VISION THREAD (other than colour vision)
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Lithuania
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello,
Interesting information in this thread. I live in JAA member state and have problems with medical licence renewal. Maybe someone could answer some of my questions.
In real life I have no problems at all, and see all the colors just fine. The only time I don't see something is when I look at those Ishiara plates.
Several years ago I decided to go for class 2, made Ishiara test with some mistakes and was given Class 2 with daylight restrictions. Started flying for fun and enjoyed it very much.
Now when renewing my licence I had to do Ishiara again, and this time I did more mistakes, and the doctor doesnt want to renew my Class 2 as he says now I am color unsafe, even for flying in daylight
I am confused how can that be? Colour vision does not change with age, I am still of young age and had no illness'es recently.
Now I read here, that if you pass once you don't have to do it anymore. So maybe this second test was illegal? But I read JAR-FCL3 manual, that colour vision tests must be done on class 2 renewals if there are "indications". What are those indications?
Interesting information in this thread. I live in JAA member state and have problems with medical licence renewal. Maybe someone could answer some of my questions.
In real life I have no problems at all, and see all the colors just fine. The only time I don't see something is when I look at those Ishiara plates.
Several years ago I decided to go for class 2, made Ishiara test with some mistakes and was given Class 2 with daylight restrictions. Started flying for fun and enjoyed it very much.
Now when renewing my licence I had to do Ishiara again, and this time I did more mistakes, and the doctor doesnt want to renew my Class 2 as he says now I am color unsafe, even for flying in daylight
I am confused how can that be? Colour vision does not change with age, I am still of young age and had no illness'es recently.
Now I read here, that if you pass once you don't have to do it anymore. So maybe this second test was illegal? But I read JAR-FCL3 manual, that colour vision tests must be done on class 2 renewals if there are "indications". What are those indications?
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Cheshire
Age: 78
Posts: 506
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
no limits . . . . . .
Are there any limits how severe CVD has to be, before licence with VCL limitation is not given?
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Portsmouth, UK
Age: 60
Posts: 256
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nice to see you back here Neo and I totally agree that real life testing is the way to go.
The CAD test is probably the worst thing to happen to CVD pilots worldwide, although might let more fly in JAA land. The CAA are pressing the ICAO to make it a world standard, which could see the FAA scrapping the Tower Signal test in favour of the CAD.
I did personally ask the CAA optician if he would accept a practical test based apon their own studies carried out at Farnborough. The answer was NO!! The CAA see practical testing as unreliable due to enviromental influences on the day. Quite true and this is why the FAA will alow one retest on the Tower Signal test should you fail so that a fair result can be obtained. This would seem only applicable in the medical section as I'm sure that the licencing section are still very much in favour of practical flight testing
.
Saftey must of course be of paramount concern and our flight tests MUST show that an applicant IS safe to preform the duties of the licence or rating sought. If he or she can demonstrate that - well fine!! I would welcome flight instructors and examiners comments on this.
Take the practical tests an airline pilot has taken.
PPL, Night, Multi, CPL, IR, Type Rating
As for the CAD test I must be the first to take the CAD test at Aviation House!! After failing all else they let me take the test and said they will keep my results on file and when and if the CAD is certified they will look at my results. So we will see if I am the first 'victim' of the CAD or the first sucess story.
I shall be writing to the EASA, ICAO and send copies to the CAA regarding loosing my UK class 1 with restrictions when the EASA take over, also worth a copy to my MP as it is a Euro 'thing'.
The CAD test is probably the worst thing to happen to CVD pilots worldwide, although might let more fly in JAA land. The CAA are pressing the ICAO to make it a world standard, which could see the FAA scrapping the Tower Signal test in favour of the CAD.
I did personally ask the CAA optician if he would accept a practical test based apon their own studies carried out at Farnborough. The answer was NO!! The CAA see practical testing as unreliable due to enviromental influences on the day. Quite true and this is why the FAA will alow one retest on the Tower Signal test should you fail so that a fair result can be obtained. This would seem only applicable in the medical section as I'm sure that the licencing section are still very much in favour of practical flight testing
.Saftey must of course be of paramount concern and our flight tests MUST show that an applicant IS safe to preform the duties of the licence or rating sought. If he or she can demonstrate that - well fine!! I would welcome flight instructors and examiners comments on this.
Take the practical tests an airline pilot has taken.
PPL, Night, Multi, CPL, IR, Type Rating
As for the CAD test I must be the first to take the CAD test at Aviation House!! After failing all else they let me take the test and said they will keep my results on file and when and if the CAD is certified they will look at my results. So we will see if I am the first 'victim' of the CAD or the first sucess story.
I shall be writing to the EASA, ICAO and send copies to the CAA regarding loosing my UK class 1 with restrictions when the EASA take over, also worth a copy to my MP as it is a Euro 'thing'.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Cheshire
Age: 78
Posts: 506
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
if doctor says so . . . . . . . !
"clinical indication" - what´s that?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: England
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks TelBoy, it's good to be back. I wouldn't desert my colour blind comrades at a time like this
....colour blind, who even came up with that damn term...the bad press it gives us is a joke.
Yes, if the FAA were to abolish the tower signal test (even though it's been working fine trouble free for years) then we really are up the creek without a paddle. I can understand them replacing one of their CV tests with the CAD, and still leaving the option open to be tested at the airfield, but to completely abandone that system after all this time without any problem with the pilots who passed it, seems a bit ridiculous. I mean they allowed CVDs unrestricted medicals after passing for a reason, as they are believed to be safe. To suddenly reel in these priveleges, or to just stop offering the test at all seems completely unreasonable, it's taking a step back in time for the FAA surely?
But to be honest, I completely agree with you TelBoy, safety is paramount, and obviously we can all agree on that. I can see the person's point about environmental interference, but surely that can be factored in somehow, e.g. as you said the FAA allow one re-test. LGW is on the doorstep of aviation house too, admittedly it's a busy operation there, and it may be a bit much to expect the folks at the ATC to have to perform these tests for us, but even so, it would not be irrational to arrange a quick test at another airfield.
I'd just like to know why Tower signal testing is not appropriate for the JAA when it works succesfully in the States, what's the difference? They have a huge bustling aviation industry over there, and they are not suffering from the few CVD pilots that are working there professionally...we've not heard a peep from them. As I said, I take that person's point regarding environmental factors but it's not enough to cast out the idea of using the Tower singal test here when it works so well there. In my humble opinion, it demonstates that most pilots with CVD attempting to fly comercially, are actually able to do so safely, OTHERWISE we would have heard about it by now, or the system would have of been revoked.
I just wish I could put together some stats of pilots flying professionally based on a tower signal test pass, I think they would surely speak for themselves.
....colour blind, who even came up with that damn term...the bad press it gives us is a joke.Yes, if the FAA were to abolish the tower signal test (even though it's been working fine trouble free for years) then we really are up the creek without a paddle. I can understand them replacing one of their CV tests with the CAD, and still leaving the option open to be tested at the airfield, but to completely abandone that system after all this time without any problem with the pilots who passed it, seems a bit ridiculous. I mean they allowed CVDs unrestricted medicals after passing for a reason, as they are believed to be safe. To suddenly reel in these priveleges, or to just stop offering the test at all seems completely unreasonable, it's taking a step back in time for the FAA surely?
But to be honest, I completely agree with you TelBoy, safety is paramount, and obviously we can all agree on that. I can see the person's point about environmental interference, but surely that can be factored in somehow, e.g. as you said the FAA allow one re-test. LGW is on the doorstep of aviation house too, admittedly it's a busy operation there, and it may be a bit much to expect the folks at the ATC to have to perform these tests for us, but even so, it would not be irrational to arrange a quick test at another airfield.
I'd just like to know why Tower signal testing is not appropriate for the JAA when it works succesfully in the States, what's the difference? They have a huge bustling aviation industry over there, and they are not suffering from the few CVD pilots that are working there professionally...we've not heard a peep from them. As I said, I take that person's point regarding environmental factors but it's not enough to cast out the idea of using the Tower singal test here when it works so well there. In my humble opinion, it demonstates that most pilots with CVD attempting to fly comercially, are actually able to do so safely, OTHERWISE we would have heard about it by now, or the system would have of been revoked.
I just wish I could put together some stats of pilots flying professionally based on a tower signal test pass, I think they would surely speak for themselves.
Last edited by Neo_RS14; 10th Jun 2008 at 16:34. Reason: couple of typos
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Neo
What avenues are available to you to appeal the the Reg's in the UK? We have the Administrative Appeals Tribunal. It was through this avenue that the Reg's were challenged and subsequently changed. IMO you need to use a process that is unbiased and one whose outcome's are be legally binding.
I think momentum is building for change although I also think at present it could go either way as far as ICAO is concerned. If another significant ICAO state comes on board with a system either similar to Australia and the US or something new, such as abolish the CV test, then I think the pendulum could well swing our way. The thing is legal precedents are set all the time. This one is just waiting to happen and while the CV thing worldwide is in such a mess with varying standards and authorities not able to get there crap in a pile the sooner it happens the more likely it is to succeed.
The world is a changing place. The UK could well be the one to do it but it will take more than one pilot to take it on and you will need legal counsel. Perhaps there is a lawyer specialising in aviation that would take it on on a "no win no pay" basis. It would make his/her career if they won.
Cheers
What avenues are available to you to appeal the the Reg's in the UK? We have the Administrative Appeals Tribunal. It was through this avenue that the Reg's were challenged and subsequently changed. IMO you need to use a process that is unbiased and one whose outcome's are be legally binding.
I think momentum is building for change although I also think at present it could go either way as far as ICAO is concerned. If another significant ICAO state comes on board with a system either similar to Australia and the US or something new, such as abolish the CV test, then I think the pendulum could well swing our way. The thing is legal precedents are set all the time. This one is just waiting to happen and while the CV thing worldwide is in such a mess with varying standards and authorities not able to get there crap in a pile the sooner it happens the more likely it is to succeed.
The world is a changing place. The UK could well be the one to do it but it will take more than one pilot to take it on and you will need legal counsel. Perhaps there is a lawyer specialising in aviation that would take it on on a "no win no pay" basis. It would make his/her career if they won.
Cheers
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Athens
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello all,
I've been watching this part of the forum a year and half now as I'm sure many do without making a single post.
Now to what NEO said:
I'm not sure I understand well what you mean by "CVD deviation".
I live in Greece, I have a CVD and i also have an unrestricted JAA class 1 medical issued by the Hellenic CAA. It was not an easy task to get it but after many months of reaserch I fianally made it.
My story is definately a long one and I don't want to bother you with.My point is that Greece might be a country that could help. I know of at least 2 AME's that are very open minded persons and one of them used to be ( or still is) an FAA medical examiner. Especially the latter had told me that is in favour of signal light testing etc. The other one is writting about medical issues in a magazine for civil and general aviation.
We, or me, or whoever, might me able to inform them about the current situtation and how many people are affected. we could do that with a letter to the magazine and then maybe even more CVD's who don't know their options or rights help us somehow.
Well, just thoughts
c u all (or read you actually)
I've been watching this part of the forum a year and half now as I'm sure many do without making a single post.
Now to what NEO said:
The UK could potentially be that nation, if that is the case. I mean we're currently the only state in JAA land allowing CVD deviations right? And if it were up to the UK alone, we would probably keep those deviations for good.
I live in Greece, I have a CVD and i also have an unrestricted JAA class 1 medical issued by the Hellenic CAA. It was not an easy task to get it but after many months of reaserch I fianally made it.
My story is definately a long one and I don't want to bother you with.My point is that Greece might be a country that could help. I know of at least 2 AME's that are very open minded persons and one of them used to be ( or still is) an FAA medical examiner. Especially the latter had told me that is in favour of signal light testing etc. The other one is writting about medical issues in a magazine for civil and general aviation.
We, or me, or whoever, might me able to inform them about the current situtation and how many people are affected. we could do that with a letter to the magazine and then maybe even more CVD's who don't know their options or rights help us somehow.
Well, just thoughts
c u all (or read you actually)
Join Date: May 2007
Location: England
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Guys,
Well there are avenues there Soup Nazi, and there is one party of people from this forum whom are gathering together information for some type of legal challenge I believe, hopefully they will see our posts and see fit to comment here. But they have already spoke about it on previous pages in this thread.
Myself, I'm in no position to make any such challenge as of yet. But, I am more interested in the human rights aspect of this carry on....cold hard human rights. There is a Eurpoean Court of Human Rights, which caters for cases which exceed the jurisdiction of member states of the EU, this may well provide the platform for this debate.
Thanks for your information katsogr, it's great to hear that there are AME's out there who understand our plight from a professional viewpoint. It really is quite startling to think how we are in the twenty-first century, yet things are still able to be so ascew, with different countries asserting different approaches...some major countries liberalising, and the others tightening up
...or trying to harmonise the more liberal countries with their own particular stance on things...
Look, we're either safe, or unsafe...CLEARY WE ARE SAFE, since countries with more liberal approaches do not suffer from any casualties/accidents relating to this relaxing of the regulations.
Ultimately I have faith that these regulations will be universally more forgiving for us, but it's just a matter of time...as someone somewhere is dead against relaxation of CVD regulations in commercial aviation, and they are obvisouly unwilling to confront the reality that it is not really a flight safety issue anymore. Shame that for the parties affected by the draconian rules, we will probably not able to go into our most preferred careers over this, whereas the children of the future probably won't suffer in this way. And the rulemakers/deciders, well it's just another topic in the boardroom to them, they remain unaffected by it on a personal basis, so what do they care.
Sorry for my somewhat negative tone.
Well there are avenues there Soup Nazi, and there is one party of people from this forum whom are gathering together information for some type of legal challenge I believe, hopefully they will see our posts and see fit to comment here. But they have already spoke about it on previous pages in this thread.
Myself, I'm in no position to make any such challenge as of yet. But, I am more interested in the human rights aspect of this carry on....cold hard human rights. There is a Eurpoean Court of Human Rights, which caters for cases which exceed the jurisdiction of member states of the EU, this may well provide the platform for this debate.
Thanks for your information katsogr, it's great to hear that there are AME's out there who understand our plight from a professional viewpoint. It really is quite startling to think how we are in the twenty-first century, yet things are still able to be so ascew, with different countries asserting different approaches...some major countries liberalising, and the others tightening up
...or trying to harmonise the more liberal countries with their own particular stance on things...Look, we're either safe, or unsafe...CLEARY WE ARE SAFE, since countries with more liberal approaches do not suffer from any casualties/accidents relating to this relaxing of the regulations.
Ultimately I have faith that these regulations will be universally more forgiving for us, but it's just a matter of time...as someone somewhere is dead against relaxation of CVD regulations in commercial aviation, and they are obvisouly unwilling to confront the reality that it is not really a flight safety issue anymore. Shame that for the parties affected by the draconian rules, we will probably not able to go into our most preferred careers over this, whereas the children of the future probably won't suffer in this way. And the rulemakers/deciders, well it's just another topic in the boardroom to them, they remain unaffected by it on a personal basis, so what do they care.
Sorry for my somewhat negative tone.
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Katsogr
Can you tell me a little about the process in Greece like;
What was the initial test they gave you and what did you have to do to convince them to issue you a Class 1?
Do the Regs there allow for a CVD pilot to be issued a clean class 1?
Can you tell me a little about the process in Greece like;
What was the initial test they gave you and what did you have to do to convince them to issue you a Class 1?
Do the Regs there allow for a CVD pilot to be issued a clean class 1?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Lincolnshire. United Kingdom.
Age: 36
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry if this has already been discussed!
I have changed opticians a few times now, and am happy were I am. Im not sure whether the opticians I used when I was a child will still have my medical records/history, as I havent been to them for a very long time. They might have even closed down. Anyway, I have my initial class 1 very shortly, and was wondering whether or not to bring a brief history on my eyes. I dont mean resting a piece of paper on my eyes and walking into the examiner's room
. Or could I??????????
What do you think? Thank you
. Or could I??????????What do you think? Thank you
Last edited by tornado617; 22nd Jun 2008 at 14:16. Reason: forgot to say thank you!!!
about eye muscle surgery
Hello,
i am currently a 15 years old kid. I have find out that i have double vision recently, and the only way i could fix it is the do the surgery. Are there requirements that saying u will fail class 1 if u do an eye muscle surgery even i have fix the double vision problem?
i am currently a 15 years old kid. I have find out that i have double vision recently, and the only way i could fix it is the do the surgery. Are there requirements that saying u will fail class 1 if u do an eye muscle surgery even i have fix the double vision problem?
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Cheshire
Age: 78
Posts: 506
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
look it up ! . . . . . . . . .
Are there requirements that say you will fail a class 1 if you undergo eye muscle surgery ?
really to be recommended, anyway ! ).
Put in just a little effort yourself, and search for the information !
This very thread itself is a potent source of facts and ideas about vision
problems as they affect aviators.
More information here :
Vision | Medical | Safety Regulation
though bear in mind this is the UK CAA - Hong Kong may differ subtly.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: London
Age: 36
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I want to do a CAA Class 1 Medical before i undergo my JAA ATPL course but am slightly concerned about my eyesight.
My optician gave me the following results of my last check-up (about a year ago).
RIGHT
SPH: 1.25 (-)
CYL: 0.5 (-)
AXIS: 105
LEFT
SPH: 1.25 (-)
CYL: 0.5 (-)
AXIS: 65
I dont know if this enough to pass the eye part as the requirements also include having a 6/9 separetly or 6/6 with both eyes :S I dont have a clue about anything to do with eyesight/vision. I would just like to know if anyone in here knows if this is sufficient.
Thanks
My optician gave me the following results of my last check-up (about a year ago).
RIGHT
SPH: 1.25 (-)
CYL: 0.5 (-)
AXIS: 105
LEFT
SPH: 1.25 (-)
CYL: 0.5 (-)
AXIS: 65
I dont know if this enough to pass the eye part as the requirements also include having a 6/9 separetly or 6/6 with both eyes :S I dont have a clue about anything to do with eyesight/vision. I would just like to know if anyone in here knows if this is sufficient.
Thanks
thx for your reply. I actually had research through almost the whole internet... and i try to get someon to help to to ask an AME. I knoew doing the surgery will give me some disadvantages but if i don't do the surgery, i can't even fly at all 
that's why i decide to o it
that's why i decide to o it
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Stellenbosch south africa
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CVD
Hi there, I'm a student pilot in South Africa trying to make it in the industry. I've been diagnosed with a red-green deficiency so i have to prove to the SACAA that i can see the relevant colours. I've heard of corrective lenses manufactured in the UK. The question is, can they help? I've contacted the manufacturer but they need me to come to the UK for tests. If you have any information regarding these i'd really appreciate hearing from you.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: England... what's left of it...
Posts: 161
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
C-Hutch:-
Doing a quick dig on Goo-goo by term "x-chrom" reveals plenty to look at.
Some of it is rather negative in comparative testing I must say from a quick glance, though for me that wasn't so.
Anyway... good luck.
Doing a quick dig on Goo-goo by term "x-chrom" reveals plenty to look at.
Some of it is rather negative in comparative testing I must say from a quick glance, though for me that wasn't so.
Anyway... good luck.