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NoelEvans 19th Aug 2019 06:53


Originally Posted by wiggy (Post 10548844)
It shouldn't need spelling out.

...

Please spell it out. No 'talk of' or surmising. Just facts, please?

(I still struggle to understand why someone would decide to make another country their new home but not wish to become a citizen of that country. Those who chose to make their new home here would not have any problem if they had become British citizens.)

Krystal n chips 19th Aug 2019 07:09

For a document that has ostensibly been around for a while, the return to the public domain seems to have created a bit of a furore ...............now why should this be if everything as we are solemnly assured, is going to plan ?

Anyway, Boris is off on a weekend break soon it seems.............so the EU will be treated to whatever his script writer in Washington tells him to say. Thankfully, as has been mentioned, our dynamic Home Sec is already ahead of the game with her devotion to the cause and clearly the Home office budget isn't going to be stretched with a few days junket to Singapore......wonder if they'll find time for tiffin with Dyson when they are over there.

"There'll be HGV's over.... the white cliffs of Dover ".....and the rest of Kent very soon.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...exit-shortages

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...hammer-cartoon

wiggy 19th Aug 2019 07:17


Originally Posted by NoelEvans (Post 10548849)
Please spell it out. No 'talk of' or surmising. Just facts, please?

(I still struggle to understand why someone would decide to make another country their new home but not wish to become a citizen of that country. Those who chose to make their new home here would not have any problem if they had become British citizens.)

OK."the facts" .You are e.g; a French/Belgian/Greek nurse working in the NHS and have been for years. As it stood until yesterday you had until Dec 2020 to register/achieve settled status...that would allow you to enter the UK and live here for amongst other things, work purposes.

More "facts" from those I know who have tried going through the settled status process. It involves amongst other things an on-line application..but only through certain platforms..that it itself has been causing hang ups ...eventually if you get a receipt back - an e-mail...it comes with a disclaimer that the e-mail itself is not prove of entitlement to enter UK for work purposes ...but it's OK because the deadline for achieving Settled Status is Dec 2020...(fact)

Now Ms Patel opens mouth - more "facts" - the whole plan changes.

FOM ends 31 Oct....Nurse is going on holiday back to Europe on Oct (BTW school half term). Problem he/she now has is when she gets back to LHR/LGW/STN etc in early Nov does she hold up her EU27 passport and lie about why she is coming to the Uk (coming to the UK on holiday, honest) or does she explain she is coming back for work and get into an argument with Border, after all she has an e-mail - which in itself is worthless?

The "fact" is Ms Patels idea will quietly be dropped...employers will make sure of that.

As for citizenship - well funnily enough one of the joys of the EU was that changing citizenship wasn't required..and also (funnily enough) despite what the newspapers in the UK seem to try to make people think and would have you believe it often isn't a simple, quick, easy process to change..it can take years, (that is a fact) also some European countries don't allow dual citizenship ( also a fact). Given current events and some attitudes on display in the UK I can't imagine many Europeans will be rushing to jettison their native nationality just to hold down a job working e.g; in the NHS in the UK...and yes, I'm sure that will please many ( not sure if that is a fact or not).

ATNotts 19th Aug 2019 07:39


Originally Posted by NoelEvans (Post 10548849)
Please spell it out. No 'talk of' or surmising. Just facts, please?

(I still struggle to understand why someone would decide to make another country their new home but not wish to become a citizen of that country. Those who chose to make their new home here would not have any problem if they had become British citizens.)

Hundreds of thousands of expats living abroad do exactly that; those British ghettos in Southern Spain, France and the like will be full of people who have moved out but not taken citizenship in their country of residence, and I suspect nearly as many who have made no efforts whatsoever to learn the language of their host country.

Sound familiar? Well it should, the same happens in the UK with some of out migrant population from EU countries. In the UK such behaviour is unacceptable, but of course when it's Brits aboard it's an affront to their freedom if anyone suggests they should take up citizenship and learn the lingo.

It's this kind of attitude that thoroughly pees me off about the UK, and UK attitude to foreigners migrating to UK, to earn a living and make a positive effect on the country.

wiggy 19th Aug 2019 08:00


Originally Posted by ATNotts (Post 10548884)
Hundreds of thousands of expats living abroad do exactly that; those British ghettos in Southern Spain, France and the like will be full of people who have moved out but not taken citizenship in their country of residence, and I suspect nearly as many who have made no efforts whatsoever to learn the language of their host country.

...and a few who fit that description voted Brexit and are only now bemoaing the possibility of dropping into third country status and not being able to import their Cheddar Cheese post Brexit..:ugh:

You are not getting with the programme here..the Brits are allowed to do that because they are British...cakism, exceptionalism, etc.

on the subject of changing citizenship or not ..

I wonder if those so keen on the idea of switching to show loyalty or some'at think posted workers should change citizenship every time they change base?

I also wonder how some of the team regard the likes of the dozens of Canadians, Americans, Australians, KiWis etc I know of who live in the UK and work for a big British company - do they need to show allegiance to the land of their residence by changing their citizenship/passport or do some really only see this as a "European" problem.

Frankly if people pay their taxes, don't break the law, and pull their weight at work I don't give a stuff what colour their passport is, in fact that subject rarely if ever crosses my mind.

Expatrick 19th Aug 2019 08:08


Originally Posted by NoelEvans (Post 10548849)
Please spell it out. No 'talk of' or surmising. Just facts, please?

(I still struggle to understand why someone would decide to make another country their new home but not wish to become a citizen of that country. Those who chose to make their new home here would not have any problem if they had become British citizens.)

One can't always just "become a citizen" of another Country. There are requirements to be met - in our case we have to be resident here for 8 years before we can apply.

ATNotts 19th Aug 2019 08:11


Originally Posted by wiggy (Post 10548902)
...and a few who fit that description voted Brexit and are only now bemoaing the possibility of dropping into third country status and not being able to import their Cheddar Cheese post Brexit..:ugh:

You are not getting with the programme here..the Brits are allowed to do that because they are British...cakism, exceptionalism, etc.

on the subject of changing citizenship or not ..

I wonder if those so keen on the idea of switching to show loyalty or some'at think posted workers should change citizenship every time they change base?

I also wonder how some of the team regard the likes of the dozens of Canadians, Americans, Australians, KiWis etc I know of who live in the UK and work for a big British company - do they need to show allegiance to the land of their residence by changing their citizenship/passport or do some really only see this as a "European" problem.

Frankly if people pay their taxes, don't break the law, and pull their weight at work I don't give a stuff what colour their passport is, in fact that subject rarely if ever crosses my mind.

I agree absolutely that one of the real benefits, that we will lose, is that of being able to live elsewhere without taking up citizenship of that country, and to be able to live and work freely in that country. That is potentially the biggest loss to the younger generation, which is why, I think, that in general they tend to be pro-EU. The important thing for me is that my passport states "European Union" and affords me those advantages. The new blue one will not. The colour immaterial, the wording everything.

ORAC 19th Aug 2019 08:16

Wiggy,

I am unaware of the Home Secretary stating anything resembling your “facts”. All I have seen is a few hearsay press reports of requests for changes on position papers since she took charge and the anonymous leakers giving their own ideas of what her views might me and the consequences.

Can you point me to any official Home Office press release or official statement by a Minister supporting your claims?

NutLoose 19th Aug 2019 09:22

A general election triggered by Brexit will provide a "once-in-a-generation chance" for a change of direction in politics, Jeremy Corbyn is set to say on Monday.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexi...ays/ar-AAFYYmZ

And who is he going to announce this "once-in-a-generation chance" too, senior industrial figures?, makers and shakers of the UK?...... Ohhh wait, surely not....

He will tell the Pen Green Children's Centre in Corby :oh::E:E:p

Fitter2 19th Aug 2019 09:44

KnC:

For a document that has ostensibly been around for a while, the return to the public domain seems to have created a bit of a furore ...............now why should this be if everything as we are solemnly assured, is going to plan ?
Because it occupied the front 7 pages of what used to be a reputable Sunday newspaper (vieing for reader interest yesterday with 'Prince Andrew assaulted me' and Lord Mountbatten was a paedophile')

Curiously, the 'news' is repeated in today's Times, with a section headed 'What the document says', and a curious phrase 'we are told the document is dated last week'. Is this a peculiar Schrodinger document, in that they both have the document, and also do not?

dr dre 19th Aug 2019 09:49


Originally Posted by NoelEvans (Post 10548841)
I am still waiting for someone to explain the EU's logic on the 'backstop'...

So, If the EU are so insistent on 'protection' for the Irish border, why are they happy for there not to be any further negotiation of their 'deal' to make it more palatable for the UK Parliament, which will result in a 'no deal' departure and no protection for the Irish border? Are the EU genuinely concerned about 'protection' for the Irish border, or is this just a bit of meaningless 'banner waving'?

In negotiations a party thatís 7 times the size (EU) of the other (UK) doesnít bend when the other is being ridiculously foolish. The WA isnít going to be altered because the UK parliament isnít functioning properly. Of course the WA isnít favourable to the UK, but again thatís what you get when you are negotiating with a party 7 times larger than you.

The backstop is to ensure free movement of goods and people across the currently open land border between the Ireland and NI. If Brexit is to be realistically achieved without a deal then a hard border must be in place in Ireland, which then is a violation of the Good Friday Agreement.


How will the Irish border not be protected if there is 'no deal'? Ireland and the UK (as well as the Channel Islands and the Isle of Mann) are in the Common Travel Area, so there is no restriction on people crossing the border. The British government have stated that they will not close the Irish border to goods crossing into Northern Island.
I thought the whole deal about Brexit was to ďtake back control of your bordersĒ and not allow freedom of movement and I assume goods as well. As it stands from that plan EU migrants in Ireland can freely drive north over the border into NI then enter mainland UK without any restriction. If youíre going to put checkpoints at Dover but then leave the backdoor on the Irish border wide open it defeats the whole purpose of Brexit entirely, and thatís why despite public comments the recently leaked papers show that a hard border in Ireland will be necessary to achieve the goals of Brexit.

Krystal n chips 19th Aug 2019 09:57


Originally Posted by Fitter2 (Post 10548978)
KnC:


Because it occupied the front 7 pages of what used to be a reputable Sunday newspaper (vieing for reader interest yesterday with 'Prince Andrew assaulted me' and Lord Mountbatten was a paedophile')

Curiously, the 'news' is repeated in today's Times, with a section headed 'What the document says', and a curious phrase 'we are told the document is dated last week'. Is this a peculiar Schrodinger document, in that they both have the document, and also do not?

Erm. the leaked document seems to have attracted considerably more attention than the ST readership....you seem to have missed the "clarification " as mentioned previously from three MP's for a start not to mention other MSM outlets.

This particular outlet is well known for its liberal left wing bias.............please have a read of the selection of articles, which, to my uneducated mind and thinking, are far more pertinent than the views of those who are quite happy to leave the EU simply to demonstrate that great world renowned British trait of petulance ....

https://www.ft.com/brexit

Noel, old boy. As you seem concerned about verifying the malicious intent of our Home Sec, perhaps the content of this report may help you....unless Ed Davey was simply a convenient space filler and soundbite printing opportunity of course.....why else would he feel inclined to comment if this report was just media fabrication ?

https://metro.co.uk/2019/08/18/uk-to...exit-10591575/

ORAC 19th Aug 2019 09:58


The backstop is to ensure free movement of goods and people across the currently open land border between the Ireland and NI. If Brexit is to be realistically achieved without a deal then a hard border must be in place in Ireland, which then is a violation of the Good Friday Agreement.
Both the British and Irish governments are stated emphatically that there will be no hard border.

If the Irish government bows to EU pressure and institutes such a border, it will be the Irish government which will be in breach of the GFA, an international treaty held by the United Nations.

SaulGoodman 19th Aug 2019 10:07


Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 10548988)
Both the British and Irish governments are stated emphatically that there will be no hard border.

So... Where are you going to putt the border that you so desperately want to take control over? I donít get it.


NoelEvans 19th Aug 2019 10:16


Originally Posted by wiggy (Post 10548871)
...

FOM ends 31 Oct....Nurse is going on holiday back to Europe on Oct (BTW school half term). Problem he/she now has is when she gets back to LHR/LGW/STN etc in early Nov does she hold up her EU27 passport and lie about why she is coming to the Uk (coming to the UK on holiday, honest) or does she explain she is coming back for work and get into an argument with Border, after all she has an e-mail - which in itself is worthless?

...

Please explain what argument she is likely to get into with the automated 'Border' gate? Having an EU passport she will be able to enter the country as easily through the automated immigration gates as any New Zealander, Australian, Singaporean, Japanese, American or Canadian. Where is the problem?

NoelEvans 19th Aug 2019 10:22


Originally Posted by Krystal n chips (Post 10548987)
...

This particular outlet is well known for its liberal left wing bias.............

(Dot diarrhea again!)

You are clearly demonstrating you total misunderstanding of the terms 'liberal' and 'left wing'. They are not in any way compatible. (Left wing policies have often been some of the most illiberal policies known in history.)

NoelEvans 19th Aug 2019 10:25


Originally Posted by SaulGoodman (Post 10548994)


So... Where are you going to putt the border ...


Ah, a golfer joining the fray!

ATNotts 19th Aug 2019 10:27


Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 10548988)
Both the British and Irish governments are stated emphatically that there will be no hard border.

If the Irish government bows to EU pressure and institutes such a border, it will be the Irish government which will be in breach of the GFA, an international treaty held by the United Nations.

The Common Travel Area will surely remain intact; but the issue is not so much free movement of people but free movement (tax and duty free) of goods. I'm not sure is some people are unable to grasp the difference, or if they are being deliberately mischievous. It's the trade issue that will effect people the most, if there were any checks on people that would be little more than a minor inconvenience, similar to, but hopefully less so, than the UK border at Eurotunnel in France.

NutLoose 19th Aug 2019 10:35

At the height of the troubles with Army and RUC checkpoints abound, they couldn't seal the border, what makes you think they can do it now?

SaulGoodman 19th Aug 2019 10:46


Originally Posted by NoelEvans (Post 10549004)
Ah, a golfer joining the fray!

Noel,
So I am able to bring goods into ROI from the continent. Then I bring them over into NI to bring them into the UK. I was under the impression that Brexit was about controlling your borders.

I am now actually in favour of a no deal Brexit. It has taken long enough. Your country is so divided right now the worst thing that can happen is to have Brexit delayed or even revoked. I, as a EU citizen, donít want another negotiation dragging on forever to be rejected in Westminster again.


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