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Ovation 17th Apr 2020 02:59


Originally Posted by Crownstay01 (Post 10752120)
I'm wondering why so many of our conservative commenters are staunchly defending people who, at the very least, concealed child abuse and enabled the abuse to continue unhindered. You have to wonder how they'd react if it was their kids being raped.

And Senator Bob Collins (Labor) and Milton Orkopolous (Labor NSW) were angels because they were ALP figures? And Andres Puig — a former assistant state secretary of the Victorian ALP committed suicide when about to be charged was innocent? And Bernard Finnigan (Labor Senator SA) was accidentally put on the sex offenders register?

WingNut60 17th Apr 2020 03:13


Originally Posted by Ovation (Post 10752674)
And Senator Bob Collins (Labor) and Milton Orkopolous (Labor NSW) were angels because they were ALP figures? And Andres Puig — a former assistant state secretary of the Victorian ALP committed suicide when about to be charged was innocent? And Bernard Finnigan (Labor Senator SA) was accidentally put on the sex offenders register?

No. But who's defending them?

megan 17th Apr 2020 03:51


Relevance, Megan?
It's you that raised the subject. You're taking an axe to the Libs, just pointing out Labor has its rats as well, you obviously missed my

no party is without criticism
After all, you did say

I'm wondering why so many of our conservative commenters are staunchly defending people who, at the very least, concealed child abuse and enabled the abuse to continue unhindered. You have to wonder how they'd react if it was their kids being raped
Hawke apparently concealed the rape of his very own daughter because it may have impinged on his elevation, and it was one of his own MP's that allegedly did the raping, let's not get too precious. It ain't just conservatives, the other side is right in there with them.

No. But who's defending them?
I may be a bit thick WN, but I don't see anyone defending any molestation, as for Pell he has had his days in various courts and remains not proven of guilt. Whether he is may be subject of another court case. The final series of the ABC series "Revelation" had Pell hanging from the gallows, the video has now been taken down for re editing - my question would be, why? Possible defimation?

WingNut60 17th Apr 2020 04:06


Originally Posted by megan (Post 10752703)
.............I may be a bit thick WN, but I don't see anyone defending any molestation...........

Thick enough to bark back at my reply to Ovation as though it were addressed to you.

megan 18th Apr 2020 03:06

Hate to tell you WN, but postings are addressing everyone, it ain't a private conversation, else you could have sent him/her a PM. Bark, bark.

WingNut60 18th Apr 2020 03:36


Originally Posted by megan (Post 10753838)
Hate to tell you WN, but postings are addressing everyone, it ain't a private conversation, else you could have sent him/her a PM. Bark, bark.

Of course. I apologise.
I cock my leg to you, madame.

JustinHeywood 18th Apr 2020 05:46


Originally Posted by Crownstay01 (Post 10752120)
I'm wondering why so many of our conservative commenters are staunchly defending people who, at the very least, concealed child abuse and enabled the abuse to continue unhindered. You have to wonder how they'd react if it was their kids being raped.

Let me help you there. Pell was charged with a crime for which he has been found not guilty.

But the lynch mob here, still baying for blood but not now backed by the courts, has now moved on to accusing him of other crimes, and thrown in several guilt-by-association theories and vaguely implied pedophile ‘rings’ exist at the highest level.

Strangely, the bad guys all seem to be or to have ‘links’ to conservative politicians. This could be because conservatives are all terrible people whilst green/left people are pure of heart.
But it could also be that, at its core, this ‘debate’ is driven by hatred and bigotry rather than protecting children.

After all, despite the narrative put forward by the a lot of media and the movies, the vast majority of Christians and Christian clergy are not child molestors, and the vast majority of child abuse occurs in the home.

But to witness the bile that drips from many of the threads here, facts don’t stop a good old fashioned, self-righteous witch hunt.

WingNut60 18th Apr 2020 06:07

Trying to avoid any left / right invective I state clearly that I have no political or sectarian barrow to push in this matter.
And I agree that there will be a smattering of witch hunters among the critics of his release. They tend to be the most vocal. But it doesn't mean that all the others are on a witch hunt too.

But there are a couple of things about this case that cast a shadow over the latest decision.

Firstly, the panel of judges decided that based on trial transcripts which they had read, the jury which found him guilty had erred in that they "should have had reasonable" doubt about the evidence that they had heard from a supposed victim.

Secondly, was Pell's use of the Christopher Skase "I'm too sick to travel" defence. Shot himself in the foot with that one.

Dark Knight 18th Apr 2020 06:20


Secondly, was Pell's use of the Christopher Skase "I'm too sick to travel" defence.
It would appear they all use this, most likely upon their Lawyers advice:
Rolf Harris
Harvey Weinstein
to mention a couple of notables.


WingNut60 18th Apr 2020 08:06


Originally Posted by Dark Knight (Post 10753931)
It would appear they all use this, most likely upon their Lawyers advice:
Rolf Harris
Harvey Weinstein
to mention a couple of notables.

At least Christopher Skase had the decency to up and die.

Ascend Charlie 18th Apr 2020 23:15


At least Christopher Skase had the decency to up and die.
A few Channel 7 people wished that he had MORE decency and gave their pension fund back, or at least died sooner.

megan 19th Apr 2020 07:52

Victoria is one of the few states where judge only trials don't happen, though reconsideration is being given, no doubt because of the Pell case. Some lawyers believe could enhance the right to a fairer court hearing. Premier Daniel Andrews and his Attorney General reiterating on Thursday that he remained committed to making the court system more transparent. “We’ll continue to pursue reforms to make our courts more open and transparent, and make sure suppression orders are exceptions to the principle of open justice,” Ms Hennessy said. Last three sentences extracted from,

https://www.theage.com.au/national/v...13-p50m5u.html

The Pell case is complex, so the following says, and me being a layman has no opinion of the rights and wrongs in the rulings made in each of the three court cases. The jury system is a long way from being perfect, the lawyers get to pick the folk that they think will benefit their case. What is intriguing is that both the jury and High Court decisions were unanimous. Mention has been made in the press re Victoria's Premier and police engaged in a political campaign to bring down Pell, probability? Who knows, but stranger things have occurred. The High Court reasoning,

http://eresources.hcourt.gov.au/downloadPdf/2020/HCA/12

https://theconversation.com/how-geor...icality-133156

The thing about an allegation of pedophilia/hebephilia/ephebophilia is that once so tarred it's a cross you'll bear for life in the community, innocent or not. Of course I have no idea, unlike the USA where juries can give their reasons why they voted as they did, but the jury in Pell's case may have been of a mind that we're sick of the church hiding these cases and we need to make an example, fully believing the testimony given by the lad.

Having engaged in research on historical matters I do view evidence given by witnesses with a jaundiced eye, and have a personal tale in that regard. Was at a reunion sat alongside a fellow course mate and asked him "remember when we were in the Washington Embassy and were told ........." Didn't happen says he, and a few weeks latter sent me documentary proof that it certainly couldn't have happened. Yet in a court of law I would have sworn upon the proverbial stack of bibles as to the veracity of my tale.

dr dre 19th Apr 2020 08:17


Originally Posted by WingNut60 (Post 10753922)
Firstly, the panel of judges decided that based on trial transcripts which they had read, the jury which found him guilty had erred in that they "should have had reasonable" doubt about the evidence that they had heard from a victim.

Just to clarify, the High Court didn’t read the transcript or visit the cathedral or inspect the robes or rule on anything beyond a narrow few points of law as demanded by Pell’s high priced lawyers. They also spent the least amount of time reviewing the evidence.

The bodies that did view and review ALL the evidence some over a period of several years (the Police, Prosecutors, Trial Judge, Jury, Appeals Court) concluded Pell was guilty.

But for me this goes well beyond a single court case. This is about decades of cover up that’s continued up until today. For instance the strong pushback against the Royal Commission into Institutionalised Child Abuse from quite a few vested interests. The excuses promoted by the Church and their allies:
“It happened decades ago”
”It happened in other countries not here”
”It’s a communist ploy to destroy the church”
”The church was infiltrated by homosexuals”
”The ratio of abusers in public schools was higher (false)”

The one statistic that should be viewed above all others, as determined by a 5 year Royal Commission over 1800 employees of the Church involved in 4500 incidents of child abuse in Australia.

Can anyone honestly say that if 1800 employees of any other company, organisation or group in Australia had been implicated in child abuse that the particular organisation would have been shut down and not a single person would admit to ever having been a part of it?


601 19th Apr 2020 12:36


But for me this goes well beyond a single court case.
Sorry but this WAS about a single court case.

CoodaShooda 19th Apr 2020 13:09

dr dre

You appear to have a good grasp of the statistics. To help me form an answer to your final para above:

How many people were “employed” by the Catholic Church In Australia over the period the offences identified by the Royal Commission occurred?

How many of the offences identified by the Royal Commission were the subject of criminal trial and subsequent conviction? How many were untested allegations by a victim?

How many paedophile priests were protected by elements within the various State Police Forces resulting in many hundreds of real victims to a comparatively small cadre of perpetrators?

Pinky the pilot 20th Apr 2020 10:02

Changing the subject; Seems that Malcolm Turnbull's book which was released today has a bit more of the spleen venting angst than some of the previous examples. Could prove to be an interesting read but I won't be buying it!

Might just wait and see how the sales actually go. I still remember when Bob Hawke brought out his book.
About two months after it was released I saw at a Target Store in Adelaide a shopping trolley full of them.
Remaindered at $5 a copy!:}

layman 20th Apr 2020 10:35

Not necessarily replete with the statistics requested, and a bit of a long read, the Wikipedia article may be worth your time (It seems to be a reasonably balanced description of activities within the Catholic Church to help put things in context).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cath...s_in_Australia
A couple of things that stood out to me are that Bishop Mulkearns knew about Gerald Risdale in 1975 and, in 20 years, never took action, and the 10 ongoing civil cases involving George Pell

Lookleft 20th Apr 2020 11:39

Even better wait until the book is at an op shop for 50c. Other than meida attention who really cares what Malcolm thinks. Along with Rudd, Gillard, Abbott and Shorten they were all just as bad as each other trying to be PM and in the end they got what they deserved.

Crownstay01 22nd Apr 2020 13:08


Originally Posted by JustinHeywood (Post 10753911)
Let me help you there.

Let me help you instead - I was referring to folks like you when I mentioned conservative commentators.

Did you forget about the things I mentioned, or were you never aware of them in the first place?

and FWIW, Pell wasn't found to be "not guilty".

601 22nd Apr 2020 13:59


and FWIW, Pell wasn't found to be "not guilty".
But you are innocent until proven guilty.
So in the eyes of the law, he has not been proven guilty so therefore is innocent.


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