Colour Vision and Class 1
Guest
Posts: n/a
Now, there I was thinking you were a sensible chap all along, and then you go and say something stupid... 'make the CAA think' 
...remember we are dealing with the British Civil Service here ! Civil Servants are not paid to think, they follow rules - period. (speaking as an ex-civil servant, who was repeatedly marked down on my annual appraisals for 'failing to conform' !)
Seriously though, I agree that passing the HW first is the most vital step, but not having to take it again - ever, is good news as far as I'm concerned ! (I wonder where Wilmo got his info to the contrary earlier in this thread ?)
So, from what I can see so far, you are allowed to take the HW test more than once and once you pass, you never have to take it again - so, 9 pairs of lights in random order gives 362,880 permutations, at £25 a throw is just over 9 Million Quid... it's just a matter of time !
...remember we are dealing with the British Civil Service here ! Civil Servants are not paid to think, they follow rules - period. (speaking as an ex-civil servant, who was repeatedly marked down on my annual appraisals for 'failing to conform' !) Seriously though, I agree that passing the HW first is the most vital step, but not having to take it again - ever, is good news as far as I'm concerned ! (I wonder where Wilmo got his info to the contrary earlier in this thread ?)
So, from what I can see so far, you are allowed to take the HW test more than once and once you pass, you never have to take it again - so, 9 pairs of lights in random order gives 362,880 permutations, at £25 a throw is just over 9 Million Quid... it's just a matter of time !
Guest
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Please forgive me if this is in one of the other replys, but.....if you fail the plates but pass the lantern test........is your medical restricted?
Sorry about the lazyness of this reply but i have got exams.....lack of time.
Sorry about the pathetic excuse aswell.....exams.
Cheers
Eagle 1
Sorry about the lazyness of this reply but i have got exams.....lack of time.
Sorry about the pathetic excuse aswell.....exams.
Cheers
Eagle 1
Guest
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Eagle, sorry but I can't give you an answer on that - the old CAA regs state that your licence would be endorsed 'Colour Defective - SAFE'. I'm not sure what the score is now - maybe someone else knows (if there's anyone left bar me & GiJoe reading this anymore !)
...as for my earlier post mentioning my optimism.. I have discovered this from an older thread...
3. Must an applicants' training and testing, e.g. skill tests/medical tests etc., be carried out in one JAA member State?
For licence issue the answer is yes. See JAR-FCL 1.065. All training and testing shall be undertaken under the supervision of one JAA member State. This State becomes the State of Licence Issue. Further ratings can be obtained in any JAA member State and will be added to the licence by the State of Licence Issue (the procedure for this is stated the Joint Implementation Procedures (JIP) document paragraph 14.1.1.3).
So, is my theory of getting a Class 1 in a member state that uses an easier lantern test (if, indeed any of the others are easier than the HW) out of the window ?
The wording of that excerpt is a little confusing - it implies that you cannot, for example, take a Class 1 in, say Holland, then go to the US to do flight training.
Secondly, despite my letter from the CAA stating that there is 'technically no restriction' on the number of times you can take the HW test, 'Localiser' says in the same thread The bad news is though, they were not prepared to give me a retest at all until I got the RAF involved so if you haven't got anything like that to back your arguement you could well be fighting a losing battle
The thread, btw is at http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/For...ML/000235.html
I also note that 'Grob103' was fighting hard then and has thrown in the towel now (no offence meant to you mate), and it has rather disheartened me...
Whilst I have taken the HW at Gatwick, many years ago, I have never tried a full Class 1 - so maybe, just maybe, I have one last shot at it.
I don't know... I'm beginning to think I should have left my 'sleeping dog lie' rather than get all my hopes up again.
I've been fighting this for too many years and I'm getting tired.
...as for my earlier post mentioning my optimism.. I have discovered this from an older thread...
3. Must an applicants' training and testing, e.g. skill tests/medical tests etc., be carried out in one JAA member State?
For licence issue the answer is yes. See JAR-FCL 1.065. All training and testing shall be undertaken under the supervision of one JAA member State. This State becomes the State of Licence Issue. Further ratings can be obtained in any JAA member State and will be added to the licence by the State of Licence Issue (the procedure for this is stated the Joint Implementation Procedures (JIP) document paragraph 14.1.1.3).
So, is my theory of getting a Class 1 in a member state that uses an easier lantern test (if, indeed any of the others are easier than the HW) out of the window ?
The wording of that excerpt is a little confusing - it implies that you cannot, for example, take a Class 1 in, say Holland, then go to the US to do flight training.
Secondly, despite my letter from the CAA stating that there is 'technically no restriction' on the number of times you can take the HW test, 'Localiser' says in the same thread The bad news is though, they were not prepared to give me a retest at all until I got the RAF involved so if you haven't got anything like that to back your arguement you could well be fighting a losing battle
The thread, btw is at http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/For...ML/000235.html
I also note that 'Grob103' was fighting hard then and has thrown in the towel now (no offence meant to you mate), and it has rather disheartened me...
Whilst I have taken the HW at Gatwick, many years ago, I have never tried a full Class 1 - so maybe, just maybe, I have one last shot at it.
I don't know... I'm beginning to think I should have left my 'sleeping dog lie' rather than get all my hopes up again.
I've been fighting this for too many years and I'm getting tired.
Guest
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G Day from OZ
Yet another story to add to the archive.
Similar story ,found out young and dicked around trying to make a decision as to what to do after school.Finally in mid 20s thought I'd do something about it.I could see airport lights with no worries at night.
Challenged our Aviation Authority as to why I was limited to MTOW A/C of 5700kgs.
I would be able to fly a Metro II(under
5700kgs).
I wouldnt be able to fly a MetroIII(over 5700kgs).
How then did this prove to be an effective way to govern the requirements.!!!!!
Anyhow my answer was that my A/C MTOW now is 20,000kgs..
Seems like its an antiquated law all over the world.
With more of this cases being "pushed" hopefully it will draw some reward to all of us .
Good luck to all of you out there in the "colour challanged world".
P.S the number of people who think "colour Blindness" is the same as "colour deficient"
Ignorance can be a pain in the asss
Yet another story to add to the archive.
Similar story ,found out young and dicked around trying to make a decision as to what to do after school.Finally in mid 20s thought I'd do something about it.I could see airport lights with no worries at night.
Challenged our Aviation Authority as to why I was limited to MTOW A/C of 5700kgs.
I would be able to fly a Metro II(under
5700kgs).
I wouldnt be able to fly a MetroIII(over 5700kgs).
How then did this prove to be an effective way to govern the requirements.!!!!!
Anyhow my answer was that my A/C MTOW now is 20,000kgs..
Seems like its an antiquated law all over the world.
With more of this cases being "pushed" hopefully it will draw some reward to all of us .
Good luck to all of you out there in the "colour challanged world".
P.S the number of people who think "colour Blindness" is the same as "colour deficient"
Ignorance can be a pain in the asss
Guest
Posts: n/a
Yeah.. I'm with you big time on that one mate ! ....you know the most ANNOYING question everyone ALWAYS asks you if you mention you have a slight colour deficiency..
"So - can you see what colour that is then?" ...pointing to something of a primary colour so intense you could see it in total darkness. ....and "what about traffic lights ?"
It's usually at this point I make some facile remark about how blue the leaves are this year... and (unbelieveably) they always fall for it.
AAARRRRGGHHHH !!!!
(I take it you are now free of the restrictions in Oz, courtesy of Dr Pape's stirling work ?).
"So - can you see what colour that is then?" ...pointing to something of a primary colour so intense you could see it in total darkness. ....and "what about traffic lights ?"
It's usually at this point I make some facile remark about how blue the leaves are this year... and (unbelieveably) they always fall for it.
AAARRRRGGHHHH !!!!
(I take it you are now free of the restrictions in Oz, courtesy of Dr Pape's stirling work ?).
Guest
Posts: n/a
Further Info: I had a reply from my email to the JAA Medical section...
The colour lanterns which are acceptable to test colour vision for a Class
1 medical certificate are only those you mentioned as set out in JAR-FCL
3.225 (b).
(...and they are the Holmes-Wright, Beynes and Spectrolux)
For acceptance of licences see JAR-FCL 1.015 (a)(1):
Where a person, an organisation or a service has been licensed, issued with
a rating, authorisation, approval or certificate by the Authority of a JAA
Member State in accordance with the requirements of JAR-FCL and associated
procedures, such licences, ratings, authorisations, approvals or
certificates shall be accepted without formality by other JAA Member
States.
Please note that the initial medical certificate has to be issued in the
State of licence issue (JAR-FCL 1.065 (a). The aeromedical examination for
revalidation of a medical certificate can be performed in any JAA Member
State.
All of the above is only valid for those JAA Member States where JAR-FCL
has been implemented and a satisfactory standardisation visit has been
carried out. So far these States are: Denmark, Iceland, UK, France,
Switzerland, France, The Netherlands, Sweden, Finland, Malta, Spain,
Belgium. Please take into account that after implementation of JAR-FCL the
State of licence issue remains responsible for the licence which is only
valid with a valid rating and medical certificate and that some national
differences may apply. Please inquire with the National Aviation Authority
in the country where you intend to fly whether the medical certificate is
valid without further administrative requirements.
...and also in a recent letter from the CAA, they merely state that they use the Holmes-Wright (despite my asking if there were any plans to change to perhaps Nagels Anomaloscope), so I can only presume they have no plans to change. However, the letter also states As colour perception is unlikely to change, there is no requirement for five yearly retesting.
I don't know if any of this is useful to anyone here, but I thought I'd post it anyway.
I wonder if anyone from the CAA reads these threads - any thoughts ?
The colour lanterns which are acceptable to test colour vision for a Class
1 medical certificate are only those you mentioned as set out in JAR-FCL
3.225 (b).
(...and they are the Holmes-Wright, Beynes and Spectrolux)
For acceptance of licences see JAR-FCL 1.015 (a)(1):
Where a person, an organisation or a service has been licensed, issued with
a rating, authorisation, approval or certificate by the Authority of a JAA
Member State in accordance with the requirements of JAR-FCL and associated
procedures, such licences, ratings, authorisations, approvals or
certificates shall be accepted without formality by other JAA Member
States.
Please note that the initial medical certificate has to be issued in the
State of licence issue (JAR-FCL 1.065 (a). The aeromedical examination for
revalidation of a medical certificate can be performed in any JAA Member
State.
All of the above is only valid for those JAA Member States where JAR-FCL
has been implemented and a satisfactory standardisation visit has been
carried out. So far these States are: Denmark, Iceland, UK, France,
Switzerland, France, The Netherlands, Sweden, Finland, Malta, Spain,
Belgium. Please take into account that after implementation of JAR-FCL the
State of licence issue remains responsible for the licence which is only
valid with a valid rating and medical certificate and that some national
differences may apply. Please inquire with the National Aviation Authority
in the country where you intend to fly whether the medical certificate is
valid without further administrative requirements.
...and also in a recent letter from the CAA, they merely state that they use the Holmes-Wright (despite my asking if there were any plans to change to perhaps Nagels Anomaloscope), so I can only presume they have no plans to change. However, the letter also states As colour perception is unlikely to change, there is no requirement for five yearly retesting.
I don't know if any of this is useful to anyone here, but I thought I'd post it anyway.
I wonder if anyone from the CAA reads these threads - any thoughts ?
Guest
Posts: n/a
this is a little off topic of the regulations and what not, but it was something brought to my attention by the DME who handled my colour deficiency retesting.
He mentioned that even though i have passed the holmes-wright tests, and have a full unrestricted class 1, i may still miss out on that airline job because airlines do their own testing, and some nazi ones like to rule out those who fail the ishihara.
I would like to hear from anyone on the matter.. is there anyone who has faced problems getting a job dispite having the class 1 due to colour testing, and are there people who have passed it even with acceptable colour deficiency!
Cheers
GROOVE
He mentioned that even though i have passed the holmes-wright tests, and have a full unrestricted class 1, i may still miss out on that airline job because airlines do their own testing, and some nazi ones like to rule out those who fail the ishihara.
I would like to hear from anyone on the matter.. is there anyone who has faced problems getting a job dispite having the class 1 due to colour testing, and are there people who have passed it even with acceptable colour deficiency!
Cheers
GROOVE
Guest
Posts: n/a
Hi all, im writing this message to get confirmed some of the information confirmed in this topic!!! Like many i have failed the plates but thankfully passed the lantern!!!
What im wanting confimed is that you do not have to have your colour vision checked every 5 years???? I phoned the Caa and they said that the 5 yearly extended eye checks have been done away with, is this correct????? At your yearly renewal does your colour vision get checked?????
on the topic of airlines, the caa doctor told me that most airlines are only interested in you having a classone medical!!!?? I think only Ba has a medical department anyway which does general check ups on their pilots???!!!
Cheers
Kestral
What im wanting confimed is that you do not have to have your colour vision checked every 5 years???? I phoned the Caa and they said that the 5 yearly extended eye checks have been done away with, is this correct????? At your yearly renewal does your colour vision get checked?????
on the topic of airlines, the caa doctor told me that most airlines are only interested in you having a classone medical!!!?? I think only Ba has a medical department anyway which does general check ups on their pilots???!!!
Cheers
Kestral
Guest
Posts: n/a
The bloody annoying part is the way you are not allowed to make many errors on the Ishihara plates with the CAA/JAR.
You are allowed up to seven errors on the 25 plate for the FAA, hence I have an unrestricted FAA Class One, but cannot get a CAA/JAR Class One.
Mad.
I can use the same airspace at night/IMC, but only with an "N" on the tail. And do.....
Incidently, after passing a Titmus 2 test I now have the letter from the FAA that means I never have to take another colour vision test for an FAA medical. Why not JAR??????
You are allowed up to seven errors on the 25 plate for the FAA, hence I have an unrestricted FAA Class One, but cannot get a CAA/JAR Class One.
Mad.
I can use the same airspace at night/IMC, but only with an "N" on the tail. And do.....
Incidently, after passing a Titmus 2 test I now have the letter from the FAA that means I never have to take another colour vision test for an FAA medical. Why not JAR??????
Guest
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An,
Yep, second letter from the CAA arrived yesterday stating that because I had failed HW test once already I could not take it again with the CAA. I could, however, get a restricted CPL that would limit me to instruction/aerial work. The letter also stated that to get a JAA licence from the CAA the medical had to be done by the CAA.
So...as it stands the CAA is not doing the same tests as the other nations in the JAA but will not give you a JAA licence if you can't do their tests ! Work that one out !
The doctor also apologised for not being able to help which I thought was quite nice. There was no indication on the letter of where things were going to go in the future.
I reckon the way forward is as Yosser said - go Stateside.
Yep, second letter from the CAA arrived yesterday stating that because I had failed HW test once already I could not take it again with the CAA. I could, however, get a restricted CPL that would limit me to instruction/aerial work. The letter also stated that to get a JAA licence from the CAA the medical had to be done by the CAA.
So...as it stands the CAA is not doing the same tests as the other nations in the JAA but will not give you a JAA licence if you can't do their tests ! Work that one out !
The doctor also apologised for not being able to help which I thought was quite nice. There was no indication on the letter of where things were going to go in the future.
I reckon the way forward is as Yosser said - go Stateside.
Guest
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gijoe
Are you saying that the CAA will give allow a restricted CPL to pilots with a colour defect??
I allowed my instructor rating to lapse years ago and now I cannot get it back because they are saying I need a class 1 to instruct.
I would be sort of half happy with a restricted CPL if this is correct.
Please confirm.
Thanks
Are you saying that the CAA will give allow a restricted CPL to pilots with a colour defect??
I allowed my instructor rating to lapse years ago and now I cannot get it back because they are saying I need a class 1 to instruct.
I would be sort of half happy with a restricted CPL if this is correct.
Please confirm.
Thanks
Guest
Posts: n/a
Well, it seems to me that the CAA ought to get their act together, as I have a letter, albeit a few years old now, that categorically states the opposite of what you have been told. As I quoted previously in this thread, my letter states 'technically there is no reason why you cannot sit the test more than once, but there is no point as colour vision is a static condition'. This, in combination with your letter seems to imply that either there are no written rules to say you cannot take the test more than once and they are just 'making it up' as they really don't want to open the floodgates of people repeatedly doing the test until they pass, ....or, not all the docs at Gatwick are fully aware of the rules.
Either that, or they have changed the rules since I received my letter (which, I think is the less likely of the options).
The whole colour perception thing is a load of bo**ocks anyway, and all we are doing is trying to get past their stupid rules. The trouble is, they don't seem to have a clearly defined set of rules that are in the spirit of JAA harmonisation.
One day, all this antiquated nonsense will be consigned to the bin, and future wannabees will have no knowledge of the crap that this generation had to endure to get past the medical, like so many other out of date and inappropriate laws.
It makes me so sad that in the UK, we live in a culture that views ambition as arrogance and the 'British Way' is to keep people's aspirations supressed. The 'American Dream' is all about 'you can achieve anything if you want it enough, go for it'. The 'British Dream' is more like 'Steady on old chap, stop being so silly'.
I never thought I'd ever say it, but sometimes I wish I had been born the other side of the pond.
Either that, or they have changed the rules since I received my letter (which, I think is the less likely of the options).
The whole colour perception thing is a load of bo**ocks anyway, and all we are doing is trying to get past their stupid rules. The trouble is, they don't seem to have a clearly defined set of rules that are in the spirit of JAA harmonisation.
One day, all this antiquated nonsense will be consigned to the bin, and future wannabees will have no knowledge of the crap that this generation had to endure to get past the medical, like so many other out of date and inappropriate laws.
It makes me so sad that in the UK, we live in a culture that views ambition as arrogance and the 'British Way' is to keep people's aspirations supressed. The 'American Dream' is all about 'you can achieve anything if you want it enough, go for it'. The 'British Dream' is more like 'Steady on old chap, stop being so silly'.
I never thought I'd ever say it, but sometimes I wish I had been born the other side of the pond.
Guest
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Chin up An !!! (Good old English saying)
All is not lost. I intend to write back to the CAA to say that they are at odds with other nations ( and I'll probably write or email the JAA as well) and are not offering the full gambit of tests to get a JAA Class 1.
My reasoning being that if they are not doing all of the tests that they should not be allowed to not grant a licence for failure of a small number of these tests. Also I will pose the following; if the CAA is not able to offer all of these tests then why will they not accept evidence of a pass of one of other tests from an opthalmologist?
It's not my fault that the CAA budget doesn't stretch far enough to buy all of the required equipments.
The fight continues...
JP5A - did you fly these at some point ? In answer to your question if you had a restricted CAA Class 2 this would become a JAA Class 1(restricted) the next time you renewed it. You could then instruct on this with a CPL(R) for renumeration, or on a PPL for gratis.
[This message has been edited by gijoe (edited 28 June 2001).]
[This message has been edited by gijoe (edited 28 June 2001).]
All is not lost. I intend to write back to the CAA to say that they are at odds with other nations ( and I'll probably write or email the JAA as well) and are not offering the full gambit of tests to get a JAA Class 1.
My reasoning being that if they are not doing all of the tests that they should not be allowed to not grant a licence for failure of a small number of these tests. Also I will pose the following; if the CAA is not able to offer all of these tests then why will they not accept evidence of a pass of one of other tests from an opthalmologist?
It's not my fault that the CAA budget doesn't stretch far enough to buy all of the required equipments.
The fight continues...
JP5A - did you fly these at some point ? In answer to your question if you had a restricted CAA Class 2 this would become a JAA Class 1(restricted) the next time you renewed it. You could then instruct on this with a CPL(R) for renumeration, or on a PPL for gratis.
[This message has been edited by gijoe (edited 28 June 2001).]
[This message has been edited by gijoe (edited 28 June 2001).]
Guest
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gijoe
Yes I do fly the JP.We have one based at Blackpool in ANT's hangar.Lovely bit of kit but a bit thirsty.
I have a class 2 medical at the moment.Are you saying my AME will upgrade this to a restricted Class 1 or will it be a trip to Gatwick??
The strange thing is that I have an IR and the CAA have said that I can keep this and my night rating because once you have something they don't take it away which is half decent of them.The prob.is though that once you let one of these rating lapse the shutters come down and you are cast into the wilderness(as happened with my instructor rating).
Thanks
Yes I do fly the JP.We have one based at Blackpool in ANT's hangar.Lovely bit of kit but a bit thirsty.
I have a class 2 medical at the moment.Are you saying my AME will upgrade this to a restricted Class 1 or will it be a trip to Gatwick??
The strange thing is that I have an IR and the CAA have said that I can keep this and my night rating because once you have something they don't take it away which is half decent of them.The prob.is though that once you let one of these rating lapse the shutters come down and you are cast into the wilderness(as happened with my instructor rating).
Thanks