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bpilatus 22nd Aug 2019 14:54


Originally Posted by racedo
Big difference. Germany has acknowledged its past and will continue to do so. It has paid for it in DM / Euros and will continue to do so.

Germany let in a couple of million migrants in last couple of years and guess WHAT ?
They settled down, stayed, learned German, integrated.

Where to start with this misguided revisionist garbage?

Okay, so reparations are now paid to Greece? Odd it never made the news.

2 million integrated really? Cloud cuckoo land.

Thank you for reading
(Lunch was lovely, thanks for asking)

Jack D 22nd Aug 2019 16:29


Originally Posted by racedo (Post 10551760)
Big difference. Germany has acknowledged its past and will continue to do so. It has paid for it in DM / Euros and will continue to do so.

Germany let in a couple of million migrants in last couple of years and guess WHAT ?
They settled down, stayed, learned German, integrated, got jobs.

US / UK berating Germany because it refuses to spend billions on weapons in 2019, it saw militarism, it doesn't want it and there is no stomach for it nor will there ever be again. If called upon it will defend itself but I don't see it seeking war.

UK attitude on Ireland I don't see as having changed. When media / politicians still excuse people who shot 14 innocent people dead and demand that nothing is ever done against individuals there or anywhere else you see a mindset unchanged. If I see the mindset here in the UK, how do you think it sits with people in Ireland.

In Dublin a month ago and someone on Brexit said, "Happy to suffer badly if it finally kills the Empire mentality in London for ever", he was a sole minority view but when he should be a friend he sees BBC / Sky News and reads UK media.

Quite the most nonsensical post I have read for some time !
There is no comparison ... none . Nevertheless that’s in the past is it not ? we have to trust each other to some extent, except the French of course.

ThorMos 22nd Aug 2019 16:31


Originally Posted by bpilatus (Post 10551776)
Where to start with this misguided revisionist garbage?

Okay, so reparations are now paid to Greece? Odd it never made the news.

2 million integrated really? Cloud cuckoo land.

Thank you for reading
(Lunch was lovely, thanks for asking)

Oh Dear, revisionist? Do you know what that means? The only revisionist garbage i see here is from Brexiteers. And maybe you don't know it, but the payments re reparations towards greece and other countries made the news in the 1960s. And 2x10^6 integrated? Well, you know, we integrated 1,7x10^7 people in the 1990s, we have some experience...

Jack D 22nd Aug 2019 16:43


Originally Posted by ThorMos (Post 10551839)
Oh Dear, revisionist? Do you know what that means? The only revisionist garbage i see here is from Brexiteers. And maybe you don't know it, but the payments re reparations towards greece and other countries made the news in the 1960s. And 2x10^6 integrated? Well, you know, we integrated 1,7x10^7 people in the 1990s, we have some experience...

What you mean is 1.7 million people mainly Turks came to work in German factories together with assorted people from the Balkans.
They did not integrate very well ,were denied citizenship and created their own ghettos and sub culture together with broken German speech and associated criminal activities.
So not real integration I’m afraid, don’t worry the UK has a fair bit of practice with this as well

A thought , do you think our friends across the Irish Sea will offer to repatriate the colourful “ traveller” community that graces our fair shores and seem reluctant to venture homeward for some reason.

ThorMos 22nd Aug 2019 16:45


Originally Posted by Jack D (Post 10551852)


What you mean is 1.7 million people mainly Turks came to work in German factories together with assorted people from the Balkans.
They did not integrate very well ,were denied citizenship and created their own ghettos and sub culture together with broken German speech and associated criminal activities.
So not real integration I’m afraid, don’t worry the UK has a fair bit of practice with this as well

A thought , do you think our friends across the Irish Sea will offer to repatriate the colourful “ traveller” community that graces our fair shores and seem reluctant to venture homeward for some reason.

No, you are wrong, that's not what i meant...

pineridge 22nd Aug 2019 18:02

Fly Aipt said...
"I believe they are gonna leave"


I don`t know what your natural language is, and I must say that you write very well, but your use of the word(?)" gonna" makes
you sound uneducated.
..

wiggy 22nd Aug 2019 18:27

Brexit Beach Party - anyone going?


Nearly 10,000 people have signed up for the proposed event that would allow people to sit in deckchairs looking out to sea as "Great Britain wakes up as a closed institution" while enjoying "Dutch chips, French wine and German beer".

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top...ands-1-6228534

virginblue 22nd Aug 2019 18:52

Funny how different the perception of BoJo's tour to Berlin and Paris has been in the media on the continent and in the UK press.

The Daily Mail makes it look as if Merkel and Macron have waived the white flag and BoJo got a no prisoners taken victory with the promise of the possibility of a re-negotiated deal.

In fact all he got is that Merkel/Macron said if you can do magic and come up with a solution that avoids the backstop within the next 30 days before the leave date, then the 2 year post-Brexit period to find such a solution that can avoid the backstop is - obviously - unnecessary and the backstop can be scrapped.

So in the real world they said stop talking/promising and begin delivering by coming up with your magic virtual border solution within the next 30 days - or there will be a no deal Brexit.

Realistically, all he got is that his remaining time for avoiding armageddon was effectively slashed by more than half from 70 or so to 30 days.

Jack D 22nd Aug 2019 19:14

Bojo got nothing, all too true. While everyone obsesses about this backstop business there are many other points of the existing proposed deal which are to say the least unpalatable.

The backstop is s most convenient “ stumbling block “ to provoke a no deal exit and restart all negotiations from scratch.

​​​​​​​Only perhaps of course !

Blossy 22nd Aug 2019 19:29

I suggest that this thread be called Ranting Remainers. They make the most noise here. I suspect most PPRune readers do not wish to get involved with the everlasting un-necessary fuss.

Jack D 22nd Aug 2019 19:41


Originally Posted by Blossy (Post 10551940)
I suggest that this thread be called Ranting Remainers. They make the most noise here. I suspect most PPRune readers do not wish to get involved with the everlasting un-necessary fuss.

You are so right ! Finis

yellowtriumph 22nd Aug 2019 19:55


Originally Posted by virginblue (Post 10551925)
Funny how different the perception of BoJo's tour to Berlin and Paris has been in the media on the continent and in the UK press.

The Daily Mail makes it look as if Merkel and Macron have waived the white flag and BoJo got a no prisoners taken victory with the promise of the possibility of a re-negotiated deal.

In fact all he got is that Merkel/Macron said if you can do magic and come up with a solution that avoids the backstop within the next 30 days before the leave date, then the 2 year post-Brexit period to find such a solution that can avoid the backstop is - obviously - unnecessary and the backstop can be scrapped.

So in the real world they said stop talking/promising and begin delivering by coming up with your magic virtual border solution within the next 30 days - or there will be a no deal Brexit.

Realistically, all he got is that his remaining time for avoiding armageddon was effectively slashed by more than half from 70 or so to 30 days.

As I see it, Boris went to see Merkel and Macron and has come back with a time limited period to come up with some alternative suggestions to the backstop. No doubt he will propose some suggestions at a time of his choosing and these suggestions will naturally be rejected out of hand by Merkel and Macron. Boris will then proclaim that he tried absolutely everything to 'get a deal' but that the EU has rejected the UK's quite reasonable suggestions. In this way he can claim the EU has caused our no-deal exit.

Surprised Merkel and Macron walked into this one, Johnson really is playing a PR blinder.

bpilatus 22nd Aug 2019 20:35


Originally Posted by yellowtriumph
Surprised Merkel and Macron walked into this one, Johnson really is playing a PR blinder.

It's not just PR. Boris and his advisors are doing very well indeed.

Shame treason may got away with doing so little for so long.

ORAC 22nd Aug 2019 20:35

The significant fact is that both Merkel and Macron gave Boris thirty days.

That means, and both must have known it as a result, that parliament will not defeat him in a vote of no confidence in early September. Further, parliament will recess for the party conferences, sitting again on 8th October.

Assuming the government then puts forward a proposal to the EU, it will be discussed at the EU Summit just over a week later on 17-18th October. It can be assumed that parliament will also not not pass legislation to tie the hands of the PM, or a vote of no confidence, in that week.

The next day parliament after the Summit sits is Tuesday 22nd Oct. The window for those opposing Brexit to take control of business in the HoC, raise a bill and pass it through 3 stages in both the House and Lords nd get Royal Assent, has narrowed to 9 days.

Merkel might not be as blatant as seeing Brexit as now both inevitable and required - but her actions speak as plainly.

dr dre 23rd Aug 2019 00:43


Originally Posted by yellowtriumph (Post 10551961)
As I see it, Boris went to see Merkel and Macron and has come back with a time limited period to come up with some alternative suggestions to the backstop.

So he’s got 30 days (well 28 days now) to come up with an alternative to the backstop?

Considering the withdrawal agreement was published 9 months ago (and BoJo started campaigning for a Brexit 3.5 years ago) if they’ve known about the supposed problem of the backstop since last November, and have proposed no alternative plan in the in meantime, how can they come up with a magic solution in the next 28 days?

wiggy 23rd Aug 2019 05:44


Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 10551996)
The significant fact is that both Merkel and Macron gave Boris thirty days.


You (all) do appreciate that neither Merkel or Macron have given Mr Johnson a thirty day deadline don't you?

According to the German speakers what Angela Merkel said was that Mr Johnson was involved in a potentially long process, one that might take two years or thirty days ...that time was obviously of the essence, but if Mr Johnson thought he could do it in thirty days then he should feel free.

Johnson in his reply then effectively committed to doing it in 30 days.

Of course the bulk of the UK media, either through a lack of language skills/ and or just for pure spin, portrayed this as Merkel setting a deadline, which fits nicely into the "it"s the EUs fault" narrative.

There is a longer but much better explanation here:

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/ar...rexit-backstop

..as it correctly says at the end, it wasn't Merkel who said “Wir schaffen das".

Krystal n chips 23rd Aug 2019 05:46


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 10552116)


So he’s got 30 days (well 28 days now) to come up with an alternative to the backstop?

Considering the withdrawal agreement was published 9 months ago (and BoJo started campaigning for a Brexit 3.5 years ago) if they’ve known about the supposed problem of the backstop since last November, and have proposed no alternative plan in the in meantime, how can they come up with a magic solution in the next 28 days?

This may involve a large top hat and waving a stick.....hopefully, no rabbits will be hurt in the process.

"Johnson really is playing a PR blinder ".....

Oh really ?....does the term "substance over form " mean anything to you at all ?.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...macron-cartoon

Here's the headlines.....as expected, the daily rags continue to boost their readers morale with the standard hyperbole....facts have never been prominent in their reporting anyway, hence precedents are unlikely in this respect

However, take a look at the photo on the front of the Torygraph.......Boris showing his nonchalant arrogance with a foot on the coffee table...... pure clarse baby !.......except that it isn't. It's pure crass ignorance .

Whenever I've encountered anybody who sits with his feet on the desk, I may not be alone here, then I happily reciprocate, not by putting my own feet on the desk, but by treating them with the contempt they deserve....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-49443132

SaulGoodman 23rd Aug 2019 05:59

KnC

Seeing your link I must conclude that UK newspapers (tabloids) are mostly a disgrace to journalism. I am considering myself lucky that the shouting tabloids are very limited in my country. The shouting headlines are confined to the coffee tables of women hair salons and nail studios.

But it does give good idea how the UK media has presented the news, and Brexit to the masses.

ORAC 23rd Aug 2019 06:25


You (all) do appreciate that neither Merkel or Macron have given Mr Johnson a thirty day deadline don't you?
You miss my point, which is that no matter how it was intended, they have given BJ another 30 days of grace in Parliament, and up to the EU Summit where whatever he offers will, undoubtedly, be rejected.

They can can have done to defeat the inevitable blame game once the UK is out of the EU, but the result is the same - they have massively increased the risk of that occurring. That I expected from Macron. The other point I was making was that I found Merkel doing so surprising.

SMT Member 23rd Aug 2019 06:35

UK media has always been a disgrace when it comes to reporting most issues, and overwhelming so when it comes to matters EU related. This is personified in the very person presently occupying No. 10, and it therefore cannot come as any surprise other EU leaders prefer keeping him at arms length. He's proven time and again to be a lying, unreliable, stuffed up windbag with little to no redeeming qualities.

As for the mental gymnastics displayed here, on the back of reporting by UK media, there's nothing really surprising. A large part of the UK electorate are still falling for the assumption the EU will bend over backwards to accommodate their silly ideas. And they're also, along with the government representing them, thinking it's the job of the EU to come up with a solution for their self-inflicted problems, rather than the other way around.

Well, what this latest round of meetings with M&M have shown, is that the EU is not about to create the solutions the UK is either incapable or unwilling to do themselves. Rather, they've given the UK 30 days to stop moaning and come up with a viable solution. No more 'we don't like this, that or the other but we can't articulate what it is we want'; it's time to sh1t or get off the pot. BoJo and cohorts have said there's a technical solution to the Irish border issue, and the EU have said 'fine, very well, show it to us then'. I fully expect the UK coming back saying 'we can't make it work, you make it work for us', the reply to which is bound to be something along the lines of 'sod off'.


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