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racedo 21st Aug 2019 11:47


Originally Posted by SaulGoodman (Post 10550496)
ATNotts,

A hard Brexit was also deemed a very unlikely outcome. However after the WA was declined it has actually been the only likely outcome in case of a Brexit.

Although a “no deal” makes Irish unification more likely then ever before I do not see it actually happen. I don’t believe there is enough interest in the ROI for reunification and why should they? But I might be wrong...

HM Government actually said the CTA is seriously endangered in case of “no deal”.

Think you have zero clue of Irish history.

On 30th of April 1916 there was little support for the men who carried out the Easter Rising in Dublin and Ashbourne, at Christmas 1916 as they came home from Frongoch Prisoner of War camp they were greeted as heroes.

Most Irish people I know see it so long way off that they don't express much of an opinion, well that was before June 2016, different view now, especially when UK Govt making it clear their economy will be destroyed by Brexit.

LowNSlow 21st Aug 2019 12:12

Fly Aiprt you are missing the point. It is nothing to do with the UK applying for membership of the EEC, it's the fact that the British people were deliberately misled by the British Government of the day, and every subsequent British Government, that the end game was a United Europe and not just a Common Market which was the sales pitch of the 1975 referendum.

Pretty much every country in Europe has been referred to as the "sick man of Europe" including the EU itself.

Una Due Tfc 21st Aug 2019 12:16


Originally Posted by NoelEvans (Post 10550374)
Yet another person who does not read before posting.

Neither Britain nor Ireland are in Schengen and never have been. They are in the Common Travel Area which predates Schengen by over seven decades.

If you are a Romanian Gypsy and you have an EU passport you will be able to enter the UK directly as visitor, the same way that many other nationalities can do. You would not be permitted to stay though. No need to go all the way around through Ireland just to do that.

If you were a Latvian drug dealer that Britain did not want in the country, then Ireland would most likely have that information too. Way back to 1923 part of the agreement was that the two countries would work together on matters like that and that Ireland would know who is personae non gratae in the UK.

I think that you are trying to imagine 'problems' that just aren't there.

Unlike the divisions in Belgium which seems to make the Brits look delightfully harmonious.

Meow, someone’s defensive. Another poster either deliberately ignoring the facts to suit their fairytale....or just not hearing them

The issue for your border is not the free movement of British or Irish nationals over it, so the CTA is irrelevant. Anyone holding an EU passport has and will have free movement to and within ROI. They can stay within ROI for as long as they want without any monitoring whatsoever. How will you, Britain, prevent them from getting to Belfast/London/Edinburgh etc without any kind of border? How will you even know they’ve entered the UK?



Una Due Tfc 21st Aug 2019 12:19


Originally Posted by Fitter2 (Post 10550431)
Fly Aiprt


But there already is a Schengen like agreement between ROI and UK (plus Isle of Man and Channel Islands) - it's called the Common Travel Area, and predates Schengen by over half a Century

As said the point is not free movement of British or Irish, it’s how are you going to monitor EU nationals entering the UK without a border?

NutLoose 21st Aug 2019 12:24

It would be simpler for all if we simply traded Northern Ireland for Greenland ;)

Jack D 21st Aug 2019 12:28



One of the major problems with the English is that they see almost everything in Europe in economic terms ( a "nation of shopkeepers" no less) and seem oblivious to the emotional factors that drive the whole set-up[/QUOTE]

Wasn't that quote attributed to Napoleon ? ... we all know what happened to him, also a shorthouse btw !

I believe it is not the economic issues that drive the desire to leave the EU, more the annoyance of constant interference, red tape and a wish to return to full judicial independence. Shopkeepers are an independent bunch after all !

Interestingly ROI is one of the UK,s largest trade partners within the EU and vice versa ( distance matters it seems) Hopefully the trade arrangements on both sides will allow this fruitful cooperation to continue, despite Varadkers blind allegiance to his masters in Brussels .


Mr Optimistic 21st Aug 2019 12:29

Isn't that why leaving the EU = a controlled border, not having one is only compatible with staying in the EU to all practical purposes. Now if we could get the Irish to come and join us...but I guess they are a net recipient.
My attitude to the EU has hardened considerably. As a financial and political entity the EU has problems ( UK, Greece, Spain, Italy, Hungary and the German refusal to distribute its budget surplus), not to mention the imminent trade negotiations with the UK when the EU will be forced to adopt the hardest stance proposed by its most affected constituent as it lacks effective internal negotiation. All well and good when the only path is expansion but.....

bpilatus 21st Aug 2019 12:51


Originally Posted by Mr Optimistic
Isn't that why leaving the EU = a controlled border, not having one is only compatible with staying in the EU to all practical purposes.

No.

For all 'practical purposes' there is no need for an Irish 'border' between Eire and NI as far as UK and Eire are concerned.

The only griping about the need for a border are eu know-nothing and their UK army of remoaners.

Everyone knows that it is darkest just before dawn, and that the remainiac wailing will be loudest just before 'brexit'.

Thank you for reading.

Mr Optimistic 21st Aug 2019 12:55

No problem. Seems to me that if you have concerns about 'sovereignty' then the power to control your own borders is crucial, even if it is only a question of principle rather than necessarily of practice. To want to distance yourself from the EU but at the same time promising no border seems a fundamental contradiction, as a previous nebulous idiot in No 10 seems not to have understood.

bpilatus 21st Aug 2019 13:02


Originally Posted by Mr Optimistic
Seems to me that if you have concerns about 'sovereignty' then the power to control your own borders is crucial...

Yes. The 'power' to determine whether we (UK & Eire) want or need a border on the island of Ireland should be a sovereign matter, not an EU one, you're quite right.

Thank you for reading.

NoelEvans 21st Aug 2019 13:02


Originally Posted by SaulGoodman (Post 10550453)
Ok. So the CTA pre dates the Schengen area. Fine.
Now that the UK is about to leave the EU, don’t you think that the ROI may actually opt to join Schengen? Probably even more likely in case of “no deal”.




Any action by the Irish government that put the CTA at risk (and joining Schengen would surely make that a certainty) would mean them having to face the ire (excuse the pun!) of the Irish population. Looking at the UK resident posters here who themselves, or thought their Irish parents/grandparents, have benefitted from the CTA enabling them to move freely to the UK and settle here. The removal of that ability by any action such as joining Schengen would probably be 'terminal' for the Irish government of the day.

Fly Aiprt 21st Aug 2019 13:02


Originally Posted by LowNSlow (Post 10550662)
It is nothing to do with the UK applying for membership of the EEC, it's the fact that the British people were deliberately misled by the British Government of the day, and every subsequent British Government, that the end game was a United Europe and not just a Common Market which was the sales pitch of the 1975 referendum.

With such a public campaign, Parliament speeches, lots of press reports, all those years between the first application and the final third one, how come the Brits could have been "deliberately misled" ?
If anything, maybe some of them deliberately ignored the information at their disposal.
Or is it because they massively voted 'remain' at the time, that you think they "must have been deliberately misled" ?

Oh and BTW, what if that were the Brexit voters that had been "deliberately misled by the British Governement"^^?



Originally Posted by LowNSlow (Post 10550662)
Pretty much every country in Europe has been referred to as the "sick man of Europe" including the EU itself.


Not sure it changes anything with the bad situation of the UK in the 60'-70'.

NoelEvans 21st Aug 2019 13:09


Originally Posted by bpilatus (Post 10550701)
Yes. The 'power' to determine whether we (UK & Eire) want or need a border on the island of Ireland should be a sovereign matter, not an EU one, you're quite right.

Thank you for reading.

I fully agree. What comes across as really shallow political point scoring is politicians from elsewhere in Europe bleating on about "the backstop is essential to protect the border in Ireland" when those politicians clearly do not have clue what they are talking about. It is as bpilatus says,an "UK & Eire" matter first and foremost. Politicians wanting to help would be nice to hear from but those digging in their heels saying 'the backstop must stay' are the ones most likely to harm the GFA.

Una Due Tfc 21st Aug 2019 13:12


Originally Posted by NoelEvans (Post 10550702)
Any action by the Irish government that put the CTA at risk (and joining Schengen would surely make that a certainty) would mean them having to face the ire (excuse the pun!) of the Irish population. Looking at the UK resident posters here who themselves, or thought their Irish parents/grandparents, have benefitted from the CTA enabling them to move freely to the UK and settle here. The removal of that ability by any action such as joining Schengen would probably be 'terminal' for the Irish government of the day.

You really couldn’t be more wrong. Ireland is far more pro EU than pro UK, and being told what I should feel by an English person only reminds me why. If the CTA has to go to preserve our free movement within the EU, so be it. The UK is our largest single trading partner, but overall we trade far more with the EU as a whole.

Fly Aiprt 21st Aug 2019 13:14


Originally Posted by bpilatus (Post 10550690)
No.

For all 'practical purposes' there is no need for an Irish 'border' between Eire and NI as far as UK and Eire are concerned.

The only griping about the need for a border are eu know-nothing and their UK army of remoaners.

No need to call names and insult your European neighbours and countrymen.
Have you designed a clever way of regaining control of your borders ? If so, by all means feel free to let us know.

Mr Optimistic 21st Aug 2019 13:16

@Fly, is that what you really meant to say?
ps, I don't think the English need to be told that the Irish value others more !

bpilatus 21st Aug 2019 13:31


Originally Posted by Fly Aiprt
Have you designed a clever way of regaining control of your borders?

Yes.

It is called 'brexit' and it means that our sovereign government (and only our sovereign government) decides how we manage our borders.

It is so, so, simple I am surprised it hasn't 'clicked' yet for you.

Thank you for reading

Una Due Tfc 21st Aug 2019 13:32


Originally Posted by bpilatus (Post 10550701)
Yes. The 'power' to determine whether we (UK & Eire) want or need a border on the island of Ireland should be a sovereign matter, not an EU one, you're quite right.

Thank you for reading.

That’s your opinion and you are perfectly entitled to it. However it is not the case. Ireland is part of the EU and the population is pro EU. As part of the EU, Ireland allows free entry and movement of EU citizens. How do you think the UK can monitor EU citizens entering Britain via NI without a border?

Sallyann1234 21st Aug 2019 13:38


Originally Posted by bpilatus (Post 10550728)
Yes.

It is called 'brexit' and it means that our sovereign government (and only our sovereign government) decides how we manage our borders.

It is so, so, simple I am surprised it hasn't 'clicked' yet for you.

Thank you for reading

So you have no answer, only the magic word 'Brexit'.

​​​​​​Brexit is an end in itself and there is no plan for what follows it. Good luck with that.

.

bpilatus 21st Aug 2019 13:40


Originally Posted by Una Due Tfc
How do you think the UK can monitor EU citizens entering Britain via NI without a border?

This strawman of yours has been dismissed many times before, however as a courtesy I will just reiterate that the decision to 'monitor' eu citizens who may wander into the UK via Eire is a UK decision to take, not an eu one.

You eu folk love your 'monitoring' and 'controlling' of stuff. :D

Thank you for reading.


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