AMEs: Does the Duty of Care stop here?
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AMEs: Does the Duty of Care stop here?
Hi there,
I recently failed a UK CAA Class 1 and was looking to appeal it. I am aware of the basic guidance from the CAA site regarding this matter. When I attempted to contact my AME about it , he just had his secretary forward me the same link to the same CAA site. I feel that I would really like to touch base with him to get some direction on the appeals procedure regarding acquiring expert opinion/reasoning for appeal request etc (surely with all his years of experience, he will at very least be able to provide vague direction or basic tips on what they are requiring), but do I have a right to this or do I have to go it alone?
I previously failed my Class 2 but successfully appealed it, I had to complete this process with zero assistance from a different AME, I decided just to appeal it directly to the CAA myself after he offered to help in return for £175 per hour for his clearly over-priced and unnecessary "advice".
I feel a little fobbed-off by my current AME who I've paid £700+ (which to me is quite a lot of money) and feel its a little cheap (not to mention inhumane) for him to not even provide the most basic shred of guidance, but at the same time I am unfamiliar with this process and unsure of what my rights are here so I am not sure who is being unreasonable with regards expectation here, me or him?
Thank you,
Sarah
I recently failed a UK CAA Class 1 and was looking to appeal it. I am aware of the basic guidance from the CAA site regarding this matter. When I attempted to contact my AME about it , he just had his secretary forward me the same link to the same CAA site. I feel that I would really like to touch base with him to get some direction on the appeals procedure regarding acquiring expert opinion/reasoning for appeal request etc (surely with all his years of experience, he will at very least be able to provide vague direction or basic tips on what they are requiring), but do I have a right to this or do I have to go it alone?
I previously failed my Class 2 but successfully appealed it, I had to complete this process with zero assistance from a different AME, I decided just to appeal it directly to the CAA myself after he offered to help in return for £175 per hour for his clearly over-priced and unnecessary "advice".
I feel a little fobbed-off by my current AME who I've paid £700+ (which to me is quite a lot of money) and feel its a little cheap (not to mention inhumane) for him to not even provide the most basic shred of guidance, but at the same time I am unfamiliar with this process and unsure of what my rights are here so I am not sure who is being unreasonable with regards expectation here, me or him?
Thank you,
Sarah
Last edited by plane_777; 16th Oct 2019 at 23:04.
Difficult one Sarah. As you've obviously had issues with the Class 2 it would appear that your AME is not motivated to help and sadly with the CAA being a law unto themselves to be honest there's not a lot he can do anyway. I would certainly suggest researching a new one and my advice would be to seek one who has been in practise for many years and has experience of such appeals.
It's a while since I went up against the CAA over medical matters but in my career I had to do it twice and I won. However in both cases I used AME's who specialised in appealing such cases and contact details of these were provided by professional organisations such as BALPA or The Honourable Company (Formerly GAPAN) and the IPA. You might also try AOPA UK for the Class 2 situation.
In years gone by the CAA were best approached and asked who they regarded as the primary reference for the particular field of medicine to be reviewed. In one case they nominated an RAF Doctor who I consulted privately. He came down on my side straight away and told the CAA not to be so risk averse. Sadly though that is the bottom line. Whatever the CAA do, both as a Corporation and individually their aversion to taking a decision that has the slightest chance of returning to bite them overrules all else.
Good Luck.
It's a while since I went up against the CAA over medical matters but in my career I had to do it twice and I won. However in both cases I used AME's who specialised in appealing such cases and contact details of these were provided by professional organisations such as BALPA or The Honourable Company (Formerly GAPAN) and the IPA. You might also try AOPA UK for the Class 2 situation.
In years gone by the CAA were best approached and asked who they regarded as the primary reference for the particular field of medicine to be reviewed. In one case they nominated an RAF Doctor who I consulted privately. He came down on my side straight away and told the CAA not to be so risk averse. Sadly though that is the bottom line. Whatever the CAA do, both as a Corporation and individually their aversion to taking a decision that has the slightest chance of returning to bite them overrules all else.
Good Luck.
Having had issues for your Class 2 how did you prepare for your Class 1 ?
Did you enlist the help of the AME in question prior ?
Is it the same issue or a different one?
What made you think you could pass a 1 after having to appeal a 2?
Is it possible you’ve worn out your welcome at this AME?
Did you enlist the help of the AME in question prior ?
Is it the same issue or a different one?
What made you think you could pass a 1 after having to appeal a 2?
Is it possible you’ve worn out your welcome at this AME?
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Thank you for your reply.
Its kind-of a complex issue re: I had symptoms approx 13-14 years ago but I've been fine since.
The class 2 AME was a different Dr. (sorry if I didnt' make this clear initially that I have had 2 AME's one for class 1, one for class 2). Class 2 AME was money-hungry (tried to up the price of medical between that quoted on e-mail and on the day, offered assistance with my appeal only in exchange for extortionate rates (as said £175 per hour) that I never actually took him up on and he didn't send my form to the CAA for 6-7 weeks as he went on an adventure holiday (but claimed that he had!). I just remember thinking I got unlucky with this guy, lets keep it polite, but I never really perceived him as someone who had my back and he won't be someone who's services I'll be using again or who I'd ever recommend. But I didn't see the point in communicating any of this to him so...
.....I just asked the CAA if I could appeal my Class 2 independently and they said yes, so I did. (I don't even know if people commonly do this or if they always appeal through their AME)?
So I did some research and located a specialist with 35+years experience who is both a expert and also worked for the Air Force, (I figured I needed someone who was both an expert in their field and an understanding of (and experience with working with) pilots in order that he would fight my case. I read his publications and the books he had written, he had also previously worked on high profile aviation cases. He also worked for the CAA as a Consultant (So I felt he would have a good understanding of how they worked, the requirements for my class of medical and was used to interacting with them etc). He did. The class 2 appeal was successful. We won, I got my Class 2 ( & I still have it).
So this year I apply for my Class 1, the new AME (who seems a pleasant character and hasn't done anything to make me question his integrity) said that he would have to refer it to the CAA but that considering all of the above he didn't foresee there being any problem with my Class 1 considering it had all be dealt with within the last 2 years when applying for my class 2 (above), and perhaps he genuinely believed it but he couldn't have been more wrong...
....the CAA asked me to see yet another specialist who disagreed with the first specialist and I didn't get my class 1!
So my current situation involves 2 specialists both looking at the same historic information one saying I'm fit one saying I'm not! Both are attributing my symptoms to different causes, and their view of my symptoms differ as they are looking at them through the prism of their own area of expertise, depending on their respective areas of specialisation, both are Professors (so similar level), now I'm beginning to wonder what to do or where to go from here and am genuinely stumped as to what to do next. Or if there is even a point ?????
The most ironic (and possibly frustrating) thing............there's absolutely nothing at all wrong with me, I have declared everything for legal reasons but I'm just as fit to fly as the next guy!
Its kind-of a complex issue re: I had symptoms approx 13-14 years ago but I've been fine since.
The class 2 AME was a different Dr. (sorry if I didnt' make this clear initially that I have had 2 AME's one for class 1, one for class 2). Class 2 AME was money-hungry (tried to up the price of medical between that quoted on e-mail and on the day, offered assistance with my appeal only in exchange for extortionate rates (as said £175 per hour) that I never actually took him up on and he didn't send my form to the CAA for 6-7 weeks as he went on an adventure holiday (but claimed that he had!). I just remember thinking I got unlucky with this guy, lets keep it polite, but I never really perceived him as someone who had my back and he won't be someone who's services I'll be using again or who I'd ever recommend. But I didn't see the point in communicating any of this to him so...
.....I just asked the CAA if I could appeal my Class 2 independently and they said yes, so I did. (I don't even know if people commonly do this or if they always appeal through their AME)?
So I did some research and located a specialist with 35+years experience who is both a expert and also worked for the Air Force, (I figured I needed someone who was both an expert in their field and an understanding of (and experience with working with) pilots in order that he would fight my case. I read his publications and the books he had written, he had also previously worked on high profile aviation cases. He also worked for the CAA as a Consultant (So I felt he would have a good understanding of how they worked, the requirements for my class of medical and was used to interacting with them etc). He did. The class 2 appeal was successful. We won, I got my Class 2 ( & I still have it).
So this year I apply for my Class 1, the new AME (who seems a pleasant character and hasn't done anything to make me question his integrity) said that he would have to refer it to the CAA but that considering all of the above he didn't foresee there being any problem with my Class 1 considering it had all be dealt with within the last 2 years when applying for my class 2 (above), and perhaps he genuinely believed it but he couldn't have been more wrong...
....the CAA asked me to see yet another specialist who disagreed with the first specialist and I didn't get my class 1!
So my current situation involves 2 specialists both looking at the same historic information one saying I'm fit one saying I'm not! Both are attributing my symptoms to different causes, and their view of my symptoms differ as they are looking at them through the prism of their own area of expertise, depending on their respective areas of specialisation, both are Professors (so similar level), now I'm beginning to wonder what to do or where to go from here and am genuinely stumped as to what to do next. Or if there is even a point ?????
The most ironic (and possibly frustrating) thing............there's absolutely nothing at all wrong with me, I have declared everything for legal reasons but I'm just as fit to fly as the next guy!
Last edited by plane_777; 20th Oct 2019 at 15:44.
.....I just asked the CAA if I could appeal my Class 2 independently and they said yes, so I did. (I don't even know if people commonly do this or if they always appeal through their AME)?
- Nowadays the normal process is to appeal via an AME, in fact I am surprised you were allowed to make an appeal on your own behalf. The benefit of having an AME involved is that they are (or should be!) very familar with the certification requirements for issue of the medical and they will also more than likely have made appeals in the past and be familar with the process. They can liase with the specialist and explain exactly what is required from a medico-legal standpoint. Unless the specialist has an interest in aviation medicine they will most likely not understand the certification requirements and the necessary criteria that must be met or mitigated against for certification.
- Most AME's are aviators themselves and want to get you flying again rather than just take your money.
- Nowadays the normal process is to appeal via an AME, in fact I am surprised you were allowed to make an appeal on your own behalf. The benefit of having an AME involved is that they are (or should be!) very familar with the certification requirements for issue of the medical and they will also more than likely have made appeals in the past and be familar with the process. They can liase with the specialist and explain exactly what is required from a medico-legal standpoint. Unless the specialist has an interest in aviation medicine they will most likely not understand the certification requirements and the necessary criteria that must be met or mitigated against for certification.
- Most AME's are aviators themselves and want to get you flying again rather than just take your money.
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"The benefit of having an AME involved is that they are (or should be!) very familar with the certification requirements for issue of the medical and they will also more than likely have made appeals in the past and be familar with the process.............liase with the specialist and explain exactly what is required from a medico-legal standpoint."
Couldn't' agree with this more! Their advice would be phenomenally helpful, especially if they have worked for many years, seen many appeals (successes and failures) they also have an intimate understanding of your own case that no-one else does. Their advice (even if it was advice not to appeal) would be incredibly helpful. It was difficult to appeal my Class 2 independently but at the end of the day it was a success. I guess it goes back to my original question re: do AME's have an actual duty to assist with Appeals or are the ones who do just doing so out of the good of their heart? I emailed the secretary of my AME when I got the Class 1 rejection letter from the CAA and the secretary wrote this back:
"We can appreciate that the news you have received from the CAA regarding your Aviation Medical application was not what you were expecting. In such circumstances, we are advised by the CAA that, applicants wishing to appeal against a decision should do so using the CAA’s appeals process, which can be found at their website at: https://www.caa.co.uk/Our-work/Make-a-report-or-complaint/Appeals We hope that this helps to clarify the process and wish you all the best."
which I'm taking to mean that I should complete the appeal application alone? Am I correct here? As I feel it would be improper and come off as rude if I called-up and demanded assistance with a process which I am not in fact entitled to assistance with.
Couldn't' agree with this more! Their advice would be phenomenally helpful, especially if they have worked for many years, seen many appeals (successes and failures) they also have an intimate understanding of your own case that no-one else does. Their advice (even if it was advice not to appeal) would be incredibly helpful. It was difficult to appeal my Class 2 independently but at the end of the day it was a success. I guess it goes back to my original question re: do AME's have an actual duty to assist with Appeals or are the ones who do just doing so out of the good of their heart? I emailed the secretary of my AME when I got the Class 1 rejection letter from the CAA and the secretary wrote this back:
"We can appreciate that the news you have received from the CAA regarding your Aviation Medical application was not what you were expecting. In such circumstances, we are advised by the CAA that, applicants wishing to appeal against a decision should do so using the CAA’s appeals process, which can be found at their website at: https://www.caa.co.uk/Our-work/Make-a-report-or-complaint/Appeals We hope that this helps to clarify the process and wish you all the best."
which I'm taking to mean that I should complete the appeal application alone? Am I correct here? As I feel it would be improper and come off as rude if I called-up and demanded assistance with a process which I am not in fact entitled to assistance with.
Last edited by plane_777; 18th Oct 2019 at 13:36.
