we have here about their SO scheme. They do have ex SO's now checked out in command. However, they do not allow their SO's to fly until they have checked out in the rhs. This takes around 2 years.
The Sqdr Ldr and Safari Goat appear to be right on the money so read what they have to say again! (Should be a 'q' not a 'g' right de L'Antique?) Except that apparently the aircraft did not 'sink at the last moment'. It flew into the ground as you would expect from a low-time pilot flying in those conditions.
Amazing what you can discover just by asking around rather than foaming off at the mouth like some!
And thanks, John321, for letting me fly your BIG planes! Wow. And there I was thinking I was working for QR 'cause they needed me? Silly me.
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Old 16th Jul 2008, 06:20
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wooops pull pull

O sorry JNB was not hard landing it was a bit more than that .
SO with 400 landings in 6 y will become Capt and fly oure kids to this funny destinations on A320 ?? Not mine mate . Am sending them with Ekor EY .
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Old 16th Jul 2008, 10:48
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Nope...

Sgnr = Seigneur

Heard that this time QR will not be organizing a witch hunt to look for a culprit! The training Capt will be fine and rightly so!
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Old 16th Jul 2008, 12:05
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Aeronautical kindergarden

I must 100 percent agree with sr l atlantique, and I will add the bad ATTITUDE among SO in QR. Usually they arrive after the Instructor for Briefing, etc etc.
The SO program on 330 must be cancel NOW, hey ,training mng guys OPEN YOUR EYES, what are you waiting for.
A good tip to my fellows colleges, before letting your family in a Qr flight check if a SO is operating.
Must sound wrong and ofensive, but believe me, I will do it.
Cheers
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