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Effluent Man 29th Mar 2021 23:40


Originally Posted by hiflymk3 (Post 11018846)
Could that be because the FT knows a bit more about the economy, finance etc and warned of the consequences of leaving the EU?

No, Brexity Sun readers clearly know more. That's why they have done so well for themselves.

ORAC 30th Mar 2021 06:44

Depends if you consider trade to be the be all and end all when making your political decisions.

Based on recent history that would suggest that the best way to proceed would be to copy the Chinese rather than implement sanctions against them.

Effluent Man 30th Mar 2021 08:01


Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 11018970)
Depends if you consider trade to be the be all and end all when making your political decisions.

Based on recent history that would suggest that the best way to proceed would be to copy the Chinese rather than implement sanctions against them.

So we build massive factories that pollute the atmosphere and round up all the Muslims and put them to work in them?

Theholdingpoint 30th Mar 2021 08:15


Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 11018970)
Depends if you consider trade to be the be all and end all when making your political decisions.

Based on recent history that would suggest that the best way to proceed would be to copy the Chinese rather than implement sanctions against them.

So you left the EU to become China 2.0?

Alsacienne 30th Mar 2021 08:17


So we build massive factories that pollute the atmosphere and round up all the Muslims and put them to work in them?
Sadly that seems to be the case anyway ... thinking of the Lancashire cotton mills of my childhood, and the existing mass garment industries throughout the UK at present ... so I think that we've already been there ... and got the cotton mass-produced T shirt ...

I'll get my coat - probably also made in the same conditions.

occasional 30th Mar 2021 08:23


Originally Posted by ATNotts (Post 11018408)
That said if there is any truth in it then any expats that haven't gone through the correct processes deserve what comes to them.

That opinion supposes that a correct procedure exists. Just try getting health insurance when travel is "not recommended" during the Covid epidemic.

ORAC 30th Mar 2021 08:25

The reverse - the point I am making, yet again, is that the remain campaign focused its arguments on what would be best for business - and that’s not why people voted to leave.

The constan5 focus here on the effect of Brexit on business shows the same blind spot. Recent polls show support for having left is growing, not shrinking, even as the media focuses on business complaints.

Torquetalk 30th Mar 2021 08:34


Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 11019029)
The reverse - the point I am making, et again, is that the main campaign focused its arguments on what would be best for business - and that’s nit why people voted to leave.

The constan5 focus here on the effect of Brexit on business shows the sam3 blind spot. Recent polls show support for having left is growing, not shrinking, even as the media focuses on business complaints.

I think there is broad acceptance that Brexit was fundamentally about factors other than trade (although a generalized ill feeling about the effects of globalization were part and parcel of this). What galls is the lying audacity of the Brexiteer camp in dismissing properly founded objections as Project Fear. Trade creates wealth. Poorer is just that.

The many inconveniences, limitations and personal injustices that will play out are another matter again.

ATNotts 30th Mar 2021 09:06


Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 11019029)
The reverse - the point I am making, yet again, is that the remain campaign focused its arguments on what would be best for business - and that’s not why people voted to leave.

The constan5 focus here on the effect of Brexit on business shows the same blind spot. Recent polls show support for having left is growing, not shrinking, even as the media focuses on business complaints.

At the risk of rehearsing the reasons yet again, if you voted for Brexit, in many cases you didn't have the wealth to worry about losing, the sad thing is that that group were (by some but not all on the leave side) sold the line that by stopping or curbing EU immigration there was a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, which likely there is not. It's remarkably similar to the way in which would be illegal migrants to the UK are flogged street paved with gold in the UK which most realise, if they manage to survive the trip is simply false. Such a reasoning could be labelled plain racist, but curiously it was probably more an economic argument - that is the same argument made by the remain side - it's "the economy stupid".

Then there were also many, most retired and well healed for whom the economic impact would be small, possibly for some (JR-M just as one example) financially positive and apart from the immigration question, were / are hankering for a time of empire, colonies and conquering the world which sadly, some might say, are long gone.

Given the pigs ear that the EU has made of the Covid vaccine roll out, and the way that it has been handled in the UK media, were there not to be increased support for Brexit now I for one would be very surprised. The media isn't focussing in on business issues of Brexit, the popular press is still fighting the vaccine war with the EU and concentrating on the daily "death figures". It's right to say that they are getting mentioned, but for your average Daily Express or Daily Mail reader those business concerns don't get a look in presently.

hiflymk3 30th Mar 2021 09:39


Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 11019029)
The reverse - the point I am making, yet again, is that the remain campaign focused its arguments on what would be best for business - and that’s not why people voted to leave.

The constan5 focus here on the effect of Brexit on business shows the same blind spot. Recent polls show support for having left is growing, not shrinking, even as the media focuses on business complaints.

So people didn't vote on what is best for business and the economy. More fool them then because any fule knows it's the economy, both national and for the individual that keeps the wheels turning.

Talk about blind spots? I've yet to meet a brexiteer who has a reasonable argument as to why they voted leave. As for recent polls, ORAC can you provide us with "unbiased" polls to back that up.

Cornish Jack 30th Mar 2021 09:58

ORAC's constant claims, that she knows the reasons for people's voting choice in the Brexit nonsense, can only be based on the vagaries of opinion polls or surveys of some sort, or an over-riding sense of omnipotence. Those of us who operate in the non-media world note the unstructured comments of day-to-day conversations ... and the high level, almost preponderance, of xenophobia. It is a characterisation which sits uncomfortably with 'establishment' so it becomes 'more comfortable' to ascribe other motives.

ORAC 30th Mar 2021 10:14


Then there were also many, most retired and well healed for whom the economic impact would be small, possibly for some (JR-M just as one example) financially positive and apart from the immigration question, were / are hankering for a time of empire, colonies and conquering the world which sadly, some might say, are long gone.
Really? That old trope?

More interesting research below. He uses different terms, Settlers and Pioneers, but it circles back to the same conclusions concerning the Somewheres and the Anywhere’s back in 2016/2017...

https://tinyurl.com/59kvsvhy

It’s NOT the economy, stupid: Brexit as a story of personal values
https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...xit-inevitable

4468 30th Mar 2021 10:17

ORAC has it spot on.

A majority of people would support an internal market, of that I have little doubt.

However a majority of people did not support a political union. Particularly one run by fourth rate politicians!

For those “who operate in the non-media world”, that may have come as a bit of a shock? As must the concept of one person one vote? Certainly the EU don’t much like the idea!

Bob Viking 30th Mar 2021 10:19


Originally Posted by hiflymk3 (Post 11019099)
Talk about blind spots. I've yet to meet a brexiteer who has a reasonable argument as to why they voted leave.

That is brilliant. Talk about a blind spot, as you put it.

Lots of people on this very thread have given perfectly good reasons why they voted for Brexit. You have chosen either to ignore them or it just doesn’t seem like a good enough reason to you personally.

Whilst a dislike of foreigners didn’t form any part of my decision making matrix it may well have done for many people. That’s a perfectly good reason. For that person. I don’t have to agree with them but I don’t have to hate them for it either.

Your reasons for voting remain may be anathema to some. Does that make you wrong instead?

That’s the beauty of choice you see. We can all make our own minds up. We just need to accept it when people didn’t come to the same conclusion as ourselves. Otherwise we end up with a permanently repeating thread on jetblast about the rights and wrongs of Brexit. Oh, wait a minute...

BV

Effluent Man 30th Mar 2021 10:35


Originally Posted by 4468 (Post 11019121)
ORAC has it spot on.

A majority of people would support an internal market, of that I have little doubt.

However a majority of people did not support a political union. Particularly one run by fourth rate politicians!

For those “who operate in the non-media world”, that may have come as a bit of a shock? As must the concept of one person one vote? Certainly the EU don’t much like the idea!

We appear to have exchanged fourth rate politicians for fifth rate ones. The only one currently knocking it out of the park is Wee Nicola.

4468 30th Mar 2021 11:09


We appear to have exchanged fourth rate politicians for fifth rate ones. The only one currently knocking it out of the park is Wee Nicola.
How interesting that you should choose to laud Ms Sturgeon. The head of a party who’s sole existence is to leave a political and trade union with another country.

Now you seem to be getting it!

Her, and her party’s performance on almost all other issues leaving ‘a little to be desired’!

ATNotts 30th Mar 2021 11:35


Lots of people on this very thread have given perfectly good reasons why they voted for Brexit. You have chosen either to ignore them or it just doesn’t seem like a good enough reason to you personally.
Indeed, and many people on this thread (leavers and remainers) are probably a deal more worldly wise and in a better position to make valued judgments that rose above the often flawed rhetoric that was being spouted by one side or the other. Sadly, those of us who populate this thread are not representative of the population at large, being people primarily, but obviously not exclusively in socio economic groups A, and B, and generally of middle to late middle age.

People in less well off groups, often feeling forgotten or left behind, or just darn right neglected would have different reasons for voting in the way they did than many of those expressed on these pages.

Mr Mac 30th Mar 2021 11:46


Originally Posted by 4468 (Post 11019121)
ORAC has it spot on.

A majority of people would support an internal market, of that I have little doubt.

However a majority of people did not support a political union. Particularly one run by fourth rate politicians!

For those “who operate in the non-media world”, that may have come as a bit of a shock? As must the concept of one person one vote? Certainly the EU don’t much like the idea!

Orac
People like stability and employment and freedom to do what ever they like to do in their spare time and the we’re with all to do it. Woolly concepts of taking back control etc are just that woolly concepts. The job loses are real and will cause harm to people and there families.
As for what the people want as we are currently surveying a lot of lower class flats in the UK for a large city institution, and my observation is what many of them want is their drug of choice alcohol / Spice / Coke etc, and to be honest as one council rep said “a good fire with locked doors would help”.
Quite an eye opener when you find somebody living in a car on an estate in the midlands.
Mr Mac

hiflymk3 30th Mar 2021 11:59

BV, As any bean counter or businessman will tell you, the bottom line is the bottom line. It is all about the economy and I have yet be convinced otherwise. That is why I am a remainer, I'm still yet to be convinced by the the nebulous mantra of "taking back control". Do we really think that the UK can compete with the three major economic blocs of China, the US and the EU?

As for taking back control by giving it to f**k business Johnson, his fourth rate politicians and their cronies, I cannot help to think that the EU politicians are more concerned about the common wealth of the individual. But still, the Tories need a bogeyman to rally support so who better than the EU, immigration to blame for our perceived ills.

Yes, we all have our opinions but some are based on logic and not some emotional pie in the sky notion of sovereignty.


Cornish Jack 30th Mar 2021 16:41

I wait, with keen interest, to see how the latest tariff imposition by the US, because of our 'digital tax' imposition, will play out. Did I note a different approach towards the (powerful) EU,?
We have now taken back control, but are a bit short on economic muscle to deal with such bullying tactics. Not to worry, though - that nice Ms Truss, she of the declamatory cheese triumph (amongst other successes), will no doubt use her persuasive public persona to save the day.
HIGNFY recently featured one of her cringeworthy pronouncements but, I was so stunned that she could be allowed to continue these little pantomimes, that I have no idea what 'world beating' commodity was involved.


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