Silly rest periods in IAH (EK)
short flights long nights
as it should be.......
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Gee Fatbus sounds like a hell roster.Was that 8 Moscows in a row to do 80 hours in 8 days?I'm suprised thats legal.Especially when you are so senior.You
must have been bottom bid.
must have been bottom bid.
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Dear managers
Yes, i mean you TC, AAR, AS and ED, as well as the so called "doctors" of our clinic (and you nice office cushion warmers, once you are nicely installed, around 9:30am and reading pprune, with the next coffee for the boss, please bring along this letter instead of posing as a happy pilot).
As long as you have not accompanied us on a 211 enlarging crew, trying to sleep at 10am, eating whenever the understaffed cc can hand you a delicious crew-meal, drinking the recommended 3 litres throughout the flight, then queing in economy with zillions of fine pax from the subcontinent doing their monthly hygiene in our toilets, trying then to make it back to the cockpit, trying again to get some rest in the noisy hotel, doing the same thing back just 24 hours later, while at every manoeuver joining us in the cockpit and completing a simple tetris-game on your fancy blackberry and getting scared s##tless about your performance at the end of the flight .......
then getting well deserved little days off and doing a beatiful 203 accompaning a cabin crew with all her functions and rest possibilites and at the end of the flight still smiling politely at any silly pax request .....
As long as you have not demonstrated such a solidarity act, anything coming out of your feathers must be discarded as junk mail, as it has no relevance to us.
Get real, you KNOW it's unsafe
Yes, i mean you TC, AAR, AS and ED, as well as the so called "doctors" of our clinic (and you nice office cushion warmers, once you are nicely installed, around 9:30am and reading pprune, with the next coffee for the boss, please bring along this letter instead of posing as a happy pilot).
As long as you have not accompanied us on a 211 enlarging crew, trying to sleep at 10am, eating whenever the understaffed cc can hand you a delicious crew-meal, drinking the recommended 3 litres throughout the flight, then queing in economy with zillions of fine pax from the subcontinent doing their monthly hygiene in our toilets, trying then to make it back to the cockpit, trying again to get some rest in the noisy hotel, doing the same thing back just 24 hours later, while at every manoeuver joining us in the cockpit and completing a simple tetris-game on your fancy blackberry and getting scared s##tless about your performance at the end of the flight .......
then getting well deserved little days off and doing a beatiful 203 accompaning a cabin crew with all her functions and rest possibilites and at the end of the flight still smiling politely at any silly pax request .....
As long as you have not demonstrated such a solidarity act, anything coming out of your feathers must be discarded as junk mail, as it has no relevance to us.
Get real, you KNOW it's unsafe
All pilots should go to the American Embassy and ask to have there US visa cancelled. Then tell the company you will not be able to fly us flights and have no intention of doing so until the rest period is increased. Remember its your ass is you screw up, the company will not protect you, as far as they are concerned they are running a legal operation.
Is it possibble to publish the ULH rules from proper airlines to compare with EK, maybe then we can approach the FAA and GCAA and ask why EK has a big discrepancy with other carriers.
Also the newspapers may like to publish the comparison for the passengers benefit.
Is it possibble to publish the ULH rules from proper airlines to compare with EK, maybe then we can approach the FAA and GCAA and ask why EK has a big discrepancy with other carriers.
Also the newspapers may like to publish the comparison for the passengers benefit.
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fatbus, can I be allowed a guess at your non-proone name? Could it be "Life of ...." followed by "nautical ....." ?
Whatever it is, you're certainly not a line pilot.
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Oh, and SOPS... I have to agree that the Boeing Crew Rest Area you so kindly put into your post for everyone to see is superb. It's just a pity that that the crew rest EK provides for its tech crew bears absolutely no resemblance to that, and nor is it positioned anywhere near the front of the aircraft. Picture the AFT torpedo stowage of a World War One submarine built for Lilliputians and you might get some idea of the EK model.
Whatever it is, you're certainly not a line pilot.
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Oh, and SOPS... I have to agree that the Boeing Crew Rest Area you so kindly put into your post for everyone to see is superb. It's just a pity that that the crew rest EK provides for its tech crew bears absolutely no resemblance to that, and nor is it positioned anywhere near the front of the aircraft. Picture the AFT torpedo stowage of a World War One submarine built for Lilliputians and you might get some idea of the EK model.
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Picture the AFT torpedo stowage of a World War One submarine built for Lilliputians
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Just my 5 fils worth again...
It may be all well and good for the few people who can get suitable rest for 7 hours in a cramped bunk at 10am. Good on you, but I'm pretty sure you're in the minority. Think about the rest of crew. I'm guessing but suspect perhaps 80% of the rest of the crew don't achieve anywhere near that much rest.I personally am lucky to get 2 to 3 hours rest, regardless of the time of the day. And what about the cabin crew? 1st class crew may be lucky to get a good break, but the rest normally get about 4 hours total. And they're working bloody hard on those sectors. The passengers seem like they haven't eaten in days!
So essentially, you may be well rested, but you're probably surrounded by other crew members on the brink of making some fatigue induced mistakes. Are you happy with that?
I remember when we used to do the SIN-SYD-SIN slingshot. Night both ways, 12hrs rest at the noisy SYD airport hotel during the day. (as usual, EK exemption to break the 10hrs flight time in 24hrs rule) On departure from SYD, when I hit the TOGA buttons, there was an almighty crash in the front galley..someone had forgotten to secure one of the trolleys..crockery all over the floor. Almost caused a reject. Many other small errors on that particular flight put down to fatigue.
I'm afraid simply stating that you can cope, (and therefore that everyone else is a whimp), certainly doesn't promote the interests of CRM, passenger safety and flight safely in general.
It may be all well and good for the few people who can get suitable rest for 7 hours in a cramped bunk at 10am. Good on you, but I'm pretty sure you're in the minority. Think about the rest of crew. I'm guessing but suspect perhaps 80% of the rest of the crew don't achieve anywhere near that much rest.I personally am lucky to get 2 to 3 hours rest, regardless of the time of the day. And what about the cabin crew? 1st class crew may be lucky to get a good break, but the rest normally get about 4 hours total. And they're working bloody hard on those sectors. The passengers seem like they haven't eaten in days!
So essentially, you may be well rested, but you're probably surrounded by other crew members on the brink of making some fatigue induced mistakes. Are you happy with that?
I remember when we used to do the SIN-SYD-SIN slingshot. Night both ways, 12hrs rest at the noisy SYD airport hotel during the day. (as usual, EK exemption to break the 10hrs flight time in 24hrs rule) On departure from SYD, when I hit the TOGA buttons, there was an almighty crash in the front galley..someone had forgotten to secure one of the trolleys..crockery all over the floor. Almost caused a reject. Many other small errors on that particular flight put down to fatigue.
I'm afraid simply stating that you can cope, (and therefore that everyone else is a whimp), certainly doesn't promote the interests of CRM, passenger safety and flight safely in general.
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The rest facilities for pilots on EK777s are sub-standard, disrespectful and quite frankly are a '**** you' to the pilots from the company.
Having said that whining on prune about it is unlikely to get any results (irrespective of whether management actually read these threads or not). In the absence of any representative group to make a collective approach to the company it is up to the individual to write and/or speak with management to voice your concerns.
Ultimately if you are one of those who cannot get rest it becomes a matter of flight safety.
As a minimum we should have 2 business class seats blocked for our use on ULR flights.
Having said that whining on prune about it is unlikely to get any results (irrespective of whether management actually read these threads or not). In the absence of any representative group to make a collective approach to the company it is up to the individual to write and/or speak with management to voice your concerns.
Ultimately if you are one of those who cannot get rest it becomes a matter of flight safety.
As a minimum we should have 2 business class seats blocked for our use on ULR flights.
To all the heroes who can achieve decent levels of rest in the Boing crew rest, you must be superhuman and far superior to the rest of us mere mortals.
This IAH pattern will lead to a serious incident, unless we get a minimum of 48hrs+ off in IAH. I have done the GRU once, and that was enough, i cannot get up at 6am local (dxb), get on the plane, go straight into the most uncomfortable bunks, and achieve any sort of decent rest. It is simply not possible, and if your telling me you can, BS.
The original forward bunks were junked by EK, because TC wanted the First Class suites to have headroom, and a feeling of space. They have achieved the latter at the expense of safety. The rear 777 bunks are crap, uncomfortable, you have to lie down, the noise is bad, you cannot watch the TV for more than an hour, your neck hurts. Read a book, forget it, not feasible
I don't mind JFK's, they are just about do able, but any further, no thanks with current conditions. I will be filing ASR' s every IAH, GRU, f**k em.
EGGW
This IAH pattern will lead to a serious incident, unless we get a minimum of 48hrs+ off in IAH. I have done the GRU once, and that was enough, i cannot get up at 6am local (dxb), get on the plane, go straight into the most uncomfortable bunks, and achieve any sort of decent rest. It is simply not possible, and if your telling me you can, BS.
The original forward bunks were junked by EK, because TC wanted the First Class suites to have headroom, and a feeling of space. They have achieved the latter at the expense of safety. The rear 777 bunks are crap, uncomfortable, you have to lie down, the noise is bad, you cannot watch the TV for more than an hour, your neck hurts. Read a book, forget it, not feasible
I don't mind JFK's, they are just about do able, but any further, no thanks with current conditions. I will be filing ASR' s every IAH, GRU, f**k em.EGGW
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Well, TCs greed might have f##cked him up anyway. With the bunk in the rear there is no way EK can ever operate with only one captain and two fos for shorter trips. I know they tried, but it is illegal according GCAA. So they need to block 1 F or two C seats. A loss both ways, salary wise or pax wise. How easy and finally cheaper would it have been to buy the aircraft as it was initially designed.....
Sure enough they might convince the incompetent local talent for a exemption one day, but that will be the straw to brake their favorite camels back. I don't think that any sane captain will accept rest so far away, and if any foreign regulator gets a sniff of it, this might do it for once. Or even they lose face.
Sure enough they might convince the incompetent local talent for a exemption one day, but that will be the straw to brake their favorite camels back. I don't think that any sane captain will accept rest so far away, and if any foreign regulator gets a sniff of it, this might do it for once. Or even they lose face.
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there is no way EK can ever operate with only one captain and two fos for shorter trips.
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Nagoya, Osaka also one skipper, 2 F/O's with crew bunks at the back on 345
Don't know where the illegality is? Do you have a reference to the GCAA regs GMDS just out of interest?
Don't know where the illegality is? Do you have a reference to the GCAA regs GMDS just out of interest?
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Yes, there is a FCI or some other publication regarding this, can't actually pinpoint it. No crewbunk away from the cockpit is accepted. There has to be a seat right behind the cockpit, either 1F or 2C seats.
I'll try to find the instruction, others might confirm this, as it makes ample sense. At least we should enforce this, i certainly will.
I'll try to enquire with GCAA.
I'll try to find the instruction, others might confirm this, as it makes ample sense. At least we should enforce this, i certainly will.
I'll try to enquire with GCAA.
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Has anybody noticed in the FCI regarding "Generic ULR Ops" that it states that the crew will be acclimatized before any ULR flight? If you think about it, that's what the rest of the industry does. EK has chosen to interpret "flight" to mean "pairing". If they followed their own rules, we would have a minimum of 48 hours for IAH and GRU.
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Looks like the 777ER bunks really suck. TC wins once more. Thanks all the tech guys, you sold the pilots down the river again.
The 345 bunks are pretty good thankfully. Wonder what they are going to be like on the 380? Heard they are down the back, anyone know more?
The 345 bunks are pretty good thankfully. Wonder what they are going to be like on the 380? Heard they are down the back, anyone know more?
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For the 380, hammocks.
They were good enough for the lower ranks in Admiral Nelson's days. I believe TC got the idea after watching Russell Crowe in 'Master and Commander'.
He concluded that if crews who'd spent the night sleeping in such conditions for months on end could defeat the Fench in the southern Indian Ocean, his crews could fly across the same ocean resting in the same style of bed.
Cheaper - and lighter - too, so less fuel uplift.
They were good enough for the lower ranks in Admiral Nelson's days. I believe TC got the idea after watching Russell Crowe in 'Master and Commander'.
He concluded that if crews who'd spent the night sleeping in such conditions for months on end could defeat the Fench in the southern Indian Ocean, his crews could fly across the same ocean resting in the same style of bed.
Cheaper - and lighter - too, so less fuel uplift.
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Careful 1011
Yes the A345 Captain's bunk is better than the B777 but be careful not to fall into the carefully prepared trap. The position of the bunk has been an issue with Airbus guys, especially when the crew complement is 1 Captain and 2 F/Os. Just because it's better than the B777 rest doesn't fix the problem and you run the risk of agreeing that something less than ideal becomes the norm because of the even more woeful state of new rest facilities. This could then have a knock-on effect for future aircraft fit-outs.
Last edited by vbrules; 16th Jan 2008 at 05:03.
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Just a thought: has anyone had any official 'yeah or nay' from the likes of Patricia et al about utilising first class (or even biz) seats if they are not sold? Just curious. I have sat in the cabin on both JFK and GRU flights (when trying to sleep was futile) but the cabincrew seem to be under the impression that they are not to be utilised and seem less than keen on the idea.