Dubai departures/delays
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Vercingetorix. Oh, so you still haven't worked out who I am?
Keep trying, Julio.
EuroATC. You've insisted on making an ass of yourself, so I'll make it easy for you.
Do you realise how stupid you sound "I once flew in the cockpit and lalalalala........." From that post
Someone else pointed out the restrictions we work under, and what happens if you do things that aren't permitted. I was trying to postulate a reason for the particular night in question, when you just jumped in and started firing from the hip. You then went on to show your ignorance about why LVPs might've been at fault. I am happy to stand by my statement about you spouting off on subjects of which you have no knowledge. DO you know what DXB can and can't do, and why?
You need to have a good long look at yourself. Have a read of your own (recent) post history.
So you agree. Bend or break. You have chosen to break.
Yes. We'd all be in jail. How naive are you?
When you find that Utopia, let us know. Same $hit, different degrees/day/management.
Your former colleagues talk in glowing terms of Navcanada
(or hongkers, or oz, or wherever). Are you just terminally dissatisfied?
OOH yeah, I'm REAL nasty!
Thanks, your input has just been sooooo helpful on this topic. Cup of vitriol, anyone?
Keep trying, Julio.EuroATC. You've insisted on making an ass of yourself, so I'll make it easy for you.
I do not mouth off on subjects which I have no knowledge, first off, my initial post on this topic was made from an observation sitting in the cockpit of an aircraft
All the controller had to do is release you for take off and a turn 30 degrees off centreline to permit faster jet climbing behind. They don't understand the concept of initial separation
I am not venting
See thing is, I made some suggestions in Bahrain, some were taken and changes have started happening, others were ignored. I understand how it works and I CHOOSE to not continue working here
You would be amazed what could happen if you all stood together.
And no, the same doesn't apply everywhere
I've worked in Europe and North America
(or hongkers, or oz, or wherever). Are you just terminally dissatisfied?OOH yeah, I'm REAL nasty!
Thanks, your input has just been sooooo helpful on this topic. Cup of vitriol, anyone?
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You then went on to show your ignorance about why LVPs might've been at fault
I never once mentioned why LVP's are at fault.. go read and re read and re read the posts.
The rest.. it's not worth my time.
Enjoy your life in the sand pit hahaha
And for the record.. I didn't leave Toronto or Geneva because I was pissed off at the company.. I left to experience something different.. If I was so angry with Nav Can..why would I go back
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GROW UP GUYS!!!!
Personal attacks ain't going to solve anything.
Yes things are different in that part of the world, and yes when you have bashed your head against a brick wall for too long, trying to help better the system, you do move away. If you don't you become bitter and blame the woes on others not understanding the bigger picture.
Firstly, the main problem about both the UAE ACC and Dubai APP system is that decisions made by the UAE DCA over-rule those made by the Dubai CAA. Therefore no 'meaningful' discussions take place to better operational standards and procedures.
Secondly, the Service Company do not want to go out on a limb and push for a system that may be better - if they upset the wrong person in their endevours their cash-cow will end.
Thirdly, and this is not meant in a derogatory way to the locals, but they seem to get taken for a ride by any slick talking 'expert'. Hence the supreme power vested in the Dane.
Perhaps things have changed since I left Dubai ATC some 4 years ago, but judging from the moans and gripes, I doubt it.
Personal attacks ain't going to solve anything.
Yes things are different in that part of the world, and yes when you have bashed your head against a brick wall for too long, trying to help better the system, you do move away. If you don't you become bitter and blame the woes on others not understanding the bigger picture.
Firstly, the main problem about both the UAE ACC and Dubai APP system is that decisions made by the UAE DCA over-rule those made by the Dubai CAA. Therefore no 'meaningful' discussions take place to better operational standards and procedures.
Secondly, the Service Company do not want to go out on a limb and push for a system that may be better - if they upset the wrong person in their endevours their cash-cow will end.
Thirdly, and this is not meant in a derogatory way to the locals, but they seem to get taken for a ride by any slick talking 'expert'. Hence the supreme power vested in the Dane.
Perhaps things have changed since I left Dubai ATC some 4 years ago, but judging from the moans and gripes, I doubt it.
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Hey good to see another ACC controller with no effing idea
If the wind changes and pilots will not accept the landing runway what do you do ? If we'd left it later it would've got worse. By the way when we do give you free flow after holding how about actually vectoring them to the minima required? We lost count of the amount of 15 - 18 nm gaps when we were at 10nm thro' the gates. If we sequenced that badly, you ACC guys would throw your dummies out of the cot!
As for staff shortages, we tell everyone who asks, do emirates know, course they do. We're losing guys a hell of alot faster than we are hiring. Our terms are not what they once were and the only people who come out anymore are people out for a holiday.
As for standardisation, ask Shoot The Gap, it is hard for a controller to knowingly delay people for no good reason. The rules here don't count as a good reason to many. So some watches are better at sticking to the letter to the law and some better at working within it's constraints.
Whilst throwing muck around, lets not forget the customers, especially our favourite local airline, who dawdle on the runway and need telling twice about everything. This by no means goes for all of there pilots but a big chunk. At least you know what you're getting with our east european friends.
FT
If the wind changes and pilots will not accept the landing runway what do you do ? If we'd left it later it would've got worse. By the way when we do give you free flow after holding how about actually vectoring them to the minima required? We lost count of the amount of 15 - 18 nm gaps when we were at 10nm thro' the gates. If we sequenced that badly, you ACC guys would throw your dummies out of the cot!
As for staff shortages, we tell everyone who asks, do emirates know, course they do. We're losing guys a hell of alot faster than we are hiring. Our terms are not what they once were and the only people who come out anymore are people out for a holiday.
As for standardisation, ask Shoot The Gap, it is hard for a controller to knowingly delay people for no good reason. The rules here don't count as a good reason to many. So some watches are better at sticking to the letter to the law and some better at working within it's constraints.
Whilst throwing muck around, lets not forget the customers, especially our favourite local airline, who dawdle on the runway and need telling twice about everything. This by no means goes for all of there pilots but a big chunk. At least you know what you're getting with our east european friends.
FT
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Hi FT and a very good day to you.
If I may, just a few observations:
1. Wind changes - quite a factor in our industry, one wonders how the Heathrows, JFK's et al manage through runway changes??? I do have a TWR and APP rating as well. When I worked those disciplines I was well versed in local weather patterns and phenomena (drilled into me during training) to ensure that a runway change (due to wind) was timed effectively. This was done by monitoring various aspects of the METAR and tower observations (local conditions). When 'The Signs' were there we planned a suitable time to swing the RWY in order to have a minimal impact on the traffic.
2.
What are you saying here? Some ATC's are good and others are not? IFACTA and many other unions worldwide are bemoaning the fact that ATC's are not treated as professionals and here in one sentence you kill their fight. If we are to be considered professional then we should approach the job as such. Every time there is a thread about Dubai ATC others are blamed. Strange isn't it that mostly all the threads about ATC in the ME is about the service in Dubai.
This should never be a them and us thing, or who is better. Faults lie within all ATS structure. Some need to work harder and more diligently at sorting them out. Yes even Bahrain and Canada have problems as does NATS.
If I may, just a few observations:
1. Wind changes - quite a factor in our industry, one wonders how the Heathrows, JFK's et al manage through runway changes??? I do have a TWR and APP rating as well. When I worked those disciplines I was well versed in local weather patterns and phenomena (drilled into me during training) to ensure that a runway change (due to wind) was timed effectively. This was done by monitoring various aspects of the METAR and tower observations (local conditions). When 'The Signs' were there we planned a suitable time to swing the RWY in order to have a minimal impact on the traffic.
2.
So some watches are better at sticking to the letter to the law and some better at working within it's constraints.
This should never be a them and us thing, or who is better. Faults lie within all ATS structure. Some need to work harder and more diligently at sorting them out. Yes even Bahrain and Canada have problems as does NATS.
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Thanks FT for your response to my query on the other post. It seems that this is the post where its all happening so I'll post my opinion here.
A varied wind at 500ft is indeed a valid reason for a runway change, but it doesn't absolve you guys from communicating this as the reason. All the UAE Centre could tell the pilots is that Dubai have asked for widespread holding and haven't provided a reason. The ATIS wasn't updated, and everybody more than 30NM from the aerodrome had no idea what was causing the delay or how long it was going to be. Freq 129.5 was almost blocked for the next 20 minutes with pilots making trivial requests. The easy way to solve this is to change the ATIS and then tell the UAE Centre this, so that they can make a broadcast-- "All stations this freq inbound to Dubai, wind at 500ft is......, new information is available on the ATIS freq, expect a delay of 10 to 15 minutes, standby for holding instructions"
With regards to the spacing being a little bit more than required, okay not ideal, but did this make your job harder? NO. Even with the 15-18NM spacing, you's had some guys doing snake patterns inside the approach airspace. And a couple of times, when the Centre did nail the 10NM, your co-ord rang up at the last minute to ask for 20NM. So the traffic in question had to be put back in the hold!!! And in fairness, there was 10 holding at Desdi at one stage, so the only way to figure out who was who, was to get somebody to squawk ident.
Cheers.
A varied wind at 500ft is indeed a valid reason for a runway change, but it doesn't absolve you guys from communicating this as the reason. All the UAE Centre could tell the pilots is that Dubai have asked for widespread holding and haven't provided a reason. The ATIS wasn't updated, and everybody more than 30NM from the aerodrome had no idea what was causing the delay or how long it was going to be. Freq 129.5 was almost blocked for the next 20 minutes with pilots making trivial requests. The easy way to solve this is to change the ATIS and then tell the UAE Centre this, so that they can make a broadcast-- "All stations this freq inbound to Dubai, wind at 500ft is......, new information is available on the ATIS freq, expect a delay of 10 to 15 minutes, standby for holding instructions"
With regards to the spacing being a little bit more than required, okay not ideal, but did this make your job harder? NO. Even with the 15-18NM spacing, you's had some guys doing snake patterns inside the approach airspace. And a couple of times, when the Centre did nail the 10NM, your co-ord rang up at the last minute to ask for 20NM. So the traffic in question had to be put back in the hold!!! And in fairness, there was 10 holding at Desdi at one stage, so the only way to figure out who was who, was to get somebody to squawk ident.
Cheers.
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Been in DXB for a year or so now, ACT is well, variable.
DXB has a 4000M runway, unless the wind is over 10kts of tail, at touchdown then the runway change should be delayed until a quiet time, not at the Midnight or 6am rush. DXB ATC change at the most in-opertune moments.
I know the airspace structure is complex but then so is JFK<LHR<FRA<CDG<FCO<MEL<LAX<ORD in fact most big airports are bloody complex, I think DXB needs a good bloody shake (sheik) up.If EK are going to double in size in the next 5 years alone then god help us all,, Inshallah!!!
Why no seperate delivery freq, dont tell me it's a money thing, not in DXB, never any shortage of money, unless it's for pilots of course....
DXB has a 4000M runway, unless the wind is over 10kts of tail, at touchdown then the runway change should be delayed until a quiet time, not at the Midnight or 6am rush. DXB ATC change at the most in-opertune moments.
I know the airspace structure is complex but then so is JFK<LHR<FRA<CDG<FCO<MEL<LAX<ORD in fact most big airports are bloody complex, I think DXB needs a good bloody shake (sheik) up.If EK are going to double in size in the next 5 years alone then god help us all,, Inshallah!!!
Why no seperate delivery freq, dont tell me it's a money thing, not in DXB, never any shortage of money, unless it's for pilots of course....
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Thanks Radar Pete, is that how you meant to do it? I bow to your vastly greater experience Glad you were so knowledgable about weather at your previous unit, obviously you aren't around here. In Dubai, when the wind changes it can change in a matter of minutes and completely unpredicted by the Met people (they normally report things after they happen anyway). Sometimes a runway change has to be made even at awkward times, it happens here, it happens everywhere. Occassionally it means holding, tough ****, it happens but it doesn't take much of a tailwind to prompt go arounds.
TP - Hmmmm new digital ATIS, at least we're getting it to give the correct runway at last! The centre were told why holding was necessary, not our fault if it's not passed on. Lousy gaps from the ACC increases the delays to the pilots, I thought that was what we were trying to avoid? Sorry you didn't nail 10nm at all during that period and yes some aircraft were vectored because.......shock, horror we get arrivals from other directions too ya know. Yes occasionally we asked for the odd larger gap, would you prefer a blanket restriction through the gates all the time? How does it screw you up when they are in the hold anyway? I've said before, things would be a lot smoother if we controlled the bottom levels of the hold, like most places in the rest of the world.
quote:
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So some watches are better at sticking to the letter to the law and some better at working within it's constraints.
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Did I say 'break the law'? The rules we work by are full of grey areas where a controller's discretion is involved. Just because there are different solutions to a problem doesn't mean anyone is less proffessional or less able. As controllers, Pete & TP should understand this but alas not in our lifetime
The sooner we encourage more liason visits between units & cockpits the better. I've been to the centre, how many centre controllers do we get visiting us in Dubai? Not many. We all need to be working together to improve things and stand up to the tyrannical way procedures are imposed on us.
Glad you were so knowledgable about weather at your previous unit, obviously you aren't around here. In Dubai, when the wind changes it can change in a matter of minutes and completely unpredicted by the Met people (they normally report things after they happen anyway). Sometimes a runway change has to be made even at awkward times, it happens here, it happens everywhere. Occassionally it means holding, tough ****, it happens but it doesn't take much of a tailwind to prompt go arounds.TP - Hmmmm new digital ATIS, at least we're getting it to give the correct runway at last! The centre were told why holding was necessary, not our fault if it's not passed on. Lousy gaps from the ACC increases the delays to the pilots, I thought that was what we were trying to avoid? Sorry you didn't nail 10nm at all during that period and yes some aircraft were vectored because.......shock, horror we get arrivals from other directions too ya know. Yes occasionally we asked for the odd larger gap, would you prefer a blanket restriction through the gates all the time? How does it screw you up when they are in the hold anyway? I've said before, things would be a lot smoother if we controlled the bottom levels of the hold, like most places in the rest of the world.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So some watches are better at sticking to the letter to the law and some better at working within it's constraints.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Did I say 'break the law'? The rules we work by are full of grey areas where a controller's discretion is involved. Just because there are different solutions to a problem doesn't mean anyone is less proffessional or less able. As controllers, Pete & TP should understand this but alas not in our lifetime
The sooner we encourage more liason visits between units & cockpits the better. I've been to the centre, how many centre controllers do we get visiting us in Dubai? Not many. We all need to be working together to improve things and stand up to the tyrannical way procedures are imposed on us.
Last edited by Fly Through; 16th Jul 2004 at 03:36.
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My 2 cents worth...
There are examples of good and bad controlling in both UAE Centre and in DXB APP. Sometimes ACC works their butts off to get a nice string of arrivals all spaced 10 NM apart, with no arrivals from the other side, and DXB screws it up royally. Likewise I have seen colleagues (and at times myself) blow out a sequence and give DXB 15NM and the lost 5 NM screws DXB APP over. None of us are perfect.
I can only speak from an ACC point of view and my pet hate, and the area I would concentrate most on improving in DXB is the Coord position. Too many times on certain crews, as an example, you will be on East and you will go to the Coordinator in DXB to ask if its ok to shortcut the guy passing MUSAP inside the guy passing PASOV, only to get a blank "sorry who???", and then a lame "ohhh I'll call you back". Now if the Coordinator does not have his sequence worked out, or at the very least have an idea of who is coming in and when, by this late stage, what hope do we have of running a smooth sequence into DXB. Likewise, some coordinators, call a blanket 20NM between all aircraft, when they only need a selective 20NM between maybe a couple. Now I know this is what they are supposed to do, but it works so well with one crew I know of, when they use selective bigger spacing, and the coordinator actually looks out at their big range and communicates with Area, and takes an active role in sorting out the sequence earlier rather than later.
As far as the original post goes, I agree with the general sentiment, that being that, DXB and the UAE in general (AUH is getting silly now as well), has outgrown the airport capacities, the procedures and definately the ATC staffing levels. It is not the controllers fault as they are trying to keep the system running, but one thing you can all be sure of, if the traffic keeps growing at this rate, and no big changes are made soon, it will all come to a crunching halt.
I can only speak from an ACC point of view and my pet hate, and the area I would concentrate most on improving in DXB is the Coord position. Too many times on certain crews, as an example, you will be on East and you will go to the Coordinator in DXB to ask if its ok to shortcut the guy passing MUSAP inside the guy passing PASOV, only to get a blank "sorry who???", and then a lame "ohhh I'll call you back". Now if the Coordinator does not have his sequence worked out, or at the very least have an idea of who is coming in and when, by this late stage, what hope do we have of running a smooth sequence into DXB. Likewise, some coordinators, call a blanket 20NM between all aircraft, when they only need a selective 20NM between maybe a couple. Now I know this is what they are supposed to do, but it works so well with one crew I know of, when they use selective bigger spacing, and the coordinator actually looks out at their big range and communicates with Area, and takes an active role in sorting out the sequence earlier rather than later.
As far as the original post goes, I agree with the general sentiment, that being that, DXB and the UAE in general (AUH is getting silly now as well), has outgrown the airport capacities, the procedures and definately the ATC staffing levels. It is not the controllers fault as they are trying to keep the system running, but one thing you can all be sure of, if the traffic keeps growing at this rate, and no big changes are made soon, it will all come to a crunching halt.
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Cap 56 this thread has been running just fine without your input. Now if your intent is to come in and pontificate conspiracy theory rhetoric from the luxury of your armchair than I shall be obliged to show you the door. If you, on the other hand, feel that you have some constructive input to make then please feel free to contribute. Very simply, I will not allow this thread to be hijacked in the manner in which you contributed to the thread concerning the EK 340 incident in Joburg.
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thanks Fly Through, your humility is refreshing.
Your colleagues in Area, the weathermen, pilots, the regulator, and the unpredictably predictable weather are all conspiring to make your job so difficult. But being a trooper that you are, you make the best of a bad situation.
For the record, when the Co-ord called, his words verbatim- "Hold all traffic", and then he hung up, no reason given, and none sought because of the volume of traffic on freq.
Also for the record, when the discretionary 20 miles was called, the traffic had already departed the hold. I agree that it is better to use the dicretionary 20 miles than the blanket 20 miles, just make sure you use your discretion when using your discretion.
With regards to the exchange program whereby we come and visit eachothers facility, I'd love to but I'm getting some teeth pulled this week. Does next week suit you!!!
Your colleagues in Area, the weathermen, pilots, the regulator, and the unpredictably predictable weather are all conspiring to make your job so difficult. But being a trooper that you are, you make the best of a bad situation.
For the record, when the Co-ord called, his words verbatim- "Hold all traffic", and then he hung up, no reason given, and none sought because of the volume of traffic on freq.
Also for the record, when the discretionary 20 miles was called, the traffic had already departed the hold. I agree that it is better to use the dicretionary 20 miles than the blanket 20 miles, just make sure you use your discretion when using your discretion.
With regards to the exchange program whereby we come and visit eachothers facility, I'd love to but I'm getting some teeth pulled this week. Does next week suit you!!!
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TP just trying to explain things from our point of view, ya don't want to listen then fine no skin off my nose. ANSA is right we aren't all perfect but we are trying to make the best of a bad situation, one that gets worse all the time. Understanding each others problems can only help things, surely.
At the moment controllers in the UAE live in a culture of fear, incident investigation has all been about apportioning blame and using retraining as a punishment. This means controlling becomes more conservative and inexpeditious, which means even more delays. With recent new appointments this has a chance of changing but it will not happen over night, until it does expect no real improvements.
As for flow, we need it like yesterday but no matter who brings it up we never get anywhere. Our present method is laughable and it is only because of the staff at Dubai & the ACC that we have made it work for so long. The written procedures now no longer reflect what happens in practice so it needs changing, this won't happen until we have more staff. Disco Fever is sadly mistaken, money is a problem, the package for controllers is not enough any more to attract people out here to stay. So we are always running short staffed.
Unless things change more controllers are going to vote with their feet, I'm not the only one who already has.
FT
At the moment controllers in the UAE live in a culture of fear, incident investigation has all been about apportioning blame and using retraining as a punishment. This means controlling becomes more conservative and inexpeditious, which means even more delays. With recent new appointments this has a chance of changing but it will not happen over night, until it does expect no real improvements.
As for flow, we need it like yesterday but no matter who brings it up we never get anywhere. Our present method is laughable and it is only because of the staff at Dubai & the ACC that we have made it work for so long. The written procedures now no longer reflect what happens in practice so it needs changing, this won't happen until we have more staff. Disco Fever is sadly mistaken, money is a problem, the package for controllers is not enough any more to attract people out here to stay. So we are always running short staffed.
Unless things change more controllers are going to vote with their feet, I'm not the only one who already has.
FT
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IMHO...
It is not fair to expect the ACC or APP controllers to work with the rapid increase in traffic levels at DXB without the input from a computerised tool such as Compass or Meastro.
These tools are designed to take distance (on STAR) and performance into account to achieve a (configured) spacing requirement on final.
The same tool would be used by APP and ACC, and thus there would be little or no room for interpretaion or personal artisic impression.
The tool says slow him down, you slow him down, the tool says hold, you hold ....
But hey that is just MHO.
Invictus
It is not fair to expect the ACC or APP controllers to work with the rapid increase in traffic levels at DXB without the input from a computerised tool such as Compass or Meastro.
These tools are designed to take distance (on STAR) and performance into account to achieve a (configured) spacing requirement on final.
The same tool would be used by APP and ACC, and thus there would be little or no room for interpretaion or personal artisic impression.
The tool says slow him down, you slow him down, the tool says hold, you hold ....
But hey that is just MHO.
Invictus
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Hey Invictus, the computerised flow system would be nice, but even without that what we could do right now is have a dedicated flow position in Dubai, who sits and works out the sequence, and then works back from that sequence the time each aircraft needs to arrive at BUBIN/DESDI/MIADA/MAXMO and passes the time to the relevant controller. Then the relevant controller does whatever they decide is needed to achieve that. The working out of the time would not be hard, as most other APP units around the world do it with no problems so why would it be different here.
Then when the poop hits the fan and we as Area controllers, in possession of the time each aircraft needs to pass the relevant inbound gate, would simply hold each aircraft until such time we could bring them in to meet said time. This would also allow us to tell each aircraft an accurate estimated arrival time, rather than now where, due to us not knowing if you are going to take aircraft from the East or West stack, we have to just guess when they will hold till, which makes the whole thing a farce.
So, someone please tell me reasons why the above system wouldn't work, and why it wouldn't make things run a lot smoother, and in the process remove most of the animosity between Area and App in one hit. Cheers.
Then when the poop hits the fan and we as Area controllers, in possession of the time each aircraft needs to pass the relevant inbound gate, would simply hold each aircraft until such time we could bring them in to meet said time. This would also allow us to tell each aircraft an accurate estimated arrival time, rather than now where, due to us not knowing if you are going to take aircraft from the East or West stack, we have to just guess when they will hold till, which makes the whole thing a farce.
So, someone please tell me reasons why the above system wouldn't work, and why it wouldn't make things run a lot smoother, and in the process remove most of the animosity between Area and App in one hit. Cheers.
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ANSA,
To be absolutely honest, there is no reason (that I can think of) why such a system should not work. I am sure that there will be those that differ or have other valid opinions and suggestions.
Having said that,
I believe that the shortest route to the solution would be if the regulator allowed the UAE and DXB operations managers to sit down together and work it out. That group should have the autonomy to (if necessary) determine new holds, standard routings, procedures, airspace changes etc……. more importantly, they should be allowed to “trial” some concepts on one of the simulators that we have.
Naturally the regulator has the final say, but let’s be honest here, he has not worked aircraft for a very long time, and he should not be permitted to design, approve and implement any and all procedures that he thinks will work without the active participation, in the formative stages, of the UAE and DXB operations management team.
However, the regulator does not appear to trust anyone but Himself, and therefore, a machine that He approves might be acceptable to him. Thus the first course of action I would take would be a sequencing tool.
Invictus
To be absolutely honest, there is no reason (that I can think of) why such a system should not work. I am sure that there will be those that differ or have other valid opinions and suggestions.
Having said that,
I believe that the shortest route to the solution would be if the regulator allowed the UAE and DXB operations managers to sit down together and work it out. That group should have the autonomy to (if necessary) determine new holds, standard routings, procedures, airspace changes etc……. more importantly, they should be allowed to “trial” some concepts on one of the simulators that we have.
Naturally the regulator has the final say, but let’s be honest here, he has not worked aircraft for a very long time, and he should not be permitted to design, approve and implement any and all procedures that he thinks will work without the active participation, in the formative stages, of the UAE and DXB operations management team.
However, the regulator does not appear to trust anyone but Himself, and therefore, a machine that He approves might be acceptable to him. Thus the first course of action I would take would be a sequencing tool.
Invictus
