DXB Radar vectoring 7th /8th
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Dudes...you guys bitch more than drivers!! Keep it up. 
Never realised there was such animosity between AUH and DXB.
Never realised there was such animosity between AUH and DXB.
Join Date: May 2006
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I don't think we can keep blaming the great dane for all the shambles, that are going on in the UAE ATC wise..........Didn't he leave the building some time ago ??? We have since sometime in 2006 been climbing/descending tfc opposite direction on the same airway (maxmo/darax), and despite numerous complaints and heads up to management, nothing has been done about this issue so far. At OMDB we have had 2 operational RWY's for some time now , and you know what, we still don't have permission (from GCAA ?) to operate them in dual mode when on 30 
What are they waiting for ???
What are they waiting for ???
Join Date: Sep 2003
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Tin & Prowler -
Read your instructions 5 min flow through MAXMO H24 to be relaxed if able at the UAE ACC centre supervisors discretion . I’ll get the date this was issued next time I’m at work if you like but has been out for at least 6 months
Being on the shift where the 6 phone calls occurred (and I might point out the shift that causes 90% our problems with Dubai not the other crew we work with) the crew quote "started up 8 departures through MAXMO as we were hoping we could cancel the outbound flow ". What they don't seem to appreciate is that that not only do we have restrictions placed on us about the amount of traffic on freq but there are restrictions about what we can give to other sectors. ie procedural to Tehran, 3 per 10 min per gate at night to Muscat, 10nm in trail to Bahrain etc etc. Our second crew know, understand and comply with this without a complaint in the world why can our first crew not?
All these restrictions are placed on each sector at Abu Dhabi, Dubai, UAE ACC, Muscat etc etc for a very very very simple reason. Safety. If you are unable to understand/comply with that then quite frankly you have no place in ATC/aviation. If you can comply/understand great, stop complaining and carrying on (that goes for everyone not just UAE ACC or Dubai depending on which side of the fence you are sitting on) and start helping.
The sooner these restrictions are enforced by everyone the sooner new/better procedures will be put in place. There is nothing that improves efficiency around this place like bleeding money. (Or maybe I’m just an optimist and should go off to Ireland with the rest of the UAE ACC)
PS To everyone. If you get an instruction that does not comply with the LOA(ie less then 10 min notice for outbound flow/holding at last min etc etc), follow the instruction and call the center/app to ask whats going on. If you are not satisfied/disagree with the answer then,
1) comply with the instruction, it was given for a reason and needs to be implemented
2) Record it in your log book with all the details
3) Give the info to your STACO to investigate
Read your instructions 5 min flow through MAXMO H24 to be relaxed if able at the UAE ACC centre supervisors discretion . I’ll get the date this was issued next time I’m at work if you like but has been out for at least 6 months
Being on the shift where the 6 phone calls occurred (and I might point out the shift that causes 90% our problems with Dubai not the other crew we work with) the crew quote "started up 8 departures through MAXMO as we were hoping we could cancel the outbound flow ". What they don't seem to appreciate is that that not only do we have restrictions placed on us about the amount of traffic on freq but there are restrictions about what we can give to other sectors. ie procedural to Tehran, 3 per 10 min per gate at night to Muscat, 10nm in trail to Bahrain etc etc. Our second crew know, understand and comply with this without a complaint in the world why can our first crew not?
All these restrictions are placed on each sector at Abu Dhabi, Dubai, UAE ACC, Muscat etc etc for a very very very simple reason. Safety. If you are unable to understand/comply with that then quite frankly you have no place in ATC/aviation. If you can comply/understand great, stop complaining and carrying on (that goes for everyone not just UAE ACC or Dubai depending on which side of the fence you are sitting on) and start helping.
The sooner these restrictions are enforced by everyone the sooner new/better procedures will be put in place. There is nothing that improves efficiency around this place like bleeding money. (Or maybe I’m just an optimist and should go off to Ireland with the rest of the UAE ACC)
PS To everyone. If you get an instruction that does not comply with the LOA(ie less then 10 min notice for outbound flow/holding at last min etc etc), follow the instruction and call the center/app to ask whats going on. If you are not satisfied/disagree with the answer then,
1) comply with the instruction, it was given for a reason and needs to be implemented
2) Record it in your log book with all the details
3) Give the info to your STACO to investigate
Last edited by W.O.Bentley; 12th Apr 2008 at 03:38.
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puff daddy
rriving at just after midnight which I know is a busy time we were asked by UAE to speed up for the descent to 320kts, then handed over to DXB aircraft were being told to take up the hold at DESDI so we put into the FMC the expected hold, 23 miles to run to DESDI on a track of about 125 slow 230kts and turn left HDG 060, after about 5 mins turn right HDG 230 then after about another 5 mins on that HDG turn left track to DESDI. At DESDI HDG 090all the way to the coast then turn right 180 degrees vectoring ILS 12L. All of which used some 2 tonnes extra fuel, not that I care because I don't pay for the stuff, but it was about 15 mins of messing around when i could have been on my way home!
From a UAE controllers perspective...all we need to save all sorts of bullsh!te like the conga line is a set course time out of the stack.
Naturally you will have to talk to far greater minds than mine as to why that can't be done. The problem certainly isn't with the AUE controllers not wanting it.
Just as an aside...don't bother asking for EATs...UAE control can't give them unless we are given them by Dubai...and they don't.
We can give you a stack departure time, if we have the time and enough staff to work it out with the ever changing requirements imposed upon us by DXB approach. What happens after the transfer and the length of the conga line is entirely up to them.
I do understand your frustration, imagine ours when we have to vector, hold, and speed control dozens of aircraft, to hear DXB give "direct no speed" on first contact.
Just remember to think happy thoughts, and all that extra time is getting your hours up
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Prowler and TinBullet
All these things we refer to e.g. the MAXMO flow restriction, the changing of inbound spacing, the sporadic RANBI flow control is covered by the Letter Of Agreement (LOA) or by PANS-ATM/ATCIs. Just read your documents carefully and all will be revealed. However, reading is one thing. Taking cognitive notice and applying might be a bridge too far.
As for your "birds of a feather" comment. Sorry, I'm stumped. Care to elaborate?
I am completely aware of the fact that DXB airport has no flow restriction. You have to keep in mind that UAE ACC is not DXB airport. We are an autonomous unit with our own rules and do not fall under your jurisdiction. Unfortunately these rules impact up and down the line. ACC has restrictions placed on them by all the sectors around the FIR. Subsequently these restrictions reach you. If you think these restrictions are a pissing contest, you must be very naive.
It is not a case of calling up and imposing the MAXMO outbound flow. This restriction is in place 24 hours a day as per LOA (again, go read). So when you end up with five at the holding point with five minute departure spacing, it is of your own doing.
What is rather peculiar is that your A-watch seems to grasp this flow restriction quite well. As for B- and E-watch, they still struggle a bit with this concept.
Cue the Pavlovian response.
All these things we refer to e.g. the MAXMO flow restriction, the changing of inbound spacing, the sporadic RANBI flow control is covered by the Letter Of Agreement (LOA) or by PANS-ATM/ATCIs. Just read your documents carefully and all will be revealed. However, reading is one thing. Taking cognitive notice and applying might be a bridge too far.
As for your "birds of a feather" comment. Sorry, I'm stumped. Care to elaborate?
DO you think it makes sense to call & impose a Flow on MAXMO Especially, when we have no flows
It is not a case of calling up and imposing the MAXMO outbound flow. This restriction is in place 24 hours a day as per LOA (again, go read). So when you end up with five at the holding point with five minute departure spacing, it is of your own doing.
What is rather peculiar is that your A-watch seems to grasp this flow restriction quite well. As for B- and E-watch, they still struggle a bit with this concept.
Maybe it's our end of the month 'pay-cheque' that INSTIGATES animosity
Last edited by VoxPopuli; 12th Apr 2008 at 09:17.
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Animosity!
I think foxxy summed it up in his first post. The system, airspace and procedures are absolutely c..p. Its all this which brings up all the animosity.There is something however which I noticed here that most people think he is a better controller than the other guy in the next AREA/APP sector which I simply cannot put down. I have worked in other places and there is no way any controller will not try to help or overlook mistakes by the sector handing off traffic. We all do mistakes and sometimes we don't do our job 100% as well as we should. But pointing to this and that and saying watches dont grap concepts etc certainly don't make any sense neither pointing fingers or all this hostility. I had instances where I had my seperations measured by the accepting sector to see if they were exactly by the book or else get reported/suspended and that really pi..ed me off. Still I manage to work with controllers (both in Dubai and UAE) who like me, simply like to do their job as best as possible, overlooking small mistakes and helping whenever they can. Now these people make my job much easier and are simply the best!! 
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As a Muscat controller, I'm with those who say that our airspace and procedures are long overdue for a complete overhaul. We should have had a think tank established about 10 years ago to ensure that we're ahead of the game. As it is, I'm fairly suspicious that we won't be able to catch up with the growth in traffic anyway, so let's just rearrange the deckchairs and fiddle while the thing burns. 
It's hard putting together a long sequence into Dubai, knowing full well that the UAE centre is going to be set up and not knowing when the call is going to come saying that no more traffic can be accepted and then having to set up ad hoc holding patterns on our side of the boundary.
That said, there's no excuse for the slanging going on here. Apart from a few prima donnas, most ATCOs are just trying to do their best. We are all under pressure and we all need to put ourselves in the other guy's shoes as much as we can. Spending some time at another unit is always a good way of seeing through anothers' eyes and personal relationships are great for softening some of the comms that go on. It's too easy to shout at someone you don't know.
We're a big team, guys and gals, regardless of where the ACC lines fall.
Take care out there
It's hard putting together a long sequence into Dubai, knowing full well that the UAE centre is going to be set up and not knowing when the call is going to come saying that no more traffic can be accepted and then having to set up ad hoc holding patterns on our side of the boundary.
That said, there's no excuse for the slanging going on here. Apart from a few prima donnas, most ATCOs are just trying to do their best. We are all under pressure and we all need to put ourselves in the other guy's shoes as much as we can. Spending some time at another unit is always a good way of seeing through anothers' eyes and personal relationships are great for softening some of the comms that go on. It's too easy to shout at someone you don't know.
We're a big team, guys and gals, regardless of where the ACC lines fall.
Take care out there
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Voxpopuli
Who ever said that imposing the restrictions was a pissing contest? If you assumed that we think so, then YOU ARE the one WHO IS NAIVE....
Do you think it's WISE or Professional to mention 'Watches'?? I DON'T THINK SO! And don't you think there's always a reason why some of our 'Watches do not cooperate with some of your 'Watches'?
And we aint getting 'happy' if one of you guys down in AUH ACC are 'sweating'...afterall we all do when the heat is on!
Why don't you try to convince GCAA so that you can get rid of the HOLDS? It would make life easier for BOTH, & less chit-chat & pointing fingers here!
Show us, how "far can you go"..........
If you think these restrictions are a pissing contest, you must be very naive.
What is rather peculiar is that your A-watch seems to grasp this flow restriction quite well. As for B- and E-watch, they still struggle a bit with this concept.
And we aint getting 'happy' if one of you guys down in AUH ACC are 'sweating'...afterall we all do when the heat is on!
Why don't you try to convince GCAA so that you can get rid of the HOLDS? It would make life easier for BOTH, & less chit-chat & pointing fingers here!
Show us, how "far can you go"..........
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Sorry to say that it is common knowledge that when you deal with DXB you are dealing with 5 separate units operating under the same umbrella.
Standardisation between the watches would be a great starting point and easily achieved by ensuring you never returned to the same watch after leave.
Standardisation between the watches would be a great starting point and easily achieved by ensuring you never returned to the same watch after leave.
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The handbags are out again.......such fun!!!!!
This thread is an annual occurence, the search function is your friend. No one is helping their reputations on here.......get back to blaming pilots, it's what we do best
This thread is an annual occurence, the search function is your friend. No one is helping their reputations on here.......get back to blaming pilots, it's what we do best
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First I must say that working at a smaller procedural unit to the north of the Emirates I think that both DXB and ACC controllers does a great job to keep the traffic flowing... But since this is a thread with complaints I wish that the guys to my south would learn how to calculate an estimate, and realize that '100 miles to run' is not something to base procedural separations on... especially when the aircraft is 30 minutes early or late on his estimate :/
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Do you think it's WISE or Professional to mention 'Watches'?? I DON'T THINK SO! And don't you think there's always a reason why some of our 'Watches do not cooperate with some of your 'Watches'?
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Voxpopuli
It goes BOTH ways.....
Some of our 'watches' can be more flexible than others, & it's not much different from your watches down in ACC!.....Don't you agree?
At least, we do not have people calling & measuring the distance of one's separation, to be followed with reporting action.......
Although I must say, this reporting attitude sucks all around the M.E.....
Some of our 'watches' can be more flexible than others, & it's not much different from your watches down in ACC!.....Don't you agree?
At least, we do not have people calling & measuring the distance of one's separation, to be followed with reporting action.......
Although I must say, this reporting attitude sucks all around the M.E.....
Last edited by Tin-Bullet; 15th Apr 2008 at 10:28.
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Tin, I fully agree that the ACC noses aren't always clean. The only time we measure APP separations is when you transfer them to ACC, 6 miles apart, same level with 60 knots worth of closing. And I'm not pulling it from under my seat. Although I sometimes pull my seat back out after that.
Having said all that I said on this thread, I still think that the airlines are their own worst enemy. I mean, how much money does it cost us to watch traffic hold for twenty minutes or more? That's right, NOT A FU....N PENNY.
Open skies = open wallet.
Having said all that I said on this thread, I still think that the airlines are their own worst enemy. I mean, how much money does it cost us to watch traffic hold for twenty minutes or more? That's right, NOT A FU....N PENNY.
Open skies = open wallet.
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Well Vox if you do measure separations as you say you do then yes you have every right but I am referring to a particular incident (without being too specific) that happened on our watch where a particular separation was measured on two aircraft with completely diverging tracks on a basis that the handover was not completely clean.(recordings were seen and it was eventually clean as soap!) At no point there was going to be a reducing separation (on the contrary). This was for me an attempt to nail someone from our side on a technicality by one particular ACC supervisor who we know well and who thinks ATC was invented downunder so he is always in the right!!! Like you said we don't really give a dead trout about how much holding there is or how much fuel is wasted, we do our jobs as efficiently as possible and helping out each other even you guys at ACC whenever possible. This means that we do not measure the spacing you give nor if there is a chance of a reduced separation. We just deal with it and thats the way it goes! I am sure most of you think the same way.
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Wow. It's so 'refreshing' to read that not only is the airspace poorly designed and the co-ordination poor, but the controllers handling my flight also malice each other and get into childish pprune fights. I guess at this rate it's not going to get better anytime soon.
What I want to know is:
What I want to know is:
- How much does a PDC system cost, and how come DXB don't have one yet?
- Why do I have to make a 15 second initial call that takes a one good breath (and gets stepped on half the time) to DXB APP with information that is already on your flight strip (STAR) and ATIS ID(QNH)?
- Do you have a position of Flow Control and does EK have an ATC Liaison that works with you during busy times?
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at this rate it's not going to get better anytime soon
How much does a PDC system cost, and how come DXB don't have one yet?
rrr sorry PDC what??!!? Dubai doesn't even have a decent Radar system. The current one is only interim (has been there for three years and will continue in the forseable future) with no alarms, no saftey nets, nothing. I bet Burkina Faso (all due respect gents down there) have a better system than this.
Why do I have to make a 15 second initial call that takes a one good breath (and gets stepped on half the time) to DXB APP with information that is already on your flight strip (STAR) and ATIS ID(QNH)?
Do you have a position of Flow Control and does EK have an ATC Liaison that works with you during busy times?
You guys flying with EK should take some time to visit us some time soon to see the other side of the story. There are special forms available at OPS which you can fill up and have a jolly good look at what goes on on the other side of the frequency. Your presence at the ATC ops room is always welcome!