New rostering rules at EK
Join Date: Mar 2005
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In a year when EK needs 50 pilots a month it's hard to understand their thinking.
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Anybody think this has less to do with disparity in the top/bottom bids, and more to do with the disparity in the training vs line pilot roster? This may stop guys from leaving training to enjoy day off strings and may even entice some to join since they are getting a crap roster anyway. Sounds like one of EK managements think outside the box "cost neutral" solutions...
Whatever their motivation, this is a bad idea and will haunt them far worse and longer than their previous cost neutral forays.
Have to go and prepare my CV.
Whatever their motivation, this is a bad idea and will haunt them far worse and longer than their previous cost neutral forays.
Have to go and prepare my CV.
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Heard they want to pay more to new joiners without paying the rest of the crews....
Answer.......... put the initial furnishing allowance up to 100K DHS and give em an empty villa. Of course must stay 3 years or pay it back pro- rata.
Answer.......... put the initial furnishing allowance up to 100K DHS and give em an empty villa. Of course must stay 3 years or pay it back pro- rata.
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One consistency about this ruling.
Every pilot appears to see it as an ill conceived and poorly implemented alteration to our rostering. Does anyone support this venture?
There will be an impact; sickness, unavailability on days off, resignations, reduced uptake of contract offers. Of course it won't be identified as a tangible connection by the 9th floor.
Cost neutral, not a chance. Shame that everyone has to lose though.
Every pilot appears to see it as an ill conceived and poorly implemented alteration to our rostering. Does anyone support this venture?
There will be an impact; sickness, unavailability on days off, resignations, reduced uptake of contract offers. Of course it won't be identified as a tangible connection by the 9th floor.
Cost neutral, not a chance. Shame that everyone has to lose though.
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To the management
TO THE MANAGEMENT
When I first joined Emirates,it was one of the happiest moments of my life.However yesterday I felt that the airline I was so proud to be part off,let me and many of my fellow colleagues down.
I ask off you not to go through this MONSTROUS CRS bidding change just because some bureaucratic a
le wants to win the golden najm award.Because this is what this is about-not safety or equal flying hours as you say.Its NOTHING to do with productivity!
We all look forward to our top bid months,especially during the summer months,where we can bid for days off and visit our home countries.And we know that when we are bottom bid we have to fly.It has been a fair and accepted system for some time now.
I dont understand your reasoning:We CAN be productive with the existing system-somebody can fly 2 JFK'S and 2 LHR'S(thats 87hrs aprx)and CAN get his string of days off.I dont see WHY this is a problem!
An office guy does not have to fly in a cylinder can for 15hrs at North 80 and different time zones which make you forget your own name and date at the end of the month.We NEED the days off-HE/SHE DOESNT!!!
Emirates is the best airline to work for-DONT make it the worst!
Many of my friends have been very interested in joining EK,UNTIL YESTERDAY.They are awaiting for your actions,as many of us are,to decide.
I believe that if you implement your suggestions it will have a disastrous effect on the lifes of the flight deck crew and their families and eventually on the company itself.
If you need to attract more people,dont be stingy-GIVE and they will come.
I do hope that you will reason and listen to all of us who are asking you not to go through with this.(everybody,please send an email to management through the crew portal expressing your thoughts).
Regards
When I first joined Emirates,it was one of the happiest moments of my life.However yesterday I felt that the airline I was so proud to be part off,let me and many of my fellow colleagues down.
I ask off you not to go through this MONSTROUS CRS bidding change just because some bureaucratic a
le wants to win the golden najm award.Because this is what this is about-not safety or equal flying hours as you say.Its NOTHING to do with productivity!We all look forward to our top bid months,especially during the summer months,where we can bid for days off and visit our home countries.And we know that when we are bottom bid we have to fly.It has been a fair and accepted system for some time now.
I dont understand your reasoning:We CAN be productive with the existing system-somebody can fly 2 JFK'S and 2 LHR'S(thats 87hrs aprx)and CAN get his string of days off.I dont see WHY this is a problem!
An office guy does not have to fly in a cylinder can for 15hrs at North 80 and different time zones which make you forget your own name and date at the end of the month.We NEED the days off-HE/SHE DOESNT!!!
Emirates is the best airline to work for-DONT make it the worst!
Many of my friends have been very interested in joining EK,UNTIL YESTERDAY.They are awaiting for your actions,as many of us are,to decide.
I believe that if you implement your suggestions it will have a disastrous effect on the lifes of the flight deck crew and their families and eventually on the company itself.
If you need to attract more people,dont be stingy-GIVE and they will come.
I do hope that you will reason and listen to all of us who are asking you not to go through with this.(everybody,please send an email to management through the crew portal expressing your thoughts).
Regards
Last edited by unipilot; 10th Feb 2008 at 04:28.
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Another "life-quality deteriorating" decision. One aim, yes, productivity.
Other airlines may use the same tactics, but, if you're based close to your home land, 4 or 5 days off is enough to go home and get re-sourced. But when you live far away, this is a major blow.
CRS Adopt was designed to function adequately when opposed and limited by a pilot's union.
When left in the hands of uncontrolled managment, it could cause serious harm or even death by fatigue to the users. Do not operate heavy machinery when under it's uncontrolled influence.
Will this management style always be rewarded here?
When are we gonna see at least a sign of REAL improvement?
Unipilot, I understand what you mean...keep posting.
Other airlines may use the same tactics, but, if you're based close to your home land, 4 or 5 days off is enough to go home and get re-sourced. But when you live far away, this is a major blow.
CRS Adopt was designed to function adequately when opposed and limited by a pilot's union.
When left in the hands of uncontrolled managment, it could cause serious harm or even death by fatigue to the users. Do not operate heavy machinery when under it's uncontrolled influence.
Will this management style always be rewarded here?
When are we gonna see at least a sign of REAL improvement?
Unipilot, I understand what you mean...keep posting.
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Fellas, I have to say I agree with most of the posts here. The thing is it aint gonna do sh!t in helping out our situation. We have no way of putting any kind of real pressure on the "team" short of quiting or attempting to disuade future applicants from joining.
How about we try and come up with ways of putting real and tangible monetary pressure on the talking horse and the rest of those greedy jokers. The only way they will change is if it costs them huge money. By huge I mean 100's of millions. They have to be made to understand that without us they can not make any money. Anything short of that can and will be "managed" by the guys who make the big bucks.
7
How about we try and come up with ways of putting real and tangible monetary pressure on the talking horse and the rest of those greedy jokers. The only way they will change is if it costs them huge money. By huge I mean 100's of millions. They have to be made to understand that without us they can not make any money. Anything short of that can and will be "managed" by the guys who make the big bucks.
7
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What you guys need to do, is form a virtual union. I know unions are not allowed in the UAE, however something could be formed here or elsewhere on the net and "collective idea's" put forth. Just be careful. My former employer gave us a hard time on this, many years back. Fly by the book, carry extra gas, fly fast, lower the gear early, fly off optimum altitude and on. There must be some Aussie's and Yank's there with Union experience. Down line sick or fatigue calls could kill an operation. Everyone must grow a set and participate so that no prisoners are taken
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Jammin' pprune!
Well this management email certainly generated some pprune traffic!!! - only saw this many posts when the BA 777 punched in!!
Once again many theories about the logic of this action - most probably some basis in fact for all.
Unfortunately many of you have not had your work ethic tested enough obviously...!
I will reserve my judgment as to how this will work out - I suspect not in any way that relates to the stated objectives by Ed.
But hey, all ya have to do to get plenty of time off is hurt your self kite surfing, riding motorbikes or knock ya self out playing football. The clinic are excellent at giving time off!
The Cathay/Dragonair guys discovered this thing called 'affected syndrome'
Apparently works a treat...
Don't like the roster? - Adjust it using any means you are happy with. It's the Company's 'flight plan' - not the 'post flight report'!
Can't put any positive spin on it but the earlier comment that nothing was done after in excess of 50 ASRs on the Perth curtains - which continue to go on....and the use of a seat to gain rest etc... but we all know that safety and standards has no influence on decisions made in higher management.
Otherwise we wouldn't be doing stupid Peleysis and leadership courses that teach nothing but how to press a mouse button!
But they all come and go...and not many leave with a legacy of having made any improvement for the Company's real bottom line.
Rather than throw this at us why not ask us if we are happy with the way things are reference CRS and rostering via some form of constructive and consultative process...... hmmm sounds like democracy .... cant be having that now..!
Really feel sorry for the guys looking to come over here.
It's a shame that the mere mention of the word 'basings' would solve ALL of EKs current and future manning requirements.. panacea - maybe!
maybe email ed with the phrase 'basings ' in the subject line - no body and see what happens?
woodja.
Once again many theories about the logic of this action - most probably some basis in fact for all.
Unfortunately many of you have not had your work ethic tested enough obviously...!
I will reserve my judgment as to how this will work out - I suspect not in any way that relates to the stated objectives by Ed.
But hey, all ya have to do to get plenty of time off is hurt your self kite surfing, riding motorbikes or knock ya self out playing football. The clinic are excellent at giving time off!
The Cathay/Dragonair guys discovered this thing called 'affected syndrome'
Apparently works a treat...
Don't like the roster? - Adjust it using any means you are happy with. It's the Company's 'flight plan' - not the 'post flight report'!
Can't put any positive spin on it but the earlier comment that nothing was done after in excess of 50 ASRs on the Perth curtains - which continue to go on....and the use of a seat to gain rest etc... but we all know that safety and standards has no influence on decisions made in higher management.
Otherwise we wouldn't be doing stupid Peleysis and leadership courses that teach nothing but how to press a mouse button!
But they all come and go...and not many leave with a legacy of having made any improvement for the Company's real bottom line.
Rather than throw this at us why not ask us if we are happy with the way things are reference CRS and rostering via some form of constructive and consultative process...... hmmm sounds like democracy .... cant be having that now..!
Really feel sorry for the guys looking to come over here.
It's a shame that the mere mention of the word 'basings' would solve ALL of EKs current and future manning requirements.. panacea - maybe!
maybe email ed with the phrase 'basings ' in the subject line - no body and see what happens?
woodja.
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Ladies 'n Gents
The consequences a this are not apparent to fleet manglement, nor the senior partners, but it's devastatin' to morale in way that is more severe 'n any fatigue...
The audacity of this lie staggers ma mind. I been sucker punched before but this is real dirty...
Just readin' the memo made me feel like I'd just got back from a GRU... it's just so deflatin'...
The foundation of this is a manpower shortage, and it's compounded by a certain person who can't stan' tha sight of a block with 16 days off... mean spirited, petty and envious, this 'farkin-over' in the guise of concern has just cost this company more than he can imagine.
PPPpppSSSsss...
hear that Adel, Alan, Ed, Patricia, and Jim?
That's the sound of morale, good will an' any form a belief in you folks just leakin' out onta the sand.
Way ta go ya dummies. Ya shure 'fixed' it this time!
k-o-t-s
The consequences a this are not apparent to fleet manglement, nor the senior partners, but it's devastatin' to morale in way that is more severe 'n any fatigue...
The audacity of this lie staggers ma mind. I been sucker punched before but this is real dirty...
Just readin' the memo made me feel like I'd just got back from a GRU... it's just so deflatin'...
The foundation of this is a manpower shortage, and it's compounded by a certain person who can't stan' tha sight of a block with 16 days off... mean spirited, petty and envious, this 'farkin-over' in the guise of concern has just cost this company more than he can imagine.
PPPpppSSSsss...
hear that Adel, Alan, Ed, Patricia, and Jim?
That's the sound of morale, good will an' any form a belief in you folks just leakin' out onta the sand.
Way ta go ya dummies. Ya shure 'fixed' it this time!
k-o-t-s
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Enough!!
Been reading without posting for a couple of years now, and i must say this last stunt performed by the "management" is one of the most stupidest moves i've ever seen!!
Messing with our only "lifeline" to the real world outside was a big mistake! Days off, layovers and vacationplanning in the 2 top grps is probably the #1 thing that keeps ppl here. And now its gone.
Its cooking and boiling out on the lines now. This is not going to be forgotten. Guess the "management" didn't realize the impact of their "latest improvment". If they found it hard to keep pilots here and get new pilots coming before, guesswhat - this wont help!
Forming a web-based union??? Nice idea!! Where do i sign?? (Not on a asr or vr anyway, it never helps!)
Enough!!
Messing with our only "lifeline" to the real world outside was a big mistake! Days off, layovers and vacationplanning in the 2 top grps is probably the #1 thing that keeps ppl here. And now its gone.
Its cooking and boiling out on the lines now. This is not going to be forgotten. Guess the "management" didn't realize the impact of their "latest improvment". If they found it hard to keep pilots here and get new pilots coming before, guesswhat - this wont help!
Forming a web-based union??? Nice idea!! Where do i sign?? (Not on a asr or vr anyway, it never helps!)
Enough!!
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No Problem - Sir!?
Just looked at the Seniority List. Conventional wisdom is a need for 500-600 additional bodies required in '08. The net increase for January '08 was 25. 50-60% of the month-on-month target.
As usual nobody is telling the truth. From the guy pumping gas all the way up to VP's at EK nobody in Dubai is willing to say that they made a mistake at work. History has shown that fear (job loss, villa loss, kid's school loss, company car loss, deportation home to what?) is an effective short term management tool but has always had calamitous long term results.
Given the fact that they may be 250-300 short at year end '08 I tend to believe that 1000 hours and factoring for operating crews will be back.
BTW where is Ed's other letter? Last year we got early notification of the amended package. This year ---- silence. I am anticipating that it will be underwhelming otherwise they would publish it early in order to aid recruiting which is, I believe, the real problem here.
Scaglietti
As usual nobody is telling the truth. From the guy pumping gas all the way up to VP's at EK nobody in Dubai is willing to say that they made a mistake at work. History has shown that fear (job loss, villa loss, kid's school loss, company car loss, deportation home to what?) is an effective short term management tool but has always had calamitous long term results.
Given the fact that they may be 250-300 short at year end '08 I tend to believe that 1000 hours and factoring for operating crews will be back.
BTW where is Ed's other letter? Last year we got early notification of the amended package. This year ---- silence. I am anticipating that it will be underwhelming otherwise they would publish it early in order to aid recruiting which is, I believe, the real problem here.
Scaglietti
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What about a class action lawsuit from some country where we fly to. If we had a thousand unidentified pilots suing because of the shortfall in contractural leave, we would probably be mentioned in a few newpapers.
7
7
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Don't pin your hopes on a large pay rise. If people aren't leaving then there's no reason to splash the cash.
Revised estimates for 2008 is nearer 400 Pilots than the 550 earlier forcast but with the ERP shambles and the bid system now buggered, the nexy 12 months will be very interesting. It is simply supply and demand and the Company is still winning on that front. Just!
I just hope that everyone who's taken the time to moan here has spent equal time writing to their respective fleet managers.
BYMONEK
P.s TangoUniform. You've been dusting off that CV of yours for the last 3 years mate. Actions speak louder than words.
Revised estimates for 2008 is nearer 400 Pilots than the 550 earlier forcast but with the ERP shambles and the bid system now buggered, the nexy 12 months will be very interesting. It is simply supply and demand and the Company is still winning on that front. Just!
I just hope that everyone who's taken the time to moan here has spent equal time writing to their respective fleet managers.
BYMONEK
P.s TangoUniform. You've been dusting off that CV of yours for the last 3 years mate. Actions speak louder than words.
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We need 550.
We won't get 550 either through the door or the training system hence the revised estimate of 400 forced on the company due to lack of planning/foresight/expertise.
400 can only be achieved by increasing the workload (if that's possible) and f**king around with the rosters/bidding.
We won't get 550 either through the door or the training system hence the revised estimate of 400 forced on the company due to lack of planning/foresight/expertise.
400 can only be achieved by increasing the workload (if that's possible) and f**king around with the rosters/bidding.
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I'm surprised that no one has figured out just how brilliant this move is. In one fell swoop they have solved the training load issue (fewer pilots to train - no more shortage of trainers) and the manning issue (more productivity). I'm sure that the architects of this latest fiasco are already counting their bonus money.
As a large portion of EK pilots have been here a relatively short time, there are a few things they need to understand. This company cannot leave well enough alone. Just when you think that you have found some kind of accommodation living in Dubai, working the fatiguing rosters, dealing with the traffic, the company turns around and fks with you. It may not be the straw that breaks your camels back by itself but it pisses you off. Fast forward and you again come to terms with living and working here - you think that things are bearable and lo and behold, here they come again. Spend enough time here and the cumulative effect is to produce one of those whinging old timers that so annoy some of our newer members. ("If you don't like it - leave.") Well, congratulations, you have just been fed with.
As far as virtual unions, work to rule and WOE's go, good luck. The only thing that the company will respond to is pilots not showing up and pilots leaving and don't be surprised if you find yourself training a new hire who makes more than you - they've done it before. In a place where unions are outlawed and where the labor laws exist only to reinforce the skewed playing field of employer/employee relations, there is some truth to the admonition above. The minute TC and AAR get the slightest inkling of any type of organized effort, they'll be flying extra sections just to take out the deportees.
As a large portion of EK pilots have been here a relatively short time, there are a few things they need to understand. This company cannot leave well enough alone. Just when you think that you have found some kind of accommodation living in Dubai, working the fatiguing rosters, dealing with the traffic, the company turns around and f
ks with you. It may not be the straw that breaks your camels back by itself but it pisses you off. Fast forward and you again come to terms with living and working here - you think that things are bearable and lo and behold, here they come again. Spend enough time here and the cumulative effect is to produce one of those whinging old timers that so annoy some of our newer members. ("If you don't like it - leave.") Well, congratulations, you have just been fed with. As far as virtual unions, work to rule and WOE's go, good luck. The only thing that the company will respond to is pilots not showing up and pilots leaving and don't be surprised if you find yourself training a new hire who makes more than you - they've done it before. In a place where unions are outlawed and where the labor laws exist only to reinforce the skewed playing field of employer/employee relations, there is some truth to the admonition above. The minute TC and AAR get the slightest inkling of any type of organized effort, they'll be flying extra sections just to take out the deportees.
Last edited by Gillegan; 10th Feb 2008 at 13:15.