Grounded due to historical issue, case taking months at CAA
In the US it all depends on whether your episode falls under "psychosis" or "other personality disorder..."
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id....2.1.4&idno=14
(a) (2) A psychosis. As used in this section, “psychosis” refers to a mental disorder in which:
(i) The individual has manifested delusions, hallucinations, grossly bizarre or disorganized behavior, or other commonly accepted symptoms of this condition; or
(ii) The individual may reasonably be expected to manifest delusions, hallucinations, grossly bizarre or disorganized behavior, or other commonly accepted symptoms of this condition.
.
.
.
(c) No other personality disorder, neurosis, or other mental condition that the Federal Air Surgeon, based on the case history and appropriate, qualified medical judgment relating to the condition involved, finds—
(1) Makes the person unable to safely perform the duties or exercise the privileges of the airman certificate applied for or held; or
(2) May reasonably be expected, for the maximum duration of the airman medical certificate applied for or held, to make the person unable to perform those duties or exercise those privileges.
(i) The individual has manifested delusions, hallucinations, grossly bizarre or disorganized behavior, or other commonly accepted symptoms of this condition; or
(ii) The individual may reasonably be expected to manifest delusions, hallucinations, grossly bizarre or disorganized behavior, or other commonly accepted symptoms of this condition.
.
.
.
(c) No other personality disorder, neurosis, or other mental condition that the Federal Air Surgeon, based on the case history and appropriate, qualified medical judgment relating to the condition involved, finds—
(1) Makes the person unable to safely perform the duties or exercise the privileges of the airman certificate applied for or held; or
(2) May reasonably be expected, for the maximum duration of the airman medical certificate applied for or held, to make the person unable to perform those duties or exercise those privileges.
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id....2.1.4&idno=14
or other commonly accepted symptoms of this condition
You can also pay $150 million and become an astronaut and fly to the moon.
https://www.seeker.com/fly-me-to-the...768679378.html
But at some point you have to reenter the realm of reality and what is possible.
Most of the ground school instructors that I have had and half the simulator instructors were pilots that lost their medicals.
https://www.indeed.co.uk/Simulator-I...obs-in-England
There are plenty of careers in aviation that do not require a medical.
I'm sorry to sound so harsh but somebody needs to tell you.
Enablers are not going to help you.
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Many thanks everyone for the continued input.
I have done a little searching but not yet made any change with my AME. Although I still feel there are some shortcomings it is very difficult financially to start looking for other doctors to consult on my case, so changing AME is kind of a last resort really. Shopping around for a new state for license/medical issue is likely to be out of reach with my budget.
I have now submitted my appeal so will see how things develop and play it by ear.
B2N2, I appreciate your points. However, the CAA shouldn't be seeing things as so black and white.
If anything, the Germanwings accident demonstrates the need for CAAs to be more open in dealing with airmen with mental health issues in order to foster safer operating environments - as opposed to ostensibly knee jerk reactions to any hint of a problem.
By all accounts, Lubitz' anxieties were at least partly focused on him being assessed as unfit to fly and he hid his diagnoses from the German authority. What do you think will happen as aviation authorities come down ever harder on those with mental health issues? Pilots are humans and a higher proportion of them than most would be aware of or care to admit will suffer mental health issues at some point.
I hold myself to the highest standards in everything I do with regards to my flying and was horrified upon realising my mistake in not declaring my therapy when my previous AME pointed it out just prior to going for my Class 1 exam. I would never deliberately and knowingly withhold pertinent information from the authorities and even now I don't regret making the decision to disclose all details regarding my previous treatment upon realising I was obliged to - but the fact is that doing so has harmed my situation hugely.
I know I am fine and hope I can eventually convince the CAA's doctors of this too, but the fact is jumping through the required hoops has been nothing but a huge setback.
I have done a little searching but not yet made any change with my AME. Although I still feel there are some shortcomings it is very difficult financially to start looking for other doctors to consult on my case, so changing AME is kind of a last resort really. Shopping around for a new state for license/medical issue is likely to be out of reach with my budget.
I have now submitted my appeal so will see how things develop and play it by ear.
B2N2, I appreciate your points. However, the CAA shouldn't be seeing things as so black and white.
If anything, the Germanwings accident demonstrates the need for CAAs to be more open in dealing with airmen with mental health issues in order to foster safer operating environments - as opposed to ostensibly knee jerk reactions to any hint of a problem.
By all accounts, Lubitz' anxieties were at least partly focused on him being assessed as unfit to fly and he hid his diagnoses from the German authority. What do you think will happen as aviation authorities come down ever harder on those with mental health issues? Pilots are humans and a higher proportion of them than most would be aware of or care to admit will suffer mental health issues at some point.
I hold myself to the highest standards in everything I do with regards to my flying and was horrified upon realising my mistake in not declaring my therapy when my previous AME pointed it out just prior to going for my Class 1 exam. I would never deliberately and knowingly withhold pertinent information from the authorities and even now I don't regret making the decision to disclose all details regarding my previous treatment upon realising I was obliged to - but the fact is that doing so has harmed my situation hugely.
I know I am fine and hope I can eventually convince the CAA's doctors of this too, but the fact is jumping through the required hoops has been nothing but a huge setback.
You don't know what it took me to get where I am.
The sacrifices and the 20 years of struggle.
I know what it takes to get where I am now.
I also know of the people that have fallen by the wayside for many different reasons.
Some have lost their medical, some have died in the process.
I don't take this lightly.
Given that the TS probably doesn't want to (and probably shouldn't) discuss every detail of whatever happened previously leading to this predicament, discussion as to whether the appeal has merit or not is pretty much wasted.
B2N2 you do have a point but as above, you have no more information than the rest of us so perhaps save your rather aggressive line of argumentation for another time. It's easy being a keyboard warrior...
B2N2 you do have a point but as above, you have no more information than the rest of us so perhaps save your rather aggressive line of argumentation for another time. It's easy being a keyboard warrior...
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There is not much that any/another AME can do for an applicant who has been denied a medical by the CAA.
The applicant needs to go through the appeals process which is detailed on the CAA website.
Support from a clinician in the area of the problem - in this case that would be a psychiatrist, is important as they can review the documentation made at the time and see what relevance that has/had to the problem identified.
The applicant needs to go through the appeals process which is detailed on the CAA website.
Support from a clinician in the area of the problem - in this case that would be a psychiatrist, is important as they can review the documentation made at the time and see what relevance that has/had to the problem identified.
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My most up to date report is from the time of the therapy a number of years ago, unfortunately. The CAA stated that, if necessary, they will arrange for me to have a psych evaluation as part of this process. If that were the case, I would certainly feel much better about my chances.
The current decision just feels like they've unnecessarily rejected my application out of hand.
I've noticed that since I last phoned the CAA (about a week or so ago), things have changed with the phone lines such that there is now no way for pilots to speak to anyone in the aeromedical department directly unless it's specifically to discuss a change of SOLI or to book an appointment with a consultant (those are the only two options that will connect you to someone, the other will just give you an automated message about asking your AME or checking the website, then hang up).
The current decision just feels like they've unnecessarily rejected my application out of hand.
I've noticed that since I last phoned the CAA (about a week or so ago), things have changed with the phone lines such that there is now no way for pilots to speak to anyone in the aeromedical department directly unless it's specifically to discuss a change of SOLI or to book an appointment with a consultant (those are the only two options that will connect you to someone, the other will just give you an automated message about asking your AME or checking the website, then hang up).
Point taken.
However...the information provided was done voluntarily on a public forum, soliciting advice and opinions.
This is the second (3rd?) thread in a relatively short time that deals with disqualifying issues.
Providing unrealistic advise is..well...equally less then helpful.
This industry, like any other, is not for everybody.
Too tall, too short, too fast, too slow, too smart....anything can disqualify you from being an actor, a train conductor, or....a pilot.
This early in your training you've just tasted aviation, you haven't experienced it yet.
Dreams shattered? Yes.
Heart broken? Yes.
But the flip side of the coin being that you do not know what you will miss.
Pick up the pieces and continue with your life.
Many other jobs in aviation.
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If the CAA wants further information to make a decision they are usually pretty clear and prescriptive what type of report by what type of specialist they want in order to evaluate someone's fitness to hold a medical certificate.
From what you have written in your last post it would appear they have told you what they need so the next step would be for you to get that done.
From what you have written in your last post it would appear they have told you what they need so the next step would be for you to get that done.
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Apologies Flyin'Dutch', I meant the CAA simply clarified that if they decide they want further information as part of the appeals process they will then make the arrangements for a further evaluation themselves.
I submitted my appeal last week, will update this thread when I hear more.
I submitted my appeal last week, will update this thread when I hear more.
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Crazy Scientist,
I was discussing your case with my daughter this evening. She helps a lot of people who suffer from the after effects of stress, including PTSD. She immediately recommended that you should seek help from a well accredited trauma specialist who might have enough clout to convince your AME and the CAA that you are no more a risk than anyone else but also take some of the responsibility for the decision to let you fly.
I hope that it all works out well for you.
I was discussing your case with my daughter this evening. She helps a lot of people who suffer from the after effects of stress, including PTSD. She immediately recommended that you should seek help from a well accredited trauma specialist who might have enough clout to convince your AME and the CAA that you are no more a risk than anyone else but also take some of the responsibility for the decision to let you fly.
I hope that it all works out well for you.
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Many thanks for your post pulse1. At the moment my appeal is still with the CAA and so I can't really do anything further until that is concluded and I know where I stand. Hopefully it all goes through OK and there is no need for any further action on my part - will post back when I find out more!
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Cripes ! Just to lighten up ; finished tidying up the kitchen, everything spotless, everything lined up in size order, poured my glass of fizz & reckon I have won the Euromillions . Even deciding how I am going to spend it. BUT ! I am not telling my AME or the CAA any of this !
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Crazyscientist...... I wouldn't say CBT or NLP is actually a problem, and as someone stated that he knew of someone who had CBT and continued flying, after all CBT could be for something like a fear of needles, or spiders.
The problem we have now is the licencing authorities are very nervous following Lubitz and Germanwings. The trouble with psychology, psychiatry, psychotherapy is a bit of a muddy pool.
If I were you I you write down an account of the events the CAA have issues with. Then go to the following:
Psychiatric Diagnoses are categorized by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th. Edition. Better known as the DSM-IV, the manual is published by the American Psychiatric Association and covers all mental health disorders for both children and adults.
There was a research paper a few years ago, that stated that that in terms of percetages of psychopaths by percentage in ocupations CEOs and Judges scored the highest, and I have met a few in aviation.
Get back to psychological assesments, I knew a police firearms officer, he was in a family law dispute over his daughter, the mother was preventing contact. The court ordered two psychiatrists reports which did not come up with much more that the father was quite upset by not seeing his young daughter. The whole thing was quite ridiculous when the police deemed him suitable to work as an armed officer. It is interesting as I knew this particular high court judge, and he was a complete psycholpath, he previously ruled that a child be removed from her parents as they were jehovah witness'.
The problem we have now is the licencing authorities are very nervous following Lubitz and Germanwings. The trouble with psychology, psychiatry, psychotherapy is a bit of a muddy pool.
If I were you I you write down an account of the events the CAA have issues with. Then go to the following:
Psychiatric Diagnoses are categorized by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th. Edition. Better known as the DSM-IV, the manual is published by the American Psychiatric Association and covers all mental health disorders for both children and adults.
There was a research paper a few years ago, that stated that that in terms of percetages of psychopaths by percentage in ocupations CEOs and Judges scored the highest, and I have met a few in aviation.
Get back to psychological assesments, I knew a police firearms officer, he was in a family law dispute over his daughter, the mother was preventing contact. The court ordered two psychiatrists reports which did not come up with much more that the father was quite upset by not seeing his young daughter. The whole thing was quite ridiculous when the police deemed him suitable to work as an armed officer. It is interesting as I knew this particular high court judge, and he was a complete psycholpath, he previously ruled that a child be removed from her parents as they were jehovah witness'.
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Sorry for not acknowledging your post earlier Homsap, your advice is much appreciated however.
I will certainly take on board what you said, although for the time being I just have to sit tight and see what the CAA say. The whole process has been extraordinarily slow unfortunately, but there is little I can do really to make a difference at this stage.
I can certainly appreciate why Authorities are so nervous regarding such issues following Germanwings, although I can't help but feel that by coming down so hard on those with mental health issues in their past the Authorities are doing more harm than good (even from the perspective of protecting the flying public). The absurd amount of time it takes for anything to be processed makes it worse.
I will certainly take on board what you said, although for the time being I just have to sit tight and see what the CAA say. The whole process has been extraordinarily slow unfortunately, but there is little I can do really to make a difference at this stage.
I can certainly appreciate why Authorities are so nervous regarding such issues following Germanwings, although I can't help but feel that by coming down so hard on those with mental health issues in their past the Authorities are doing more harm than good (even from the perspective of protecting the flying public). The absurd amount of time it takes for anything to be processed makes it worse.
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Just to update this thread, I have now received a response (after substantial delays) to my appeal.
Unfortunately, the CAA have more or less upheld the original decision. They have stated (following an appointment with one of their consultants) that although it does seem the original assessment of my history was inaccurate (not a psychosis, but rather severe OCD symptoms instead), and that my present condition is satisfactory, the risk of relapse is a concern. They've technically changed their position in that instead of being permanently barred from certification, I can now be reassessed (subject to a further psychiatric review) after another ~2 years from now (5 years since original recovery). Practically though it's of little relevance as by then there's no way I could continue towards training to be a commercial pilot (expired ATPL exams, advancing age and need to commit to a career etc).
They cite the universal requirement of there being significantly less risk than 1% per annum of relapse as reason for my being classed as unfit. However, the letter doesn't really explain exactly how the decision was made that I don't fall under this limit. And for various reasons, there are specific factors that I believe indicate a lower risk of relapse but which I don't feel were taken into consideration (partly because they weren't mentioned).
The risk threshold also specifically refers to incapacitation, but I completely disagree with regards to the impact even the most severe symptoms I experienced years ago could have on airmanship and my ability to fly safely. I've never experienced anything that I believe could have any relevance to flying an airplane.
I will be progressing with the final appeal stage (to the CAA Chief Medical Officer) and appealing on these bases. However, I appreciate my own arguments are unlikely to sway the panel, assuming they are correct. I'm therefore looking to see if I can see another specialist who may be able to review my case and provide their own assessment as supporting evidence. Does anyone have any suggestions as to possible candidates for this? A poster on this thread did recommend someone to me already via PM and I'm in the process of getting in touch with them, it's just a little slow with the holiday season. I'd really appreciate if anyone else has further recommendations based on their experiences.
I'm also wondering if anyone also has experience specifically with this final appeal stage. I understand there is the possibility of attending a hearing to make my own representations in person, and also that in certain cases it may be possible to forgo the option of having a hearing and instead request a "very quick" decision be made due to impending training deadlines/licence expiry etc (according to the CAA's official guidance document). However, it is really difficult to find any further information; for example, regarding what the hearing actually entails and how advisable it is to actually have one.
Unfortunately, the CAA have more or less upheld the original decision. They have stated (following an appointment with one of their consultants) that although it does seem the original assessment of my history was inaccurate (not a psychosis, but rather severe OCD symptoms instead), and that my present condition is satisfactory, the risk of relapse is a concern. They've technically changed their position in that instead of being permanently barred from certification, I can now be reassessed (subject to a further psychiatric review) after another ~2 years from now (5 years since original recovery). Practically though it's of little relevance as by then there's no way I could continue towards training to be a commercial pilot (expired ATPL exams, advancing age and need to commit to a career etc).
They cite the universal requirement of there being significantly less risk than 1% per annum of relapse as reason for my being classed as unfit. However, the letter doesn't really explain exactly how the decision was made that I don't fall under this limit. And for various reasons, there are specific factors that I believe indicate a lower risk of relapse but which I don't feel were taken into consideration (partly because they weren't mentioned).
The risk threshold also specifically refers to incapacitation, but I completely disagree with regards to the impact even the most severe symptoms I experienced years ago could have on airmanship and my ability to fly safely. I've never experienced anything that I believe could have any relevance to flying an airplane.
I will be progressing with the final appeal stage (to the CAA Chief Medical Officer) and appealing on these bases. However, I appreciate my own arguments are unlikely to sway the panel, assuming they are correct. I'm therefore looking to see if I can see another specialist who may be able to review my case and provide their own assessment as supporting evidence. Does anyone have any suggestions as to possible candidates for this? A poster on this thread did recommend someone to me already via PM and I'm in the process of getting in touch with them, it's just a little slow with the holiday season. I'd really appreciate if anyone else has further recommendations based on their experiences.
I'm also wondering if anyone also has experience specifically with this final appeal stage. I understand there is the possibility of attending a hearing to make my own representations in person, and also that in certain cases it may be possible to forgo the option of having a hearing and instead request a "very quick" decision be made due to impending training deadlines/licence expiry etc (according to the CAA's official guidance document). However, it is really difficult to find any further information; for example, regarding what the hearing actually entails and how advisable it is to actually have one.
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CS,
Don't give up, but get yourself professional assistance in form of a medical lawyer experienced in dealing with the CAA. Meanwhile, get started on another career path, and be assured that being an airline pilot is not the most glorious way of having a life. There are other ways! If you succeed in regaining your medical, re-doing the ATP exams will be the least of your efforts.
On a side-note, why did you chose to have ''crazy'' in your PPrune name?
Don't give up, but get yourself professional assistance in form of a medical lawyer experienced in dealing with the CAA. Meanwhile, get started on another career path, and be assured that being an airline pilot is not the most glorious way of having a life. There are other ways! If you succeed in regaining your medical, re-doing the ATP exams will be the least of your efforts.
On a side-note, why did you chose to have ''crazy'' in your PPrune name?
They cite the universal requirement of there being significantly less risk than 1% per annum of relapse as reason for my being classed as unfit. However, the letter doesn't really explain exactly how the decision was made that I don't fall under this limit.
I would be astonished if one turns up.