In response to Dr Pape's request for further information on the appeal hearing I would be more than happy to share the details with him, which I shall furnish directly via e-mail.

I shall then discuss with him what we can (or should) make public.

:)

Thanks "2Close". I would appreciate your sending me that on my home email, which is [email protected]

CVD in India
 

Hey Guys,

After 4 years of dejection and spending over USD70k on flight training, I finally found this post which has surely instilled some confidence back in me.

I have been a target of CVD in India and it has been very difficult for me to convince the DGCA (Director General of Civil Aviation) and DGMS (Director General of Medical Services) that I am perfectly fit to fly as per FAA Class 1 Medicals.

I failed the DGCA Class 1 medicals in 2007 and then appealed against the decision citing successful completion of flight training from USA, provided I prove to them that there is no defect from the All India Institute of Medical sciences, AIIMS (which is considered to be the top Govt medical facility in the country), and by gods grace I managed to pass the test and also take an expert opinion from an eye doctor in Mumbai who told me that I have a mild color blindness but he didn't see any major issue as I only missed out on 2 plates and also passed the lantern test without any trouble. After submitting the above reports I was given an appeal at Airforce station Bangalore where I was put through Ishihara and Latern test both in visually dim rooms and the latern test was conducted under dark room conditions at a distance of over 10 feet and the frequency of switching colors was after every second and I was expected to give the right answer without delay, which found dumb.. I was put through white green and red color identification test and the judgement was passed within 10 seconds that I am permanently color blind.

Since we are given only one appeal and the appeal I got was stamped permanently unfit due to CVD my career as a pilot ended there. However I am confident that I have no such problem and can carry out my duty as a pilot with equal proficiency and responsibility as any other pilot.
I am not sure if anyone from India is facing such a problem but they are then I suggest we collectively submit reports from successful cases to DGCA and Ministry of Civil Aviation to reconsider our cases and grant us Class 1 medicals.

If there is any help you can provide me with then I would surely appreciate it.

Thank you

Rohit

Rohit,

I suggest you join the Colour Vision Defective Pilots Association (CVDPA). You will learn a lot from them.

Google them to find their website.


OOW

Rohit,

if you read the full thread, the only way to go forward is to prove them wrong. Unfortunately letters to Aviation Authorities won't do the job, we'll have to take them to courts. Join and subscribe to CVDPA so that this can be fought together at an international level.

Hi everyone!

Just had the CAD test today at Gatwick, and unfortunately failed (big blow to my dreams of being an airline pilot!). However, I failed with a score of 12.68 (Was borderline on the 1st test so did it 3 times in total and the results were averaged) which is only 0.68 away from the threshold (protan).
I was told that as I was so close to threshold it may be worth my while resitting it and it may bring my average down. Anyone got any advice as to whether it's worth it?

Collective Colour Vision Thread 4
 

Who advised you on the retest, how much did they charge you, there is two versions of cad.!!

I paid £125 for the test. My session included the plates (which i failed...i knew i would), then they did the quick CAD, failed that...so i went on to do the full 15 minute CAD. I got borderline on that one so did 2 more, and they took the average of that, so i think i did both versions. (The quick one, and then the full one)

For the first part (up until the end of 1st full 15 minute CAD) I had a bloke, i forget his name...and then a lady took over.
After taking a while to get my results (she was going in and out of different rooms whilst i sat in the waiting room..presumably talking to other staff?), she eventually called me back and told me I'd failed.
She said she wouldn't advise me to redo it if I had failed it by a mile. She said that if i was to take it again they would average it over all the tests i have taken and it would possibly pull me below the 12 limit (equally...I could do worse haha). She was a lovely lady, but i'm just abit confused as to why retaking would help me. Surely averaging over all the tests does infact make it alot more difficult to pull it down below the 12 threshold...
Money making tactics or a hint that i may pass next time, god knows!?
All i know is that if i do decide to go again i'm going to take alot more breaks, i didn't and that was probably my downfall...by the 3rd one my eyes were tired, i should have stopped for a few minutes but i just wanted to get it over with!

Hi again, after ringing up CAA today I was told that the only accepted colour vision test is the CAD. However on their website Colour Vision Guidance | Medical | Personal Licences and Training it says you can do other tests as well. These tests are available at London City Uni and I asked whether results from there can be used as acceptable evidence (I was told I could). However, I once again asked about other tests (lantern, nagel anomaoscopy etc) and I was told that the only test was the CAD, despite me saying that it says on their website that other tests can be taken.
Confused! Are these other tests still accepted for a class 1?
Thanks!

Matt,
I think you would be doing yourself a favour if you got licenced in another European country where CAD is not accepted. You could try the Spectrolux lantern which is accepted in Europe.

Not that i think its the right thing to do. The right thing to do is join the CVDPA and support a legal challenge.

matt

to answer that question, the cad was designed to replace the holmes wright lantern, as it was old and was not being produced so parts were not available, as they are to be serviced ie, bulbs need replaced and colour filters need to be clean.. i believe the byne lantern is still available, to be honest all the test equipment is still available, but probably in storage at gatwick, you not going to destroy equipment which cost allot, even though it not being used. any other results that you get ie from city university for cad is still valid, after all they designed it for the CAA!!

the spectrolux is still available but in switzerland, you can google the test name and find the location and address for it..

Thanks for your replies outofwhack and Scottish.CPL!
I'm going down to London City Uni tomorrow for several colour tests; i'm hoping for the best! It's beginning to become quite costly going to and from London (I live in Manchester, UK) - so let's hope its worthwhile!
I'll let you know what the outcome is; hopefully I'll pass one of the approved tests! :)

I breathe caution in the wind, if you get this before you go to city,

check the number of error on the ishihara plates out of 15, second they will do the anomalscope with you, this test has its flaws, you will be told you need to match the red portion to the yellow portion, and the same with the red, they till tell you, you need to match it, this is not true and i have been screwed over with this, in theory a colour normal cannot match any combinations, this is why peeople find it hard to pass, i was told i must make a match, and you don't, i could not match exactly on any of them and they took a reading, 4 scale units is possible to gain but you are not told how to use it correctly.

second the lantern holmes wright, they should test at high intensity, not low, JAA protocall states testing at high, CAA do not follow this and screwed me over on that,

the cad, well you have already seen and done this,

best of luck, but be ready to accept some tests are easier, and some are harder.. :ok:

I am currently looking into Disability Discrimination Law in European countries and it seems that some are more compliant with the European Directive on Disability Discrimination than others.

Whilst CVD may not be recognised as a disability in the UK Courts (and I stress it has not been fully tested within the area of employment - the Strathclyde Police case seems to have gone quiet) it would undoubtedly fall within the definition of a disability in other countries. Therefore, it could be advisable to undertake your Class 1 Medical in one of those countries, keeping open the option that it may be possible to take the national aviation authority to Court on grounds of disability discrimination, should they refuse to issue a Class 1 medical purely on CVD grounds.

My resources are limited therefore I don't expect my research to be completed in the immediately foreseeable future, however, maybe the CVDPA could look further into this.

:)

So i'm back from City Uni - scored 10.9 on the CAD test first time. However, I'm thinking that the CAA will probably want to average that score with the others I got at CAA Gatwick (ringing up tomorrow to find out). That in itself is plain stupid as technically if I had not done the test before, this would have been an outright pass! Yellow-blue on the CAD was better than average apparently. Also, the fact I scored differently surely shows the test isn't 100% accurate/sensitive....hmmm!
Nagel anomoloscope - I was told that if I couldn't find a match to get it as close as possible but make sure I make the point that imo they don't match perfectly. (I did this on basically every one)

Don't know the results of the other tests I did yet; I shall let you know when I get them!

Collective Colour Vision Thread 4
 

That's what I've always said the cad is a arcade game and yes gatwick will average the result, if they don't they are breaking the guidelines but they are known as rule breakers. All i can say is welcome to the battle of proving you are colour normal or safe, I'm green weak and I scored 7.44 and the pass is 6 scale units or less so 1.44 over the limit did city offer you the fast cad or the long version , if you get 4 units on the nagal then you are good to go.

Well I'm hoping they'll give me some lee-way! I need this pass haha! Hopefully they'll be kind to me when I ring up...
They did the 9 minute version and I passed it first time (got borderline at CAA and had to repeat it so they could calculate an average).
Not sure about my results on the Nagel yet - I have no inkling how well I did either.
I can understand how you must feel; it's really frustrating and for you probably more-so as the lower threshold for green makes it even harder to reduce it by averaging.

well what ever happens i wish you luck, but you will get expereice with the BS that the CAA/JAA impose, one one had you would have been better going the city and getting that result, and then giving it to gatwick, but thats how it went..

The other main issue we all seem to share is the unfairness of the pass for ishihara, 13/15 is a pass on the test, but caa want the full 15/15, this constitutes the standards of the RAF, one doctor at gatwick said to me we need to be fail, and i laughed and said dont talk :mad: you work and represent an organisation that does not believe in being fare.

my problem was the cad test for me was the long 15 min one and i was tired and red eyed after it, and to be honest i was making mistakes and a few targets i new i pressed the wrong direction but could clearly see them..

Unless you want a night rating as a LAPL, in which case it seems you are safe with a 9/13 pass. Doh!

yeah dobbin1,

The thing is though, LAPL is controlled by EASA regulations, but the cad is not easa approved, i see they have it on the caa website as an alternative, but its not approved by EASA.

I still believe that the reason for the lower pass on the ishihara is because it tying in with the ICAO standards that are lower than the test its self, let not forget that EASA is not ICAO compliant. The colour vision test that are used are based on brightness, and not recignition, ie a light gun test is a bright red.green.white..

your LAPL medical is based on GP desision to fly, and not by CAA, this is the reason that caa issued an amendment gardening night vrf regualtions, becuase suspect that the amount of LAPL night application will increase..

whose of you like myself that are deemed cp2 by acheiveing 13/15 plates, but are colour normal, but deemed colour unsafe.. utter sh**

Just got my results from City Uni :
Ishihara 38-Plate test - (25 numerical designs used) Score 3 out of 25 correct
CAD (Colour Assessment & Diagnosis Test) Classification: Protan deficiency Colour Vision Thresholds:Red-Green: 10.93 X “normal” mean threshold* Yellow-Blue: 0.98 X “normal” mean threshold*
Farnsworth D15 Test Pass
American Optical Company (H.R.R) Plates (2nd Edition) Score 18 out of 20 correct
City University Test, 2nd Edition Score 10 out of 10 correct
Nagel Anomaloscope Matching range: 60-65
Holmes Wright Lantern (type A) In Mesopic viewing with high brightness: 6 errors: 1st run: 2 errors 2nd and 3rd runs: 4 errors (Green called ‘White’, White called ‘Green’). In Scotopic viewing with high brightness: 6 errors.1st run: 2 errors 2nd and 3rd runs: 4 errors (Green called ‘White’, White called ‘Green’).

Don't really understand the Nagel Anomaloscope result, but I'm guessing that's a fail! Forwarded these to the CAA, now the waiting game begins...

the nagel will be a fail, sorry, 4 scale units or less..

lantern test result are very typical of the' white/green confusion,

only thing that will happen is that caa will look at the results of cad, and they should average your results with them to what you did at city, im sorry if this relpy is negative, i hope you get a positive result, but be prepared!!

Ahhh, thanks for the info on the nagel!
It's weird how the CAD suggests im red colour deficient yet the lantern suggests a green deficiency!

I'm prepared for the negative outcome - I shall go back to UCL and do the CAD again and hopefully bring my average down! (At least if I do badly there I don't have to submit my result and just do it until I get another pass to bring down the average!)

hey matt

the cad has diagnosed you as red deficient, but the lanterns say your green, i would have thought you would have had more errors with the red/green lights, again white green is more common for both sides..

the issue is sometimes with the Illuminance ie is Mesopic is not pitch black, nore a dusk/dawn and really the test is run in normal room lighting, and if you fail a run of the 9 lights, then you are night adapted..

the d15 and the city tests are less demanding, and easier to pass, transport canada have the 13/15 pass for the ishihara, but the accept the d15 test, as an alternative.

im supprised that they didnt do the PAPI simulator, its not a test as such bu what they used to test the cad on!!

im wondering if i should attend city and do a few runs, and see if i can reduce the results, still not sure, but when i did the test at gatwick the did the full test and not the short one to begin with, which i have gave them hell over..

Hey Scottish! I was never offered the PAPI test at city or at Gatwick...didn't know it was a valid test either looking at the requirements for colour vision... Either way, knowing now that I did manage to pass the CAD I'm definitely inclined to go to city and repeat the CAD a few times and use the results to get my average down (if this result doesn't drag it down enough). I'm sure if I asked city would allow me to come and do 2 or 3 CADs in one session to get a few results. Just a bit of a pain now; I've passed in my mind and that should be merited...it's quite costly travelling down from Manchester and having the test redone! I'm currently just waiting for the CAA to get back to me about whether they consider me a pass or fail after they perform some maths on my results Ugh ! (I've still only been told my average by them, I specifically requested each score individually off them, but they just sent me my average out again with a pretty little graph that makes little sense to me... ) God knows how long that will take...

ive just re-read the caa presentation on the cad, and from both our experiences, they say its 100 % accurate and % sensitive, so really come to think about it, you should have got the same reading as the first one at gatwick, because according to caa colour vision does not change lol..

and the way it reads, there is nothing in the standards that states if within a limit or boarderline, you need to redue the test and average the score, AGAIN CAA how the :mad: if that correct and factual..

haha Scottish! You are right! I have recently graduated with a degree in Biology and I can tell you now, a test that is 100% accurate doesn't exist...and the fact I got 2 different scores suggests the test may be open to external variables (thus unreliable and from a scientific standpoint open to being rejected as a trustworthy test).

And yeah, i also noticed they never mention anything about borderline...I'm still at a loss as to what that means! I asked at city and they didn't know either, they just say pass or fail and nothing about borderline!

gatwick says if you fall between let say for dutan, 6 and 7 units they can retest you!! ie to average out the score, so is it accurate!!!

if city is saying the latter ie, if you score 6.01 its still a fail, i was also told that any readings from previous tests ' must be taken into the averaging' stage, erm where does it say that, and there i no set procedure for cad, if you goto city let me know and ill get you to ask some questions lol

Ok i have been reading the EASA medical book, now im confused as to the wording of this, as we all know caa shows first 15 plates, ie no errors, but under the EASA guidliness as the below says,

to pass the ishihara test, nothing about the first 15 plates no errors.. to me that says to the standard of the ishihara test 13/15, CAA get a grip and stop arsing about, make this a fair standard...


MED.B.075 Colour vision
(a) Applicants shall be required to demonstrate the ability to perceive readily the colours that are necessary for the safe
performance of duties.
(b) Examination
(1) Applicants shall pass the Ishihara test for the initial issue of a medical certificate.
(2) Applicants who fail to pass in the Ishihara test shall undergo further colour perception testing to establish whether
they are colour safe.
(c) In the case of Class 1 medical certificates, applicants shall have normal perception of colours or be colour safe

Do we have different documents? This is from the EASA AMC to Part Med:-

My bold

The full AMC document is here:-

https://easa.europa.eu/agency-measur...bin%20crew.pdf

huh, ill check the document is got from EASA website Dobbin1

thanks mate..

You are reading two different but connected documents.

MED B.075 is taken from EU Regulation 1178/2011 (Aircrew Regulation) Annex IV and this simply provides the regulatory framework for medical requirements.


AMC1 MED B.075 is taken from the Acceptable Means of Compliance, which is the document which tells the authority how they achieve compliance with the regulation.

This may seem like unnecessary duplication of effort and there is a lot of legroom in that argument.

Look at Part-FCL; the regulatory framework is in EU 1178/2011, attached to which is the AMC and on top of that you have the CAA's very own CAP 804. Between the three of them they present an absolute minefield of documentary, indecipherable crap which could have been easily combined into one document a fraction of the size of these three put together. The duplication is staggering, navigating them is an absolute nightmare, some essential areas were omitted from the original release and for extra effect, they've even managed to include some contradiction.

Surprised?

Collective Colour Vision Thread 4
 

Ah ok thanks

Collective Colour Vision Thread 4
 

Guys I'm not going to spend much more time on this subject, lets face facts that colour vision standards are unfair, I've read back on the previous threads and we could argue till we are blue in the face but its not going to change anything, and before anyone starts on the c.v.d pilots area it's not going to change anything sure Arthur pape changed a standard in that country but nothing will move the standard. To be brunt on you get a colour vision restriction after doing all the tests regardless of boarder line results, move on with your lives and alternative careers cause its not worth the hassle And heart ache, I should know. I don't apologise for my forwardness but its time to move on people.

Collective Colour Vision Thread 4
 

I'm sorry you feel this way Scottish but people should not give up on fighting for a crime that is being committed and has been for a long time. It is the basic reason why we have laws and courts, because injustice exists and people should fight for their rights. I know a lot of people that have not given up, are cvd's and fly. They are the example we should follow instead of allowing current obstacles to prevail.

yeah but that's in Australia via Arthur!

tell me about the crime being committed!!

If you have youth on your side then keep building your hours. I think we will see legal proceedings in Europe over this within a few years.

Believe me - the only obstacle is the money to run a legal case. Circa XEU500k i bet. The reason why all us CVDs can't get the money together is because we aren't synchronized in our frustration - you cant keep banging your head against the wall - so you switch off. I was devastated as a young man over this in the UK 30 years ago [and mildy p$$sed off ever since]. Moving to OZ was the option I took eventually.

If we could wake all those CVDs that switched off we would be much larger force. That is one thread of work being tackled by the CVDPA (Arthur) and associates.

Dr Arthur Pape is presenting a paper to a major aeromedical conference in Chicago in May which will question the NTSB findings on the Tallahasee accident which was partly blamed on a CVD copilot. These are all things that are going to be of value to our cause because it's the only 'so called evidence' the authorities have.

Individually we've all believed that if we just do that 'other test' we can pass it. What motivates us? We rightly suspected that colour discrimination doesnt come in to flying safely. It might have been used a bit before the advent of radio but it isnt used now. If only we hadn't all blown so much money trailing around the UK and Europe trying to pass any of a bunch of bogus tests we could have run and won the case years ago.

So, everybody, empower the man that has the experience of two legal wins againsts the aviation authorities [and they are all the same] and is willing to coordinate the fight beyond ozzie shores. Join the cvdpa.

dont get me wrong, im still interested in the whole area, i just tired of not seeing any resolve, and the continuous circle im seeing..

Be assured that Arthur is very determined to cause/assist change all over the globe.

He's a busy GP doctor but fighting the aviation colour standard has been a large part of his life. He's back on the case after his legal wins in the 80s and 90s - now that we have a large group of CVD airline copilots (that cant pass any colour test) each clocking up 6000+ hours by day and night in various airlines who want to make them captains. Hence setting up the CVDPA which is currently advising a legal case within Australia for these pilots.

As mentioned I am an ex pom, cvd commercial pilot and I might have to return to old blighty one day so I've met with him and know how devoted he is.

Hi Scottish,

I know how incredibly frustrating it can be, believe me. Although we're far more fortunate here in Australia that you poor guys in Europe, there is still discrimination occuring here. I've failed every colour vision test available and so my medical still restricts me & others like me from exercising the full privileges of our ATPL licences. There have been many times in my 15 years of flying when I have often thought it would be easier to give up as I am unable to fulfil my career goals. In doing that though, I would fail not only myself, but future generations of pilots who would continue to suffer the same injustices.

The most frustrating part for me is that I fly professionally for a living and so can see first hand just how irrelevant to the 'safe performance' of a pilots duties all these tests actually are. They prove absolutely nothing aside from the fact that we are colour defective, which we already know anyway!

Australian CVD's once also had similar restrictions to Europe and it was only due to Arthur's persistance to mount a legal challenge in the 1980's that we now enjoy a great deal more freedom in comparison to you guys. As OOW mentioned, the job is not quite finished here yet. We remain optimistic of a positive legal outcome in Australia sometime this year, which can then be used as evidence to prove to the rest of the world that the colour perception standard is a crock of BS!

I also speak with Arthur on a regular basis and I know he is extremely dedicated to help others internationally as are all CVDPA members including myself. To be successful though, we need to stop talking about all these irrelevant tests and start talking about ways to unite collectively and mount legal action. That is the only way we're going to win this fight!