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-   -   BREXIT (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/619673-brexit.html)

andytug 24th Mar 2019 19:46


Originally Posted by Fitter2 (Post 10428597)
Ah, but whose 'facts'? Three years ago the government and treasury facts were of an instsnt financial crash, mass unemployment, etc. Every forcast since then has underestimated the growth in the UK economy (and overestimated the financial stability of our friends in the EU).

That is by far the biggest problem. No one is telling the truth, and quite a lot of them have no idea what the truth is so are making it up as they go along. Not a great way for anyone to come to an informed decision.

Pontius Navigator 24th Mar 2019 22:15


Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 (Post 10428559)
Well you could start with those who think Britain could still save Europe as it apparently did in the last three centuries.

Aside from my mother-in-law who lived through the Blitz I am not sure that is a significant number. Of that original poster who would be under 93?

​​​​​​​I concede the beer swilling louts that are reported regularly in the papers might evince such views.

Pontius Navigator 24th Mar 2019 22:35

Pax


So why no second referendum , parliament cannot decide so ask the people again , democracy is all about being able to change your mind as David Davis said back in 2012.
I think the reasons have been expounded in JB ad nauseam with what options to pose and the time in which to hold it. What to do if there is a similar narrow margin?

Even a GE is no answer as a GE determines which party forms a Government and not which Government will revoke Art 50 or press on.

As they say, we are where we are. Parliament was charged with carrying out the will of the people and should sort out the mess. A PM, prepared to negotiate with the EU is needed.

Kicking the can down the road for days, weeks, months, even years will only achieve uncertainty.

Well maybe not years, 2nd 'meaningful' referendum in two years. Remain - we carry on as before. Leave - we leave asap, no Art 50 two year non sense.

oldairphot 25th Mar 2019 00:52


Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 (Post 10425449)
It's nationalist stupidity like that, that got us into the shit we are in now.

It is also to a degree the attitude and national pride that got the white flag wavers of Europe out of the shit as you put it twice in less than a hundred years

Bob Viking 25th Mar 2019 03:31

SallyAnn et al
 
If you truly believe that the ranks of the Brexiteers are full of such people then I might counter by saying itís the condascending, supercilious attitude of some that got us to where we are now.

As a further aside I feel like mentioning how all of us (despite any claims of righteousness) voted for personal and selfish reasons. Which is absolutely correct.

A guy I knew at work spent weeks preaching about how Brexit is terrible etc and a vote to Remain was for the greater good. He didnít initially mention that his retirement plans involved moving to France and he was therefore very personally invested in the whole freedom of movement element of the EU.

Sallyann. Do you reside in Germany or are you just visiting?

BV

wiggy 25th Mar 2019 08:25


Originally Posted by Bob Viking (Post 10428892)


A guy I knew at work spent weeks preaching about how Brexit is terrible etc and a vote to Remain was for the greater good. He didnít initially mention that his retirement plans involved moving to France and he was therefore very personally invested in the whole freedom of movement element of the EU.

And??

If his retirement plans were well advanced he was hopefully better clued up than many in the UK on the realities of FoM and passport control into/out off the UK, the euro, wether bendy Bananas were really banned from French supermarkets etc..In fact I hope he was seen as valuable resource in whatever arena discussions took place to balance some of the nonsense in the UK MSM...I'd certainly hope the information he came up with and his opinions weren't discounted just on the basis of his retirement plans.

ATNotts 25th Mar 2019 09:27

Exrigger


In my opinion, based on chatting with my circle of friends, colleagues and family, the option to exit under WTO rules will get more votes than accept a deal and together will attract more votes than the remain option, so that will not be the chosen version.
Given that you reside in / near Lincoln that's hardly surprising. Add to that, generally we live in a echo-chamber environment where our friends tend to be the same age group and hold largely the same opinions. That is statistically proven, added to which there is a tendency for the more submissive members of a circle to coalesce behind the views of the stronger members - so what they say to you may be nuanced and exactly what they really think.

That's true of your friends, my friends - everybody's friends.

Pontius Navigator 25th Mar 2019 09:52

Wiggy, did you miss the word immediately?

It may be true that he was well informed but as BV frequently reminds us. Confirmation bias.

A person, having decided on a course of action as being the best for him is unlikely to admit that their view is skewed and wrong. Not declaring their true position at the outset is likely to skew one's views of their argument when you discover their real interests. It is for that reason that Members are required to publish detailed under on their interests and public servants declare hospitality received. The latter also applies in many professions too.

Pontius Navigator 25th Mar 2019 09:56


so what they say to you may be nuanced and exactly the opposite of what they really think.

That's true of your friends, my friends - everybody's friends.
To a point, but I have certainly experienced in my club and my family opposite views and never the scorn and insults seen here.

ATNotts 25th Mar 2019 10:12


Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator (Post 10429048)
To a point, but I have certainly experienced in my club and my family opposite views and never the scorn and insults seen here.

Similar for me, my family (say) they are all remainers, my mother is a convert to remain from leave. Most of my friends (say) the a remainers but I have one friend who is an ardent, flag displaying, brexiteer. We tend not to get too involved in discussion on Brexit as friendship is at the end of the day more important.

Sallyann1234 25th Mar 2019 11:00


Originally Posted by Bob Viking (Post 10428892)
Sallyann. Do you reside in Germany or are you just visiting?

Neither is required to be using a German IP address.

wiggy 25th Mar 2019 11:23


Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator (Post 10429045)
Wiggy, did you miss the word immediately?

It may be true that he was well informed but as BV frequently reminds us. Confirmation bias.

No I didn't miss immediately and I'm not sure that changes the underlying point...but in the spirit of declaring an interest at this stage I'd better declare immediately that I live In France. Also I'll declare I'm an UK ex-mil aviator/instructor (I think BV is possibly too young to have been "one of mine"?) and for quite some time now an aviator in the civil world (British company) so I do have a vague grasp of what confirmation bias means but thanks all for the repeated reminders...


I'd agree there's certainly room for confirmation bias if our semi-fictious retiree simply went around saying as a simple opinion "FoM good, Brexit bad" . OTOH would you dismiss as say, confirmation bias if our now famous semi-fictious retiree came back from time in France and said:

" Despite what the Mail is saying about trade restrictions I was able to buy New Zealand lamb and some bent bananas at the weekend in LeClerc in Calais/Paris/ Bordeaux/ pretty much any other large French town"?

You can't simply yell "confirmation bias" every time you want a fast counter to a "Remain" POV, or observation...but I guess "project fear" is a bit worn out by now

(For the avoidance of any doubt - you yes can buy all that stuff in Aldi/LeClerc/Lidl etc).

NoelEvans 25th Mar 2019 12:03


Originally Posted by ATNotts (Post 10429066)
... but I have one friend who is an ardent, flag displaying, brexiteer. We tend not to get too involved in discussion on Brexit as friendship is at the end of the day more important.

What a nice comment. It would be so nice if a few more on here thought that way.

cattletruck 25th Mar 2019 12:14

I read this in my morning paper today and thought it to be very witty, one of the British Brexit protesters held a placard that read

"Ikea has better cabinets"

Pontius Navigator 25th Mar 2019 12:26

Wiggy, my point really hinged on the failure to declare an
​​​​interest at the outset. The rest of your point is valid. Mine is one of distrust of someone that does not declare their interest. As you say hypothetical, what we don't know is how long out was before his interest was declared.

Exrigger 25th Mar 2019 13:53


So why no second referendum , parliament cannot decide so ask the people again , democracy is all about being able to change your mind as David Davis said back in 2012.
And just as likely to have democratically changed his mind several times since 2012 to what he now thinks is good for him, so that is no excuse.

Buster11 25th Mar 2019 15:02

Could some of those who favour Brexit tell us exactly what aspects of Britain's EU membership have affected them personally in an adverse way.

Bob Viking 25th Mar 2019 15:35

Buster
 
They take £350M a week of our hard earned money that could be better spent on the NHS...

Iím sorry. I couldnít resist.

BV

Sallyann1234 25th Mar 2019 15:46

Three minutes of laughter or tears

LowNSlow 25th Mar 2019 15:58

Buster11 I think having the EU to blame for anything that wasn't liked by the British public has resulted in our politicians becoming the most incapable shower for generations.
The lack of honesty by every British Prime Minister since Harold Wilson about the intended ever closer political union first proposed by Jean Monnet and Arthur Salter in the 1920's has ended my trust in our so-called leaders which ahs been compounded by out current PM making a fiasco of the leave process.
The major lack of understanding by most people of how far the EU has intruded into our law and how, currently, British Law is legally subservient to EU Law. Your average Remain voter also has, in my experience, a very poor understanding of how the ECB can over-rule any European Central Bank and potentially demand funds from the 28 countries to cover the TARGET2 liabilities.

So to finally answer your question, no direct adverse impact apart from not being able to fly EASA aircraft on my old-school CAA licence but I do think the move of "competencies" to the EU from national establishments like the CAA reduces the country's overall abilities to manage itself.

Sallyanne that clip was excellent and shows that every Government needs a scapegoat and the EU was ours and apparently we were the Eu and the remaining 27's!


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