GF does it again... DECs!!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: MidEast
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GF does it again... DECs!!!
Well, it was too good to be true. All those upgrades on A320 and B767. Explicit commitment from VPO to upgrade from within. Seniority Lists. Temporary captains (which recently got their contract extended until their retirement). And so on.
There`s a full group of prospective B767 DECs in town for assessment. Seems like GF will hire 6 or 8 of them. PLUS one gentleman already hired and well under training on A320. Seems like none of these decisions were published via webmail with a VPO`s signature.
B767 DECs have been a fairly common practice every now and then, so doesn`t cause too much surprise, although definitely causes lots of frustration. BUT A320 DECs is a genuine breakthrough is the last 3-4 years policy. Wonder how many more will come.
Everyone in the region (mainly QR, EK and EY) recruit DECs. Fair enough, they`re expanding at good pace and eventually training cannot cope with upgrades and new hires F/Os. As far as I know, Gulf Air is NOT expanding. We still have 34 planes and not a single order or even LOI or MoU. We also have in-house Sims, now relocated in BAH, no more need to DHD to DOH. So, is there really a need for DECs?
Safe Flights,
JJ
There`s a full group of prospective B767 DECs in town for assessment. Seems like GF will hire 6 or 8 of them. PLUS one gentleman already hired and well under training on A320. Seems like none of these decisions were published via webmail with a VPO`s signature.
B767 DECs have been a fairly common practice every now and then, so doesn`t cause too much surprise, although definitely causes lots of frustration. BUT A320 DECs is a genuine breakthrough is the last 3-4 years policy. Wonder how many more will come.
Everyone in the region (mainly QR, EK and EY) recruit DECs. Fair enough, they`re expanding at good pace and eventually training cannot cope with upgrades and new hires F/Os. As far as I know, Gulf Air is NOT expanding. We still have 34 planes and not a single order or even LOI or MoU. We also have in-house Sims, now relocated in BAH, no more need to DHD to DOH. So, is there really a need for DECs?
Safe Flights,
JJ
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Bahrain
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DEC: unacceptable
Hello there JoeJack,
Unlike DE First Officers, these DECs will block the path to our command and all the promises to upgrade from within were empty words.
It does not surprise me, however. I said in the past that to hire a single direct entry FOs was to take a dangerous path towards DECs and now we see the results.
DEC 320:
Have a look on mygulfair.co and there is a guy who parachuted into the 320 left seat. Who is this guy? Where does he come from? Very high staff number. Local name.
When other airlines in the ME have to cope with expansion hiring DECs, Gulf Air does it for the lack of competence and professionalism.
Do you think VPO or aHOFO are worried about this? Not even an email, habibi....
LNB
Unlike DE First Officers, these DECs will block the path to our command and all the promises to upgrade from within were empty words.
It does not surprise me, however. I said in the past that to hire a single direct entry FOs was to take a dangerous path towards DECs and now we see the results.
DEC 320:
Have a look on mygulfair.co and there is a guy who parachuted into the 320 left seat. Who is this guy? Where does he come from? Very high staff number. Local name.
When other airlines in the ME have to cope with expansion hiring DECs, Gulf Air does it for the lack of competence and professionalism.
Do you think VPO or aHOFO are worried about this? Not even an email, habibi....
LNB
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Laos
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
training bond
Hello everybody,
We all signed the training bond based on company policies as we depend on then to make decisions regarding our careers perspectives. As they are changing the rules and policies all the time, including a recent letter from the VPO about carrer progression at GF( no joke), does anyone know if the training bond still applies in a legal dispute?
Thank you,
Very disappointed pilot.
We all signed the training bond based on company policies as we depend on then to make decisions regarding our careers perspectives. As they are changing the rules and policies all the time, including a recent letter from the VPO about carrer progression at GF( no joke), does anyone know if the training bond still applies in a legal dispute?
Thank you,
Very disappointed pilot.
Last edited by bird dog; 17th Jun 2006 at 00:02.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: min rest
Posts: 424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bird Dog you are employed in the Gulf.... the track record is.... pilots contracts generally are only enforceable one way....GFs.
GF managers have always screwed their pilots and the contract is not worth the paper it is written on ....to the pilot.
Remember the show must go on and be run under their terms.
Would you like to try and run that mess?
Try not to get too depressed.......and remember to fly safe.
GF managers have always screwed their pilots and the contract is not worth the paper it is written on ....to the pilot.
Remember the show must go on and be run under their terms.
Would you like to try and run that mess?
Try not to get too depressed.......and remember to fly safe.
Last edited by scanscanscan; 16th Jun 2006 at 22:12.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Bahrain
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
VPO Newsletter 16th February, 2006
A quick refresher from 4 months ago...
Quote:
"Sub: Career Progression in Gulf Air
Gentlemen,
This letter is to adress concerns voiced by several of you regarding your career progression with Gulf Air.
Prospects for Command Upgrade
Gulf Air remains commited to promotion to Captain from within the ranks of Company First Officers. This has been consistently demonstrated over the last 3 years, with the largest Command Upgrade program in Company's history.
Captain H.A
Vice Presiden Operations"
Quote:
"Sub: Career Progression in Gulf Air
Gentlemen,
This letter is to adress concerns voiced by several of you regarding your career progression with Gulf Air.
Prospects for Command Upgrade
Gulf Air remains commited to promotion to Captain from within the ranks of Company First Officers. This has been consistently demonstrated over the last 3 years, with the largest Command Upgrade program in Company's history.
Captain H.A
Vice Presiden Operations"
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: You Name It.
Posts: 355
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just asked around the office and nobody knows anything about DEC's. The next batch of interviews (end June) are for DEFO's not Capts. The Captain you refered to who just came from Arabia is an ex GF Capt who returned to GF after changing his mind. This is allowed by GF if the decision to return is made within a certain time limit. This is, and always was, the rule for Gulf Nationals. As usual there are individuals stirring it up trying to cause trouble. One returning capt suddenly becomes a flood of DEC's. Pure stupid!!!! A real case of never let the truth get in the way of a good story! It took me all of 20mins to establish the truth about this, so why cant others do the same before blasting off here.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Middle East
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by jackbauer
Just asked around the office and nobody knows anything about DEC's. The next batch of interviews (end June) are for DEFO's not Capts. The Captain you refered to who just came from Arabia is an ex GF Capt who returned to GF after changing his mind. This is allowed by GF if the decision to return is made within a certain time limit. This is, and always was, the rule for Gulf Nationals. As usual there are individuals stirring it up trying to cause trouble. One returning capt suddenly becomes a flood of DEC's. Pure stupid!!!! A real case of never let the truth get in the way of a good story! It took me all of 20mins to establish the truth about this, so why cant others do the same before blasting off here.
As usual, thus is the root, they never know anything!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Laos
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey jackBauer
Maybe you are asking in the wrong place. Try the golden Tulip hotel.I know one 767 Captain from another airline that is in Bahrain and he IS NOT here for the F/O position.
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: South of North
Posts: 655
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK, after jumping on someone in another thread for complaining on pprune instead of going to ask managment directly I took my own advice.
Stopped in to see the HOFO today to ask if the rumour was indeed true. Nice, approachable guy that he is he sat me down and explained it fully. I'll anotate waht he said here.
Basically, they are short on the 330/340 if they take senior FO's off the 340 to upgrade on the 320 (even now you see captains flying with captains). They have also been short staffed due to the backlog in the sim due to the move from Doha. That backlog is clearing by the end of the month and the day missed in the long event is being added to the short event which begins in the next few weeks.
The plan is to cross train the 330 only pilots in August to allow movement from the 320 to the 340 and, more importantly, so they can take 340 FO's for the upgrade- which makes movement from the 320 possible. The DEC on the 767 are on 1 year contracts to allow some space for the upgrades to be completed.
That is straight from the head office. The VPO's last letter still stands.
I guess the grass is always greener - I'll trade any 767 FO - you can take my 330 blocks without overtime to Europe where my per diems get eaten up in no time - I'll take your O/T blocks and save my per diems. I estimate the average 320/767 FO walks home with AT LEAST 500 dinar more than me each month after OT, TAFB and destinations where the food is reasonably priced.That is with minimal OT--if he does 90-100 hours it is much more than that.
Stopped in to see the HOFO today to ask if the rumour was indeed true. Nice, approachable guy that he is he sat me down and explained it fully. I'll anotate waht he said here.
Basically, they are short on the 330/340 if they take senior FO's off the 340 to upgrade on the 320 (even now you see captains flying with captains). They have also been short staffed due to the backlog in the sim due to the move from Doha. That backlog is clearing by the end of the month and the day missed in the long event is being added to the short event which begins in the next few weeks.
The plan is to cross train the 330 only pilots in August to allow movement from the 320 to the 340 and, more importantly, so they can take 340 FO's for the upgrade- which makes movement from the 320 possible. The DEC on the 767 are on 1 year contracts to allow some space for the upgrades to be completed.
That is straight from the head office. The VPO's last letter still stands.
I guess the grass is always greener - I'll trade any 767 FO - you can take my 330 blocks without overtime to Europe where my per diems get eaten up in no time - I'll take your O/T blocks and save my per diems. I estimate the average 320/767 FO walks home with AT LEAST 500 dinar more than me each month after OT, TAFB and destinations where the food is reasonably priced.That is with minimal OT--if he does 90-100 hours it is much more than that.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Laos
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Trader,
Very good post, thank you for your clarification.Nice to have official information from a secure source.
Jackbauer,
Can you will still swear there is no DECs in GF at the moment? Before get angry with sincere people here check your fonts, just to avoid embarrassement to yourself.
Very good post, thank you for your clarification.Nice to have official information from a secure source.
Jackbauer,
Can you will still swear there is no DECs in GF at the moment? Before get angry with sincere people here check your fonts, just to avoid embarrassement to yourself.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Bahrain
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You can add some make-up...
Morning gents,
Trader, thank you for your post and to share the knowledge with us.
Your chat with him touched mainly DEFO's for the 330.
Facts about DEFO's:
When me and my badge mates joined it was clearly stated on OM-A, clearly defined by the selection team that the only way into GF was RHS 320/767. Fact is that we on the 320 are still being bypassed by DEFOs to the long haul fleet. For the grass being greener...
I got overtime once, since I'm not part of the "club" and LDG NO BLUE here flies only east in a desperate attempt to get my HF straight one day! I want a better rating for when the *** hits the fan so I increase my chances of bringing food home.
We have lots of contract pilots, with extended contracts. Lately, extended until their retirement.
Fact is:
There are and will be pilots on the LHS that joined the company after us and are blocking our command. You can put some make up on this fact with words as: temporary, emergency solution, exceptions, 1 year contract, BUT, the nude reality is: Direct Entry Captains!
Concerning the guy that left for Arabia and now decided to return, when he left, was probably for a greener pasture. Now, when you do a move like this, you carefully analise the consequences and possible outcomes and you stick to your decision because is the best course of action at the time. I see this scenario like a boy wanting to join a rugby match and at the first contact with their defense line, runs out of the course calling for momma! I don't blame him, GF is responsible it.
Question is: when is he moving to the 330/340? To build up seniority in a different airline is an alien concept for me.
Can you imagine if all ex-GF that joined EK, QR decided to come back? No exceptions granted! If you don't draw the line, chaos will reign.
Seniority is a necessary evil that will disregard qualifications and experience to keep fairness in this game. Seniority will be decisive when a downsizing takes place, resulting in ONE number making the difference between staying or going, between staying LHS or demote as FO to keep your job.
If you remember the end of the movie "Braveheart" when Mel Gibson gets a haircut and shouts freeeeeeedoooooommmmmmm?
Well, you can see me shouting SENIORITYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!
LNB
Trader, thank you for your post and to share the knowledge with us.
Your chat with him touched mainly DEFO's for the 330.
Facts about DEFO's:
When me and my badge mates joined it was clearly stated on OM-A, clearly defined by the selection team that the only way into GF was RHS 320/767. Fact is that we on the 320 are still being bypassed by DEFOs to the long haul fleet. For the grass being greener...
I got overtime once, since I'm not part of the "club" and LDG NO BLUE here flies only east in a desperate attempt to get my HF straight one day! I want a better rating for when the *** hits the fan so I increase my chances of bringing food home.
We have lots of contract pilots, with extended contracts. Lately, extended until their retirement.
Fact is:
There are and will be pilots on the LHS that joined the company after us and are blocking our command. You can put some make up on this fact with words as: temporary, emergency solution, exceptions, 1 year contract, BUT, the nude reality is: Direct Entry Captains!
Concerning the guy that left for Arabia and now decided to return, when he left, was probably for a greener pasture. Now, when you do a move like this, you carefully analise the consequences and possible outcomes and you stick to your decision because is the best course of action at the time. I see this scenario like a boy wanting to join a rugby match and at the first contact with their defense line, runs out of the course calling for momma! I don't blame him, GF is responsible it.
Question is: when is he moving to the 330/340? To build up seniority in a different airline is an alien concept for me.
Can you imagine if all ex-GF that joined EK, QR decided to come back? No exceptions granted! If you don't draw the line, chaos will reign.
Seniority is a necessary evil that will disregard qualifications and experience to keep fairness in this game. Seniority will be decisive when a downsizing takes place, resulting in ONE number making the difference between staying or going, between staying LHS or demote as FO to keep your job.
If you remember the end of the movie "Braveheart" when Mel Gibson gets a haircut and shouts freeeeeeedoooooommmmmmm?
Well, you can see me shouting SENIORITYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!
LNB
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: The Gulf
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There actually is some kind of time limit for the local guys to come back.Can't rememeber what it is but not too long.Some of you guys who seem to have joined within the last few years seem to think GF owes you command.Well my friends you should talk to some of your local collegues,most of whom have at least 10yrs F/O time.The right seat A320 to left seat B767 courses have all been delayed indefinately due to some B767 F/Os who joined within the last 2 years complaining that when the joined they were promised command.So HOFO & the rest of th team have decided to delay the locals & keep their promise to the moaners.Very fair but hey that's GF.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Laos
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mogley,
You have a point, however it looks to me that the locals accept the DEC and DEFO without complaining as much as expats, the famous saying: What to do?
I suppose that, as being a national, your complaint would be more effective...Anyway what we are saying is that the upgrades are being delayed because of DECs, nothing to do with being local or expat.
Maybe I am wrong but I believe that everybody unhappy with all this changes in the rules and policies should let the managers know about it in a mature and civilised way. If not to change things , for piece of mind. In the end of the day its gonna to be management decision if they want to keep their pilots and I am sure they know how.
You have a point, however it looks to me that the locals accept the DEC and DEFO without complaining as much as expats, the famous saying: What to do?
I suppose that, as being a national, your complaint would be more effective...Anyway what we are saying is that the upgrades are being delayed because of DECs, nothing to do with being local or expat.
Maybe I am wrong but I believe that everybody unhappy with all this changes in the rules and policies should let the managers know about it in a mature and civilised way. If not to change things , for piece of mind. In the end of the day its gonna to be management decision if they want to keep their pilots and I am sure they know how.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: The Gulf
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
bd,
This is exactly 1 of the problems, people here (incl. myself) have got so used to whoever is in management at the time changing or ignoring the rules to the benefit a particular group.For instance we all know recently that there was an A320 to B767 upgrade course made specifically for 1 guy & can you believe it that now he's gone it's cancelled for all the rest.But hey... "what to do"
This is exactly 1 of the problems, people here (incl. myself) have got so used to whoever is in management at the time changing or ignoring the rules to the benefit a particular group.For instance we all know recently that there was an A320 to B767 upgrade course made specifically for 1 guy & can you believe it that now he's gone it's cancelled for all the rest.But hey... "what to do"
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Bahrain
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
10-12 years to command....
Morning gents,
As for guys spending 10-12 years waiting for command, my answer is:
- so what?
It is a completely different market situation and for those who have been using this as a valid argument, I'll explain the facts to support my conclusion:
10-12 years ago is 1996-1994.
Aviation was still booming at the mid 90's, huge orders, the world economy was doing well. There was an exaggeration and companies expanded more they really needed, or to meet the real demand.
So, look what happened to the world, as these guys careers were progressing:
1994-1998
Start as S/O, after 2 years promoted to F/O. Total experience 2500-3000 hours. Aviation booming is on its last years.
2000
Gulf Air 072 A320 struck water in the arabian Gulf, 3NM short of Rwy 12.
Stops everything at GF. No promotions, no salary increases, no transfers.
2000-2003
September 11, SARS, low cost airlines. Fuel prices. Gulf War II.
GF suffers a lot, as everybody else in the world.
And our pilot in question is still flying RHS, because there is no movement. There is no NEED for movement, company is streamlining efficiency, cutting costs, reducing routes. Creation of GT to hit the Sub-continent market. Guys hitting 7-8 thousand hours TT.
2004-2006
Aviation worldwide starts to recover. Airlines ordering planes with AB and Boeing. The market starts to dry up, major airlines calling back their pilots (US, Air Canada), BA recruiting 300 for the coming years, Netjets expanding fleet, Asian markets booming, Middle East companies with never before seen expansion plans.
So, think twice next time that you come up with the phrase:
"Oh the actual upgrades had to wait 10-12 years for their command and you think that after 5-6 years, GF owes you LHS."
My answer is: today's market is completely different from 5 or 10 years ago. The 30 upgrades/year are in the VPO own words: "the largest Command Upgrade program in Company's history".
GF does not owe me anything (apart from free accomodation which they don't fulfil their contractual obligations), but the aviation market is smiling at us now! Remember that and make the best use of it.
Sincerely,
LNB
As for guys spending 10-12 years waiting for command, my answer is:
- so what?
It is a completely different market situation and for those who have been using this as a valid argument, I'll explain the facts to support my conclusion:
10-12 years ago is 1996-1994.
Aviation was still booming at the mid 90's, huge orders, the world economy was doing well. There was an exaggeration and companies expanded more they really needed, or to meet the real demand.
So, look what happened to the world, as these guys careers were progressing:
1994-1998
Start as S/O, after 2 years promoted to F/O. Total experience 2500-3000 hours. Aviation booming is on its last years.
2000
Gulf Air 072 A320 struck water in the arabian Gulf, 3NM short of Rwy 12.
Stops everything at GF. No promotions, no salary increases, no transfers.
2000-2003
September 11, SARS, low cost airlines. Fuel prices. Gulf War II.
GF suffers a lot, as everybody else in the world.
And our pilot in question is still flying RHS, because there is no movement. There is no NEED for movement, company is streamlining efficiency, cutting costs, reducing routes. Creation of GT to hit the Sub-continent market. Guys hitting 7-8 thousand hours TT.
2004-2006
Aviation worldwide starts to recover. Airlines ordering planes with AB and Boeing. The market starts to dry up, major airlines calling back their pilots (US, Air Canada), BA recruiting 300 for the coming years, Netjets expanding fleet, Asian markets booming, Middle East companies with never before seen expansion plans.
So, think twice next time that you come up with the phrase:
"Oh the actual upgrades had to wait 10-12 years for their command and you think that after 5-6 years, GF owes you LHS."
My answer is: today's market is completely different from 5 or 10 years ago. The 30 upgrades/year are in the VPO own words: "the largest Command Upgrade program in Company's history".
GF does not owe me anything (apart from free accomodation which they don't fulfil their contractual obligations), but the aviation market is smiling at us now! Remember that and make the best use of it.
Sincerely,
LNB
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: ME
Age: 50
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I guess the grass is always greener - I'll trade any 767 FO - you can take my 330 blocks without overtime to Europe where my per diems get eaten up in no time - I'll take your O/T blocks and save my per diems. I estimate the average 320/767 FO walks home with AT LEAST 500 dinar more than me each month after OT, TAFB and destinations where the food is reasonably priced.That is with minimal OT--if he does 90-100 hours it is much more than that.[/quote]
Dear Trader or "Line of the Sky",
Indeed 320/767 are the best fleet in GF
Regarding the 767 fleet,have you ever heard about constant schedule changes,4 sectors a day,BKK-KUL 24 h while 340 guys stop after BKK,48h DAC,multiple dead headings within the same block,crew meals on subcontinent flights and so on.....
obviously not.
I ll tell you what complaining about the golden falcon is like complaining about the WX,it's not constructive.
Why don't you try EK ....nobody is paying the training bond any way
Based on the last 18 months ,the average monthly allowance I took home including,TAFB,Days off sold,Overtime and 2 months leave is below 500 BD.
But I guess that if you are spending your days off in OPS wearing a tie and doing some ATH,CGK,KUL (48 h only,24h too tiring) on a regular basis then it's another story.
In the mean time enjoy the sky chef's food and the extras...(be carefull everybody knows for the "surprise plastic bag")
Dear Trader or "Line of the Sky",
Indeed 320/767 are the best fleet in GF
Regarding the 767 fleet,have you ever heard about constant schedule changes,4 sectors a day,BKK-KUL 24 h while 340 guys stop after BKK,48h DAC,multiple dead headings within the same block,crew meals on subcontinent flights and so on.....
obviously not.I ll tell you what complaining about the golden falcon is like complaining about the WX,it's not constructive.
Why don't you try EK
....nobody is paying the training bond any wayBased on the last 18 months ,the average monthly allowance I took home including,TAFB,Days off sold,Overtime and 2 months leave is below 500 BD.
But I guess that if you are spending your days off in OPS wearing a tie and doing some ATH,CGK,KUL (48 h only,24h too tiring) on a regular basis then it's another story.
In the mean time enjoy the sky chef's food and the extras...(be carefull everybody knows for the "surprise plastic bag")
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Surrounded by aluminum, and the great outdoors
Posts: 3,780
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mogley...
1) the 2-year upgrades did not moan about anything, in fact they were caught completely by surprise..
2) base transfers to auh from other fleets for commands was never in the picture and that was made perfectly clear from the beginning..while not the ideal situation, it was the most cost effective one...EK is posting huge profits, and still does DEC's
3) at the time the 2-year commands happened, the \AUH base was alive and well
4) the other f.o.'s at the base were short of hours..(barely)
5) I am under the impression the airbus folks who recently moved to the 767 were from the 330/340, or in any event in line with fleetwide seniority as now the auh base is closed, the lists are merged
6) the only "moaner" in AUH has jumped ship...good riddance to him...
7) your posts are full of crap...if it's so bad...then go to EK, at least your complaints will have some modicum of legitimacy
1) the 2-year upgrades did not moan about anything, in fact they were caught completely by surprise..
2) base transfers to auh from other fleets for commands was never in the picture and that was made perfectly clear from the beginning..while not the ideal situation, it was the most cost effective one...EK is posting huge profits, and still does DEC's
3) at the time the 2-year commands happened, the \AUH base was alive and well
4) the other f.o.'s at the base were short of hours..(barely)
5) I am under the impression the airbus folks who recently moved to the 767 were from the 330/340, or in any event in line with fleetwide seniority as now the auh base is closed, the lists are merged
6) the only "moaner" in AUH has jumped ship...good riddance to him...
7) your posts are full of crap...if it's so bad...then go to EK, at least your complaints will have some modicum of legitimacy