Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

DEC's at EK

Old 12th Feb 2006, 05:43
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In a interview with the EK chairman the other day, the Gulf News quoted him as saying that EK will have a fleet of 132 aeroplanes by 2013. Since we have about 80 aeroplanes now that leaves 52 new deliveries to be crewed in the next 7 and a bit years (other deliveries are to replace the 330s A market boeings etc). At 10 crews per aeroplane (a guess, I am sure someone will have a better figues), thats 520 commands. With the 100 or so DECs they are looking for in the next 12 months or so, and with some 650ish FOs already on the list, commands now may take some time in coming. Or am I missing something?

Don
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Old 12th Feb 2006, 07:23
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No you are spot on DON. It would help if EK went to 14 crews per airplane like the industry norm but there is as much chance of that happening as snow falling in Dubai in summer. After all we know what part of the world we live in.
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Old 12th Feb 2006, 08:10
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LHR RAIN says:
"It would help if EK went to 14 crews per airplane like the industry norm "

Others may disagree but on long-haul 11 crews per aircraft is quite common, (SIA etc.) and on short-haul 5 to 7 crews per a/c.

Interested to hear what others have to say.
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Old 12th Feb 2006, 11:18
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BlueEagle

Agree with you on that one. Last Company was around 7-8 per Aircraft with mix of some longhaul ( not ultra ) and mainly short / medium. Most dedicated longhauls work on around 9-10. Maybe LHR Rain was meant to divide by 2! I doubt even the US legacy carriers use 14 per aircraft.
He'll be telling us next that 16 days off a month is the norm..........
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Old 12th Feb 2006, 16:17
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Yes I would be telling you that and yes ultra long haul work, thats right work 8-12 days a month and still get their 75 hours in a month.
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Old 12th Feb 2006, 18:02
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HI Guys,
i have been reading all the threads about EK, i am glad i did.
I am currently flying the 744 with AI and was thinking about applying to EK, but i guess that it was just a case of the grass APPEARING greener on the other side.From what i have heard so far i think i am better off staying with AI.
AI has too been taking in a lot of DECs, that will definitely affect my upgrade time but the good part is that all the DECs are on temporary contracts so they will all be gone in about a 2-3 years.
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Old 12th Feb 2006, 18:40
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4PW's, It is true. I am a moderately senior Captain with Emirates and my basic salary is Dhs29,000, that is just US$7900. Yes, It is tax free.

I fly nearly 100 hours a month across the night time and different time zones, I get Dhs400 (US$108) every hour above about 78 hours a month, there is no duty pay. I get an allowance when I check in at the comapny hotels, but I am nearly always spending in excess of the allowance but I do enjoy my time with my colleagues as it is the only time that I can have a social life with so few days off in Dubai. I get a company provided villa and could, if I wanted to, take the housing allowance instead to rent on my own, but the rents go up very much each year. I get a car to pick me up and take me to work. I have been here 6 years and why am I am looking at other jobs now? Because the inflation here has made the spending power less and we are being treated badly by the managers who take all credit for all the hard work that we all do. I know that this exists elsewhere, but I would rather that I earned US$12000 a month for it.
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Old 13th Feb 2006, 11:18
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I'm sorry to hear that, EK Pilot.

I have just sent you a PM, which may have information as bright as "Dawn's rose-petaled fingers" if I understand the renumeration at Emirates correctly.

Actually, I wish to confess that I shudder every time I see that horrid EK logo on the tail of an otherwise fine piece of machinery.

Can't help wondering what effect mismanagement of staff will have on the airlines' bottom line in the longer term. Passengers will eventually become more aware of what EK's work practices are, which ultimately translate into less customer appeal. The worm will turn. It did at Boeing.
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Old 13th Feb 2006, 11:38
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You are a Gentleman, Sir!! Thank you for that, I will private mail you soon.
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Old 13th Feb 2006, 19:51
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I've got the time and more. Should I apply, for DEC?? IT's in your manuals, you know it, so what's the problem? Your Management has stated in the recent letter, that ALL upgrades will be within the current staff, no-one is argueing with that. It also said, that up-grades will not be affected, bearing in mind, the new aircraft coming. Therefore, I am NOT a threat to you, if I do apply. If I do and get in, am I going home with black eyes!!? Can't really see the problem.
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Old 13th Feb 2006, 21:43
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easy.. Management lies!!

If you would come, don't expect a hearty welcome. And more important, once you're in, you'll find out about the management lies since then they will affect you as well.

BTW: You must be crazy to come under current conditions, unless they promised you a better salary, in which case it would be appreciated if you post the conditions they offered.

MR8
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Old 14th Feb 2006, 04:56
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From what i can gather the Airbus guys are stuck in a huge Rut.
There is many F/Os with the DEC and Accelerated hours as well as 3 year F/Os , and although in the book it says they can go to the 777 they first have to go as F/os for 6 months so theyll be paired up with DECs obviously , rubbing there noses in it.
I also belive the couses do not start till late this year so these guys will not be captains for another 18 months to 2 years yeat some will have more hours than you TIC.
The transition upgrade policy was deliberately made unattractive to stop Airbus guys moving , many waiting there time on the Airbus , while even a guy can come on to the 777 as F/O and get a command in 6 months if he meets the accelerated criteria , while similarly qualified F/Os on the airbus are looking at 4-5-possibly 6 years . Unfortunately its not like CX or BA or even Virgin and you will get bitten down path ,believe me and nobody will help you no union you are on your own.
I left after 2 years as there was no light at the end of the tunnel and glad i did, i didnt choose to go on the airbus but i was put on it with no prospect of command even though i had boeing command time i still could not get onto the 777, yet guys come off the street now , and you wonder why the F/Os are pissed off.
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Old 14th Feb 2006, 09:17
  #273 (permalink)  
 
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donpizmeov:

Interesting info about the Chairman and his numbers:
"In a interview with the EK chairman the other day, the Gulf News quoted him as saying that EK will have a fleet of 132 aeroplanes by 2013".

I would appreciate if you could post a link to this interview.

And no, you are not missing anything and in fact you are generous with your numbers. The numbers don't lie and anyone coming to this outfit with the idea of getting a 3 year upgrade are dreaming and are in for a very large wakeup call.

The math gets very interesting...........here is some numbers for those of you who have just joined EK or are considering doing so:
Number of Pilots as of 25 Dec 2005:

Capt Airbus: 382
F/O Airbus: 376
Total Airbus: 758
Airbus a/c: 50 (29 A330, 10 A340-500, 8 A340-300, 1 A310, 2 A310F)
Airbus Manning: 15.16 pilots/aircraft

Captain Boeing: 242
F/O Boeing: 233
Total Boeing: 475
Boeing a/c: 30 (12 B777-300, 9 B777-200, 9 B777-300ER)
Boeing Manning: 15.83 pilots/aircraft

*All info taken from internal EK documents and/or public press releases.

As you can see, EK currently man their fleet at slightly less than 8 crews per a/c. Take off those who are in "managment" positions and only fly part of the month and those in training and you can see why we are flying our asses off.

Assuming the Chairmans numbers and no increase in manning levels, 132 aircraft x 15.41 pilots/aircraft = 2034 pilots by 2013. As we currently already have 1233 as of 25 Dec 2005, it looks to me like every single F/O coming now will remain so (even without the DEC's they are hiring) for a VERY LONG TIME.
The only way this scenario will change is if EK continue to buy more a/c; might happen but given the overcapacity already present in the Gulf I would not bet my career on it. Food for thought?
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Old 14th Feb 2006, 09:48
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I've got the time and more. Should I apply, for DEC?? IT's in your manuals, you know it, so what's the problem? Your Management has stated in the recent letter, that ALL upgrades will be within the current staff, no-one is argueing with that. It also said, that up-grades will not be affected, bearing in mind, the new aircraft coming. Therefore, I am NOT a threat to you, if I do apply. If I do and get in, am I going home with black eyes!!? Can't really see the problem.


TIC you can't see the problem because you are not here putting up with all the crap. We all know what our management has stated in the recent letters. What they don't tell you is all they wanted was to hire DECs and shove our career expectations up our arses. I say this because they have already interviewed and hired DECs and have done nothing and I mean nothing for normal, transtions, and accelerated upgrades. In other words the last three criteria are not going to happen while the first catagory has and is happening right before us.
The upgrades are effected. Do you really believe management on that one? No one on the Airbus has upgraded on time in the last year and no one on the Airbus will upgrade on time (3 yrs) for at least the next 2 yrs and probably longer.
You will be a problem TIC because more than likely you will come in at 38,000 AED which as you know is more than most of the captains here. If you are worth your weight in salt, that is you come from a good company you will not leave that company for any less money and good on you. If you are making less money than 38,000 AED you must be at a really good company. HA!
So with the above metioned items you will not be popular with the pilots here at EK but especially the FOs. I think even you can see why so many pilots would be upset at the situation and the reason for being upset. That is unless you are just trying to jerk our chain.
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Old 14th Feb 2006, 11:29
  #275 (permalink)  
 
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Rainie,
TIC is a GF fella with too much time on his hands, who wants to wind you up. If you check, you will see that he reckons EKs days are numbered and that EY will rule the skies in the near future, so I think he has no intention of joining EK.
Dune,
Unfortunatley I do not have the link. I read it whilst over Iran on the way to Euro somewhere or other day. It was in the bussiness bit last week. Also made mention of fuel being 21% of costs now instead of 14%, other companies jealous etc etc. A couple of months ago the plan was to start to get rid of some of the 330s from late next year, and the 772s not far after that. Not sure if this has changed or not.
Tic,
For those that have joined within the last 2yrs the DEC thing should not be too much of a shock, as it was underway when they signed the dotted line. But for those that joined before this, and are still waiting for the seat change course, I can understand that they are unhappy when a DEC course is given priority and they are delayed yet again. Some of the fellas I have flown with lately have been told that their upgrade courses are delayed 12mths from the time of being eligable. So thats 12 times the monthly pay check, 12 times the provident payment, 12 months of being unable to get on a flight with a subload ticket because J and Y are full and 1 profit share behind because of DECs. So I do understand why the are not happy campers. This is after a garantee from management 2yrs ago that no-one would be adversely doneby this new policy.
Don
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Old 14th Feb 2006, 11:58
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Dune:

Your numbers are spot on I tell people coming for F.O. interviews that they must not listen to HR in regards to upgrade timeframe. I also tell them that they need to make the decision to come to EK based on a 7 year upgrade. Hopefully they listen.

TP
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Old 14th Feb 2006, 19:15
  #277 (permalink)  
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Don
Tks for the explaination. I know lots of guys in (F/O's), Capt's too, in EK. I do not want to jump ahead of them re DEC. Actually, I'm quite happy where I am in GF. Generally speaking, I get treated pretty well. All the best to all of you. I hope the goal-posts, don't change too much.
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Old 15th Feb 2006, 23:38
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Thanks...

for the interesting Thread so far.
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Old 16th Feb 2006, 00:11
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Dont forget you can probably remove at least 1 to 2 aircraft for maintenance daily on each fleet so its probably closer to 9 crews.
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Old 16th Feb 2006, 05:07
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Rambo,

I think your friend missunderstood what he was told. I think its 18mths for an accellerated command. And even then it only happens if no other 777 Fo is at the 3yrs point and ready to go.

So if you want to make a bit of cash. See if your friend is willing to make a bet on his command time. From the numbers shown on this thread, it would seem that those that joined at the beginning of 2005 might get a command in 2013. And that is still dependent on how many DECs they get in the mean time.

So if your friend is joining on the idea of a quick command, he may be disapointed. If he is joining because he likes sand, and has an allegy to sleep, he might do ok.

Don
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