Smoking
 

I was just wondering about the following

As a young fellow i was foolish and ignorant to the world and smoked cannabis, not in large amounts but an odd smoke every so often. In a mdeical is a drug test done and if so how long does it actually take to exit your system. Any help would be appreciated. Some things in life u regret!
Cheers
Flameboy

Well I heard on fairly good authority that it stays in your blood for up to 30 days, and can be traced in urine for this period.

Beyond that it can still be traced in fingernail and hair growth (i believe) for up to 8months, although I doubt even the medical bods at the CAA will look that closely!

I'm sure there are people in the industry which have made the same 'mistake' (if you can call it that) as you, i suppose it all depends on how long ago it was, and when the impending "Pee into this glass tube please" date is!

At the end of the day, there are seriously conflicting opinions regarding the long term effects of said drug. In the short term however, I'm sure said passtime and a career in aviation do not mix. (Unless you can see yourself in a Servisair jacket)

Yeh about 30 days.

Those who want to cheat the system choose drugs with a shorter half life eg heroin, crack, charlie.

The skin/hair test isn't (legally) that reliable a test.

Best to find a better,healthier,legal way to get your highs.

The dope usually gets you in the end, despite Mr Blunketts assertions that it's a "safe" drug.

Thanks for the replies everyone.

I smoked about 2 months ago, i was unaware at the time of the possible implications of wat smoking the drug could mean for a possible career and immeadiately regretted it. Ive been worrying about it ever since as i have my class 2 in the summer.

Hopefully one small mistake wont cost me my dream.

Thanks again everyone and if anyone has anything else to add please do.

Flameboy_alpha

A mistake is an accident, an unintentional error. The taking of drugs is an intentional act.

Don't twist the English language to suit your own purposes.

You say that you made the "mistake" of being an occasional pot smoker when you were a young boy, but that was only 2 months ago. So what do we have? - An accident prone juvenile with a drug habit whose only remorse is that he might get busted at the medical! I think that by any set of standards you are, at this time, unfit for aviation.

Perhaps the best course of action for you is to defer your flying plans, and take the time to sort out your life priorities and clean up your act, whilst staying firmly on the ground.

Old Smokey

I believe it stays in your hair for a period of 90 days.

Old Smokey, everyone does things they regret, I would call you a liar if you said that you haven't. Do you think this drug is so wrong because it is illegal or because it impairs judgement?

If the former then what happens if it was smoked legally in Holland and to the latter I doubt that it would impair your judgement 2 months after taking it.

Really? I enjoy a drink but that doesn't make me an alcoholic? Can someone be accident prone if they've yet to have an accident?

More seriously, I would say though weed and flying aren't a good combination. Remember that if you were to get in an accident the caa may well drug test you, read 'the killing zone' by Paul A. Craig. Lots of well presented to the point facts.:ok:

UK prisons find evidence of cannabis in urine six weeks so I believe.

Flameboy - I think smokey has got a point, smoking cannabis is fair enough...do what you want, but you're in the wrong profession!

Those of you that have smoked cannabis will know what I'm talking about when I say that it is dangerous to do anything except lie down, whilst under the influence!

It would be interesting to hear from any dutch based drivers who enjoy a smoke and what the policy is over there.

I have / do smoke on an infrequent basis and would be happy to defend it.

That said, I'm not a pilot.

Yours provocatively

ROC

Hang on, the boy's shown some remorse.......


Whether us old timer's like it or not, about half the younger population enjoy the weed on a regular basis. At least this chap has seen the error of his ways.

Can we give him the benefit of the doubt, or is the risk of him "re-offending" too great?

He does appear to regret his actions. I say give him a chance.

Besides, if the urine testing doesn't catch him out, a tendency to answer "yeh man" to every question, a constant stupid grin, eventaul paranoia and an inssatiable appetite for frosties at 1 in the morning, is bound to give him away.

Well we old timers used to stagger out of the pub or mess and quite happily scream off down the road. Judging from some of the posts on PPRUNE, mess nights haven't got less boozy. I can't see why a young 'un having the odd spliff should be vilified. I would expect him to stay on the ground a while afterwards though. How many of you have flown with a"slight" hangover? Go on, be honest.

Im sure there aren't many who can honestly say that they have never had experience when they 'shouldnt' have driven, let alone flown!

LondonJ, I have done many many things that I regret, and I have made many mistakes in my life. To list them would consume Danny's entire band width, so I'll list those that I have NEVER made.

.1. I have NEVER used illicit drugs, and I never will.

.2. I have NEVER operated an aircraft whilst under the influence or after effects of any mind altering drug, including alcohol. This personal discipline once extended to my refusal, after having 1 beer, to operate a mercy flight to save a life whilst working as an Aero-Medical pilot. A dispensation had been offered, but refused.

You asked - "Do you think this drug is so wrong because it is illegal or because it impairs judgement?" I couldn't give a damn about it's legality or not, I do not have a very healthy respect for the law, it is an ass. Read other posts I've made, even as a non smoker I regularly condone the use of "illegal" smoking (of tobacco) by my crew in flight. It DOES impair judgement, and that is of serious concern to aviation. I have seen countless "flashbacks" from ex drug users even months after their last hit.

No LondonJ, on the information given, I don't think that you're an alcoholic. Nor is Flameboy_alpha a drug addict. There is little evidence for marijuana being a drug of addiction, perhaps psychologically dependant upon the high, but not physiologically dependant. If, as you pose, the dope was legally consumed in Holland then no law has been broken until he tries to operate an aircraft. Then he is clearly in breach of the law. Read other Pprune posts regarding random drug testing for pilots in the Netherlands.

Aviation has ZERO TOLERANCE of drug use amongst flight crews. I would defend the right of anyone to "do their own thing" so long as that does not jeopardise other peolple's safety. I would defend your (legal) right to drink until blind drunk, but do all in my power to prevent you from driving or flying where you might jeopardise another's life. If I had the time I might join Flameboy_alpha in campaining to abolish a stupid law, if indeed final research shows it to be stupid, but never never allow him or any other person using mind altering drugs to enter an aircraft as crew. Dutch society is NOT falling apart as a result of it's legitimisation of the use of marijuana, but KLM will soon fall apart if their flight crews regularly use it. Frankly, I feel safer amongst the 'pot heads' in Amsterdam than amongst the drunks.

Importantly, the jury is still out in it's decision of the long term effects of marijuana, although the short term effects are well known, as is the possibility of "flashbacks".

I don't agree with you got caught, I don't think that he's shown any remorse at all. He's scared out of his mind at being caught at the medical, of getting busted, but no show of remorse for what he has done. I see this every day with the ex drug users at rehab where I work part time. Here's the recovery record - there's a very high (80%) recovery rate for persons who are genuinely remorseful for the effect upon their careers, their families, and other people they've brought down. Amongst those who were busted, yep, they're remorseful allright, remorseful at being busted, and THEIR recovery rate is something of the order of only 10%. Almost all of the heavy 'serious' drug users that I see started with pot. That doesn't mean that a pot smoker will graduate to the hard stuff, but they're on the way there, even if they don't finish the journey.

Reference has been made to Flameboy_alpha's having been vilified. By whom? I said twice in my apparently inflammatory post that he should defer his flying plans until he has his life in order, i.e.

.1........"you are, at this time, unfit for aviation", and
.2........"Perhaps the best course of action for you is to defer your flying plans"

And why do I take such a firm unyielding approach? - Because day to day exposure to recovering addicts shows me that it requires a lot of TLC, but mostly a good firm verbal kick in the butt, and never never accepting that it was a "mistake", it's a deliberate action.

No LondonJ, I've never read 'the killing zone'. On a daily basis I walk through the DYING zone. Those dying of self-inflicted injuries who started way way back on marijuana.

I was trying to give a young man a jolt of reality. A jolt that I hoped might have turned around his life. If you can't understand that, then.........I shouldn't have bothered.

Regards,

Old Smokey

That was heavy, man......

If I only I wasn't too stoned to read the entire tyrade!

Say Smokey, what is the rehab scene like over in Singapore?

It just strikes me as a little odd that in a country with one of the toughest stances on drugs in the world, they still have the compassion (and funds) to run re-hab centres.

Or maybe there was just a hint of a white lie scattered throughout your post?

Half of your facts are wrong, you dont even attempt to back them up

QUOTE

"there's a very high (80%) recovery rate for persons who are genuinely remorseful for the effect upon their careers, their families, and other people."

Says who?

QUOTE

"I see this every day with the ex drug users at rehab where I work part time."

Ah - must be one of those new part time jobs where you go in every day?

QUOTE

"I have seen countless "flashbacks" from ex drug users even months after their last hit."

Maybe you have, but I don't know anybody (and i know a few) that have experienced that!

Then again, maybe im just imagining it all!

DTA Detection

Detection time - Oral Fluid - Urine

Marijuana - 12-24 hrs - days to weeks*
Opiates - 12-24hrs - 2-4 days
Amphetamines - 24-48hrs - 2-4 days
Methamphetamines - 24-48hrs - 2-4 days
Benzodiazapines - 24-48hrs - 1 week
Cocaine - 12-24hrs - 2-3 days

* infrequent use 1-3 days, regular use 1-3 weeks, chronic use 1-3 months

Detection time differs from person to person, and depends on a number of factors, age, weight, sex, metabolism, usage and product quality / dosage.

Masking agents / adulterants testing are also part of the test routine. Oral agents are far more difficult to mask than urine samples, but having said that, the adulterant tests are now sentive and comprehensive.

For example, we normally check for a range of factors including standard urine parameters such as protiens, luekocytes, temperature etc. In addition adulterants such as bleach are checked. We had one chap come in for testing as he had caused an incident. He made his donation into the cup and it was duley checked. I was then asked to ensure the sample hadnt got mixed with another. He was the only one for the day. He came back pregnant! He was tested positive to prohibited substances when he was blood tested shortly thereafter. He was duely dismissed.

Two major points are raised from this issue. Lying gets you a bigger kick up the butt, and secondly he was will to risk the lives of his workmates, multi million dollar machinery, fixtures, and his own well being. It wasnt that the drugs were going to bite him that day, it was his whole attitude and it never changed until he died in a car accident. He caused it and his BAC% was in the near fatal range. Trouble was, he also killed a young lady and a child.

My biggest beef with drugs testing is the procedure is testing for drugs and alcohol. It is a very narrow band of influences on "fitness for work." In some workplaces now they are testing fitness for work specifically. This entails a 10sec test after initial setup which cannot be faked or adulterated. It is proving whether you are fit for the duties you are tasked to do. Being fatigued for example can be as nasty as being over the alcohol limit with often fatal results.

The other side is attitude. Your workmates / clientel have to wear the consequences of whatever you took or drank as well. It just aint worth it!

Old Smokey, whilst I respect your obvious passion, I must question some of your facts.


Isn't caffeine a more likely "gateway" to the hard stuff than pot ?

Guess I chose the wrong week to give up coffee!!!

I came in pretty heavily on this one, and the seriousness of the matter requires that I qualify a number of statements that I’ve made, and, to add a fair degree of personal opinion. I do have very strong opinions in this area, one in which it is very easy to become emotionally involved, particularly when people close to you have been so badly hurt by “the drug scene”. On a daily basis I see people playing out their ‘end game’ in the very long road to ruin caused by abuse of dangerous drugs.

Note the following –

I am a qualified Airline Pilot.

I am a qualified Performance Engineer.

I am not a qualified Medical Practitioner.

So where, as questioned by +'ve ROC ,does my involvement lie in drug rehabilitation? I live in a country (Singapore) where draconian laws prevail in relation to drug offenders. The Government’s and society’s attitude is punitive, not corrective or compassionate. There is negligible compassion for drug offenders, and rehab centres are virtually an extension of the prison system. Ex inmates of the prison system and the rehab system report that prison is the preferred option. The rehab system is cold turkey, barbed wire, and armed guards. Upon release it’s a simple case of being kicked out the gate and sink or swim. Without assistance or support, they usually sink. The only charity available is the voluntary assistance of some organizations, and those people willing to give an interim home to those ex addicts on the way back to normal society. I fall into the latter category, my home is available to up to 4 persons at a time who are ex rehab and re-entering the normal world. I am not alone, when I am away there are others to help. I have come to know them very well, and the opinions that I’ve expressed come from the many conversations with my ‘house guests’.

I spoke of the very high recovery rate for persons who were genuinely remorseful for the effect upon their careers, their families, and other people, and of the low recovery (repeat offense) rate for those who have no remorse for other than being caught. +'ve ROC asks “what is my source?”. My information source is my own experience. It is indeed rare to learn of the second offence for the truly remorseful person, it’s extremely common amongst those who displayed great bitterness at being ‘busted’. I do not need to refer to statistics, I do not need to go beyond my own house with it’s living statistics.

I do indeed see countless "flashbacks" from ex drug users months after their last hit. I’ve no idea of the type of mind altering poison causing these, there are many, and occurrence is AFTER withdrawal from regular use. If you haven’t seen them +'ve ROC, perhaps it’s because you haven’t stopped yet. I have my own horrific flashbacks of a different kind, I cannot erase the memory of a night spent with an inconsolable lady whose boyfriend was facing the death penalty the following morning after taking the ‘rap’ for her. He took her guilt to his unmarked grave. When you say that you ‘know a few’ +'ve ROC, how many do you know that paid the ultimate price?

Got caught, I see where you’re coming from. I’m not suggesting for a moment that marijuana is in any way conducive to graduating to the abuse of more dangerous drugs. Such a suggestion is totally ludicrous, both from the physiological and psychological standpoint. From the sociological standpoint however, in a society where marijuana is illegal, it can only be obtained ‘underground’, and the same dealers have much to gain in pushing more dangerous, more addictive drugs to their customers, and they do. Although all of my ‘house guests’ were users of much more dangerous drugs, they all began with pot. It would be interesting to observe if the graduation to more potent drugs still occurs in the Netherlands, where pot consumers have no need to go underground to obtain their supplies.

This whole thread began on a marijuana issue, and if marijuana was the end of the line for drug abuse, then I’d have little concern for it’s use, except when issues such as operating an aircraft and endangering other’s lives arise. Northern Chique’s excellent and well balanced post illustrates this well.

It has almost a case of déjà vu for me to read some of the responses here, I hear them every day for people who have progressed far beyond the point of safe manageable recreational drug use. The tactics are familiar – minimise the gravity of your actions (mistake not intentional), discredit those who would offer an alternative, the list goes on.

If I were to go back and re-write my original post, I would change nothing excepting the possible inclusion of better worded arguments. I would still suggest to Flameboy_alpha that he defer his plans until he had got his life and priorities in order. I still suggest that, and sincerely hope that he can, and may one day live out his dream of becoming a pilot. DEFER, not cancel.

In the meantime, I will continue to endeavour to deter young would-be drug users from taking the first step. It may take several years to progress to the last step, but in this country, for right or for wrong, the last step is into infinity at the end of the hangman’s rope.

Stay Clean,

Old Smokey

Old Smokey, the passion in your argument is almost palpable, I guess because of your personal involvment with this terrible affliction.

Don't get me wrong, I am under no illusion at all, that hard drug users are very sick (ill) people.

I do have one question, without getting in to the rights and wrongs of hanging, who exactly gets hung in Singapore, the pushers, or users ? Does it make a difference? It sounds like Singapore has as bigger problem as we do .

Old Smokey, I have no reason to doubt the personal history you have written and as such I must applaud your work. The key point I was trying to make is that you should not indulge in mind altering drugs when your flight status is active, as referenced by the end of my post "I would say though weed and flying aren't a good combination". And provided he doesn't indulge anymore then there is no problem, what's done is done. Let's say he's tried it a handful of times in his life. Will it lead to flashbacks at the level of a serial abuser?

And I do take your comments about the jolt of reality though I was getting at the same thing in a slightly softer way. Flameboy basically next time you're in the position to smoke just think about this: 'is being spaced out for a few hours really worth risking your's and others lives, destroying your dream and probably losing a very expensive bit of hardware in the process'.

Just to clarify, the book recommendation was for flameboy and I reckon it should be required reading for every pilot as it is far more practical than knowing the intricacies of the wankel engine, but that's a different conversation for a different day.

Regards,

LJ

got caught,

I don't want to hijack the medical forum with a conversation drifting into the legal area, but it is an extension of the current thread, so I hope that the moderators can allow it to stay here.

I was hoping that someone more versed in Singapore criminal law may have picked up this thread and answered your question, but as this was not so, I'll give it my best shot.

You asked whether it was the pushers or users who got the death penalty in Singapore. Users, per se, do not receive the death penalty, and even dealers in drugs such as marijuana do not, as the death penalty only applies to certain 'serious' drugs such as heroin etc. The primary criteria depends upon the quantity of the particular drug found in the guilty party's possession, and this, in the legal context, separates the user from the trafficker. Trafficking of the drugs on the prohibited list carries a mandatory death penalty. Even if it could be proven 'beyond reasonable doubt' that a user had a stock of a prohibited drug entirely for his/her own personal use, it would still make him/her a trafficker. Malaysian laws are very similar, and just as strictly enforced.

I'm no statistician, but I would not think that Singapore had as significant a drug 'problem' as the Western countries, and certainly has less of a problem than other countries in the region such as the Philippines, where methamphetamine abuse (shabu) is rampant. It's just so much more obvious here because of the draconian laws, and their unremitting application.

LondonJ, I apologise if I sounded somewhat antagonistic. You've come across with the reasoned softer approach, and I attacked with a sledge-hammer. As I said, it is an emotive issue when you see the end result on a daily basis. I believe that we were both aiming for the same result, but in different ways. With reference to the 'flashbacks' that I've seen (in others), I'd have to repeat that the people that I've been exposed to had been exposed to a huge cocktail of drugs over the years, and impossible for me to identify which of these was causing the problem. I can relate 2 types of personal experience for 'single drug users' however, the first being a pilot friend in the U.K. who used marijuana regularly, and suffered pretty horrendous flashbacks after quitting. It was such a problem to him that he resumed using it in much smaller doses and weaned himself off it over the next couple of years. This seemed to work. The second, much more frightening experience has been with the many ex methamphetamine users, who seem to never completely recover psychologically after withdrawal. My completely medically unqualified opinion is that heavy and prolonged methamphetamine use seems to do permanent psychological / neuronal damage, whereas ex heroin users commonly recover completely.

By way of a little private research, I posed a question to my doctor yesterday as to where I could refer a friend whom I suspected may have a drug problem. After hesitation, and with a blank look on his face he said "I gues you could try Alcoholics Anonymous, they'd probably be able to refer you to someone". Singapore compassion at it's finest.

Just for the record got caught, I find the death penalty abhorrent, with the possible exception of the totally unforgiveable crime of treason (and even then I could not put the rope around someone's neck, so I could not ask my government to do it for me).

Best Regards,

Old Smokey

it takes 28 days for it to come out of your system but if u munch on a bar of soap, yes soap! it turns urine cloudy and therefore interferes with the result. In prisons they do this beacause if they have been tested and urine is cloudy, the prison isnt allowed to test again for another 28 days, therefore its out of there system by time re test.

same with alcohol, if in a prison u are found to be drunk you can say you drunk mouthwash, it contains alcohol therefore they cannot charge you although some prisons have stopped selling the certain mouhtwashes in their canteens!

god i sound like a right junkie dont i! lol.