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601 8th Apr 2020 14:28

People seem to forget that Pell had four separate "days in court"
In the the first trial, the jurors were rumoured to have been split 10 to 2 in favour of Pell. As a majority or 11 to 1 ginding of guilty is required, the Judge call a mistrial.

So as far a court cases go we have two guilty, one acquittal and one draw.
So do we go for the best of five?

dr dre 8th Apr 2020 23:29


Originally Posted by 601 (Post 10743820)
People seem to forget that Pell had four separate "days in court"
In the the first trial, the jurors were rumoured to have been split 10 to 2 in favour of Pell. As a majority or 11 to 1 ginding of guilty is required, the Judge call a mistrial.

So as far a court cases go we have two guilty, one acquittal and one draw.
So do we go for the best of five?

There’s no evidence of that rumoured (started by Pell supporters with no substance, jurors are specifically told not to reveal details) 10-2 jury split in the first the first case. It’s equally valid it could have been 10-2 in favour of guilty with two ardent Pell supporters infiltrating the jury and refusing to convict their idol.

But I say no more taxpayer dollars wasted on the old prick. Let him go senile in his deteriorated state in confinement behind closed doors for the rest of his life.

Moving forward we need to:
Release the redacted Royal Commission reports.
Ensure proper compensation paid by the church to all victims.
Legally punish priests who don’t report abuse heard in confession.
Remove all tax breaks and subsidies for religion.
Wait as year after year less people attend these institutions and they decline into a state of nothingness.

Lookleft 9th Apr 2020 02:35

Well the Romans tried it, they weren't successful. The Communists tried it, they weren't successful. Now the tree hugging "progressive" lefties are trying it, go your hardest, 2000+ years of history suggests you are wasting your time.

JustinHeywood 9th Apr 2020 04:32


Originally Posted by CoodaShooda (Post 10743312)

Then again, we’ve had past experience with Lindy Chamberlain.

Ah yes, Lindy Chamberlain. This nation’s press and a large proportion of the public (including myself), should hang our heads in shame at that particular example of mob ‘justice’.

gupta 9th Apr 2020 05:54


Originally Posted by JustinHeywood (Post 10744432)
Ah yes, Lindy Chamberlain. This nation’s press and a large proportion of the public (including myself), should hang our heads in shame at that particular example of mob ‘justice’.

Indeed
The first magistrate involved, Dinny Barret in Alice Springs (bless him), found she had no case to answer. The govt of the day didn't like that and overruled

dr dre 9th Apr 2020 09:37


Originally Posted by Lookleft (Post 10744380)
Well the Romans tried it, they weren't successful. The Communists tried it, they weren't successful. Now the tree hugging "progressive" lefties are trying it, go your hardest, 2000+ years of history suggests you are wasting your time.

Hahaha! You think it’s only “tree hugging lefties” and Communists who aren’t going to church anymore??

Organised religious attendance is fading all over the western world.
Only about 10% of Aussies attend church regularly now. Those who do are stacked in the older age brackets.
In Europe regular religious service attendance is down to less than 10% in the UK, Norway, Sweden with most of Western and Eastern Europe not far behind.
Marriages conducted in churches have declined from 65% to less than 20% in Australia over the last 40 years.
Only 4% of Brits attended Church of England Xmas services last decade.
Even in the more religious US of A 3500 churches are closing nationwide per year.
And the trends, and thoughts of younger people, are showing more growth towards secularisation and irreligion every year.

Tiny parts of organised religion may survive but it’ll be looked upon as a historical curiosity rather than something the vast majority of the public hold important in their day to day lives. We’re very close to where Scandinavia is now and this documentary shows how significant religion will be in Australian society soon:



CoodaShooda 9th Apr 2020 22:27

You’ve missed the Russian experience following the collapse of formal communist rule.

The churches reportedly re-emerged very quickly. Possibly reacting to “you don’t know what you’ve got ‘til it’s gone”.

it’s been fashionable over the past century for communists, sorry socialists, sorry progressives (or nowadays is it the watermelon greens) to chip away at the pillars of the old Western societies. The Christian churches have made it easier for them by being unresponsive to change, staunchly patriarchal, often corrupt and a haven for narcissists favouring personal power over ecclesiastical duty to their flocks. These institutions have had their day but this doesn’t necessarily invalidate their underlying belief structures.

You also refer to religion but, by overlooking Confucianism, Bhuddism, Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, The worship of Gaia, Spiritualism and a few thousand other minority belief systems you are really focusing on Christianity here and the Roman Catholic Church in particular.

Funnily enough, we are probably in agreement that this remnant Roman Empire needs massive reform or dissolution, as do the plethora of American televangelists.

But their passing will leave a spiritual vacuum that human nature will fill. Until we know whether this will be benevolent or malevolent, I think I’ll hold off cheering the demise of the Houses of Christ.

Cooda
(Lapsed Anglican whose children variously describe themselves as Shamanic Witch, Sikh and a pilot who thinks he’s god)





dr dre 9th Apr 2020 23:32


Originally Posted by CoodaShooda (Post 10745251)
You’ve missed the Russian experience following the collapse of formal communist rule.

The churches reportedly re-emerged very quickly. Possibly reacting to “you don’t know what you’ve got ‘til it’s gone”.

it’s been fashionable over the past century for communists, sorry socialists, sorry progressives (or nowadays is it the watermelon greens) to chip away at the pillars of the old Western societies.

From what I’ve read the proportion of those who identified as Christian in Russia increased, but religious service is still low, at 7%, putting it in heavily irreligious Scandinavian territory. Thinking you belong to a religion because you went to a religious primary school or your grandma goes to church and then ticking a box on a census form means nothing if you don’t actively attend services.

Again, stop with this Communists/Greens nonsense. Those parties would attract the support of no more than 10% of the Australian population, yet 90% (and rising) of the Australian population are not actively attending church services. That means there’s 80% in the middle who aren’t communists but are also choosing in our free society not to practice religion. The Greens haven’t banned churches, as far as I can see in every suburb in this country there are multiple churches that anyone can freely attend, there are 10 churches within a short walk from my house for example. But 90% of us are not attending them, the pews are almost empty and those that are filled are mostly filled with grey hair.

JustinHeywood 10th Apr 2020 00:31

The decline in organised religion is widely attributed to modern science answering the ‘ mysteries’ of creation and the universe.

The irony is that there is a concurrent rise in all kinds of other wacky, unscientific beliefs. I live in northern NSW. Almost no-one I know believes in a Christian god, but almost everyone has a weird faith in some unproven health product or ‘ancient’ spiritual woo, usually some form of animism.

From where I sit I don’t think the demise of churches will lead to any outbreak of rational behaviour.

Lookleft 10th Apr 2020 23:24


as far as I can see in every suburb in this country there are multiple churches that anyone can freely attend, there are 10 churches within a short walk from my house for example. But 90% of us are not attending them, the pews are almost empty and those that are filled are mostly filled with grey hair.
You must have extraordinary good eyesight! Your cavalier approach to statistics is also an interesting insight into how you approach reality. Maybe you need to get along to some of the inner city churches where there are young people playing gospel music using drums and electric guitars. You might also like to cast your super vision to staid old Presbyterian churches that have services in languages other than English. Don't confuse the self absorbed social media generation in the West for evidence of a decline in Christianity. BTW I wasn't referring to Communists in Australia not going to church, I was referring to the all powerful (once upon a time long long ago) who actively persecuted and banned Christianity in their countries and ultimately failed.

WingNut60 11th Apr 2020 01:10


Originally Posted by Lookleft (Post 10746131)
........... and banned Christianity in their countries and ultimately failed.

Just to be pedantic, they didn't ban Christianity. They banned organised religion.

I have a Muslim friend (a university lecturer) in Kazakhstan who told me that he didn't realise that his family was Muslim until the 1990's.
He used to wonder why his grandfather used to lock himself in the bedroom on Fridays.

PS Worst driver I have ever ridden with.

601 11th Apr 2020 01:20


Originally Posted by WingNut60 (Post 10746191)
Just to be pedantic, they didn't ban Christianity. They banned organised religion.

I have a Muslim friend (a university lecturer) in Kazakhstan who told me that he didn't realise that his family was Muslim until the 1990's.
He used to wonder why his grandfather used to lock himself in the bedroom on Fridays.

PS Worst driver I have ever ridden with.

Have a read of this
Persecution of Christians

dr dre 11th Apr 2020 02:37


Originally Posted by Lookleft (Post 10746131)
You must have extraordinary good eyesight!

Don't need good eyesight to read basic facts:
9% of Aussies actively attending services. Over 60's comprise 21% of the population but 48% of all churchgoers (and this was completed in 2012, would be less now)


Your cavalier approach to statistics is also an interesting insight into how you approach reality.
I'm providing numbers, you're providing anecdotes.


Maybe you need to get along to some of the inner city churches where there are young people playing gospel music using drums and electric guitars.
What those evangelical Pentecostalist "born again" megachurches? Money making scams dressed up as a religion? Who's adherents make up a paltry 1% of the population? I'll grant you their members are generally younger, louder, but they also suffer from a high turnover rate, sucking young people in but losing them after a few years when they grow up. They draw in those who were possibly disaffected by other churches and looking for a quick fix of entertainment but they aren't en masse converting Australia's 90%+ irreligious population. At least the Catholic Church has some historical substance behind it, unlike the total fake marketing driven nonsense of Hillsong style Pentecostalism (not that they haven't had their problems with kiddie fiddlers too).


Don't confuse the self absorbed social media generation in the West for evidence of a decline in Christianity.
I'm not, I'm using statistics and numbers to show proof of a decline in Christianity. (Btw the social media presence of the young Hillsong Born Again mob is one of the most self absorbed I've seen)


BTW I wasn't referring to Communists in Australia not going to church, I was referring to the all powerful (once upon a time long long ago) who actively persecuted and banned Christianity in their countries and ultimately failed.
Christianity won't be banned, as free people in free societies become more educated and rational it'll just fade further and further into irrelevance.

Lookleft 11th Apr 2020 04:53

Ok it is Jet Blast and the weather is rubbish so lets play.

You said:


as far as I can see in every suburb in this country
then you said

Don't need good eyesight to read basic facts
: hardly a statement of fact is it unless you are superman.



I'm providing numbers, you're providing anecdotes.
Whats this then?


the pews are almost empty and those that are filled are mostly filled with grey hair.

What those evangelical Pentecostalist "born again" megachurches?
No I am referring to Anglican, Presbyterian and Baptist. Its actually the other way round. Those who go to Hillsong go to mainstream churches when they want to actually learn about the Gospel and why the Crucifixtion and Resurrection of Jesus Christ is still relevant today as it was 2000+ years ago.


I'm not, I'm using statistics and numbers to show proof of a decline in Christianity. (Btw the social media presence of the young Hillsong Born Again mob is one of the most self absorbed I've seen)
I assume you have a statistic for this statement or is it anecdotal? If it is anecdotal you must be spending a lot of your time on Pentecostal social media


Christianity won't be banned, as free people in free societies become more educated and rational it'll just fade further and further into irrelevance.
You are still missing the point but thats not surprising. The point is if it flourished when it was being banned then why do you think it will just fade away. If it was going to do that then it would have

just fade further and further into irrelevance.
when the Roman Empire and its pagan society was dominant.

layman 11th Apr 2020 06:38

Religion in statistics
 
Australian 2016 Census
https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]%20Summary~70

No Religion: 7,040.7M - 30.1%
Not Answered: 2,238.8M - 9.4% (the question on religion was optional - just over 9% didn't answer)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Australia
No religion has grown from 12.7% (1986) to 30.1% (2016)
Not stated has varied between 9.4% and 12.3% with the total of the two growing from 25.0% (1986) to 39.5% (2016)

The two 'big' movers have been a decline in Christianity and the growth of "No religion"


JustinHeywood
"From where I sit I don’t think the demise of churches will lead to any outbreak of rational behaviour."

Unfortunately I think you're right ….



dr dre 11th Apr 2020 07:50


Originally Posted by Lookleft (Post 10746308)
No I am referring to Anglican, Presbyterian and Baptist. Its actually the other way round. Those who go to Hillsong go to mainstream churches when they want to actually learn about the Gospel and why the Crucifixtion and Resurrection of Jesus Christ is still relevant today as it was 2000+ years ago.

Anglicans, Baptists and Presbyterians have been estimated to have an average weekly attendance figure of around 1-1.5% of the Australian public (and some of those figures are almost 10 years old so today's attendance figures would be lower). The Pentecostalists (ACC, Hillsong, C3) I believe would have more actual attendees than the other protestants (Anglican, Bapt, Presby and Uniting) even though their census numbers are lower.

Now I'm fairly sure when I think of Anglicans, Baptists and Presbyterians what comes to mind isn't "energetic youth centered gospel music with electric guitars". That's the money making tax avoidance schemes called Hillsong, C3, Planetshakers etc


You are still missing the point but thats not surprising. The point is if it flourished when it was being banned then why do you think it will just fade away. If it was going to do that then it would have when the Roman Empire and its pagan society was dominant.
Religion began to fade from society in the 20th century. Things like increased education, increased wealth, increased communications, increased understanding of science, sharing of knowledge via media and the internet. It's not just religious attendance. Even couples who didn't attend church were still expected to be married in the religious institution of their family's faith. But that is now almost gone, from 2/3rds of marriages carried out in churches in the 80's to less than 20% today. That's a huge decline in the last 40 years and it just shows how irrelevant most Australians find religion.

I'd be more inclined to ask you if you believe we in Australia are on the cusp of a massive religious revival over the next few decades and why our now almost secular youth are suddenly going to discover and embrace religion against the trend of the last 60 years?

Lookleft 11th Apr 2020 08:23


Now I'm fairly sure when I think of Anglicans, Baptists and Presbyterians what comes to mind isn't "energetic youth centered gospel music with electric guitars". That's the money making tax avoidance schemes called Hillsong, C3, Planetshakers etc
You seem to think you know an awful lot about a subject that you claim most people have no interest in.


Things like increased education, increased wealth, increased communications, increased understanding of science, sharing of knowledge via media and the internet. It's not just religious attendance.
You seem to think that religion is something that only happens in the West. They have all these things in Asia and Christianity is increasing but the numbers are irrelevant. Even in when Jesus was walking the earth he was rejected even by His own home town. I for one am very happy that the churches are only attended by those who want to be there. The claim that it will just die out with the older generation is laughable. Spoken by a true believer of the religion of science.


I'd be more inclined to ask you if you believe we in Australia are on the cusp of a massive religious revival over the next few decades and why our now almost secular youth are suddenly going to discover and embrace religion against the trend of the last 60 years?
Given the constant barrage of information on youth suicide, rates of depression and the alarming rates of domestic violence I would ask you what has secular society done over the past 60 years to make religion irrelevant?

dr dre 11th Apr 2020 08:46


Originally Posted by Lookleft (Post 10746437)
You seem to think that religion is something that only happens in the West.

No, I'm talking about religion in the West. I know the worldwide religious observance and belief increases with an increase in poverty. The richer a nation gets, the greater their life expectancy becomes and suddenly religion isn't as important, as shown below.


Given the constant barrage of information on youth suicide, rates of depression and the alarming rates of domestic violence I would ask you what has secular society done over the past 60 years to make religion irrelevant?
Correlation does not equal causation, but if you want to argue less religion equals more crime, here's a study from the US showing more religious states have higher murder and crime rates than the more irreligious ones.
Or this one that finds in a lot of regions in the world higher rates of religious participation equal higher suicide rates.

Or a comparison between nations. This is poll of how much importance people in each country value religion. The top 10 countries who value religion the least were France, Finland, The UK, Japan, Hong Kong, Norway, Czech Republic, Sweden, Denmark, Estonia. The top 10 countries who place the most importance in religion were Niger, Ethiopia, Somalia, Bangladesh, Oman, Sri Lanka, Malawi, Indonesia, Yemen and Burundi. Now anyone can easily see which group of nations has a higher quality of life.

So i'll ask you again, what is the catalyst or event that will make our Instagram selfie obsessed, instant gratification, traditional values hating millenials and Gen Z going to reject their heathen ways and embrace faith to restore it back to where it was in the 50's?

601 11th Apr 2020 13:48


So i'll ask you again, what is the catalyst or event that will make our Instagram selfie obsessed, instant gratification, traditional values hating millenials and Gen Z going to reject their heathen ways and embrace faith to restore it back to where it was in the 50's?
When they find all their all important religious iThingy is just that, a thing, no soul, just a cold hard lump of plastic.

dr dre 12th Apr 2020 00:53


Originally Posted by 601 (Post 10746751)
When they find all their all important religious iThingy is just that, a thing, no soul, just a cold hard lump of plastic.

An inanimate object just like the collection of pages known as the bible.


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