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pug 16th Mar 2021 13:22


Originally Posted by Crosswind Limits (Post 11009796)
As
Brexit will no doubt cause short to medium term issues, arguing otherwise is almost impossible. However the long term view in say about 10 years is less clear. For better or worse I have decided to wait and see.

Agree with much of that, however I do take issue with statements such as Ďshort to medium term issuesí and the like. Iím not sure of your personal situation, but Brexit directly impacted my prospects overnight! From an aviation perspective and leaving EASA (why???), where I was previously able to work in the many EU member states I now cannot easily do this. A company I worked closely with have gone bust, it was on the cards with Brexit but COVID sped this up. That is just one employer paying well above the average salary to 40 or so employees. These are highly skilled people, they will be wasted working as supermarket couriers! Unfortunately now there is a limited market in which they can use their skills, and they will be lost.

This is having an impact on an entire generation already, itís very little consolation telling people like me that it might be ok in ten years.. If there were any tangible benefits to leaving which would have levelled the playing field in these debates then it may well have been justifiable. But there arenít.

My hope is that if we can keep this debate burning away, it may help to shift policy towards a more open approach to Europe in the next five years. I donít necessarily imagine we will rejoin any time soon, but I would like to think that we will be once again active members of many of the Europe wide institutions once the current batch of popularist cabinet members have served their purpose of Ďgetting Brexit doneí.

alfaman 16th Mar 2021 13:23


Originally Posted by 4468 (Post 11009794)
We had that “debate and discussions” five years ago. There then followed the first ever referendum in this country regarding membership of a European (political) Union. Those who lost the argument then, didn’t much like the result. I get that, and you have my deepest sympathies. The more ad-hominem attacks you make, the more like powerless supercilious losers you look.

Draw whichever conclusions you wish. Who cares? We are where we are.

Most of us have now moved on. There are new challenges ahead. Time to stop bellyaching about choices that have already been made.

Who says "most have moved on" - you've no evidence of that. There's lots of evidence every day that shows what a complete shambles it actually is, yet you're happy to accept that as a price worth paying, but you won't admit to what it is you wanted to buy. It's entirely reasonable to ask those of you that supported Brexit to explain themselves, & explain how they're going to fix the multitude of problems it's created - the fact you can't is quite telling.
Incidentally, calling you to account for your actions is not an "ad hominem attack" - calling you an idiot would be, but I didn't do that.

4468 16th Mar 2021 13:23

Pug

However, it was in direct response to the earlier suggestion that the Americans did little more than lend a bit of money to the British effort before they offered token support after 1942..
Au contraire.

The genesis of the recent introduction of WW2 into this thread came from a remainer. ATNotts in 10116:


A lot of Brexiteers are going to be very disappointed when they wake up to the USA not riding to the UK's aid in the way they did in the two world wars of the 20th century.
I will always be happy to refute that.

As I clearly stated in 10130:


I’m not harking back to some ‘vainglorious past’ but nor am I willing to be lectured on how the US ‘rode to the rescue’ of the UK in WW2.
There was no threat of invasion of the UK by the time Germany declared war on the US four days after Pearl Harbour. Together triggering the US’ first entry into combat operations in the summer of 1942.

Far more accurate would have been the suggestion that the US alongside the UK the Russians and other allies, rode to the rescue of Europe. I’m sure we can all agree on that?

The dates don’t lie.

Back to bashing those ‘thick’ brexiteers? 🙄

Mr Mac 16th Mar 2021 13:27

Crosswind Limits
A well reasoned comment, and I would agree with much of it. I would point out that other areas within the EU have also seen a decline in the old industries in for example the Ruhr, where coal has disappeared, and steel is no longer as important, and this can also be observed in parts of France and Belgium. The difference seems to be how the populations in these places have handled the changes, and indeed found and developed alternative industries and jobs in comparison with some of the areas suffering the same issues in the UK. Perhaps because in mainland Europe, due to land barriers rather than sea, a mentality of "change", be it due to suddenly finding yourself annexed or conquered by another country is more accepted historically maybe. It maybe in the psyche of the nations involved but these do change in time as you can observe elsewhere, we shall see. However I for one will always be a pro European, and hope that in my lifetime we will return to the EU if they will have us :rolleyes:
Cheers
Mr Mac

Krystal n chips 16th Mar 2021 13:31


Originally Posted by 4468 (Post 11009807)
Pug


Au contraire.

The genesis of the introduction of WW2 into this thread came from a remainder. ATNotts in 10116:



I will always be happy to refute that. There was no threat of invasion of the UK by the time Germany declared war on the US. Far more accurate would have been the suggestion that the US alongside the UK the Russians and other allies, rode to the rescue of Europe. Iím sure we can all agree on that?

The dates donít lie.

How about, one thing we, well most us, can agree on is the constant, unwarranted and puerile references and analogies relating to the war and Germany.....today's date is 16 /3 /2021

4468 16th Mar 2021 13:43


Originally Posted by Krystal n chips (Post 11009814)
How about, one thing we, well most us, can agree on is the constant, unwarranted and puerile references and analogies relating to the war and Germany.....today's date is 16 /3 /2021

Delighted to accede. Do be sure to point out same to those that seek to introduce the subject in the first place!

WB627 16th Mar 2021 13:55


Originally Posted by Crosswind Limits (Post 11009796)
In the late 1940s we wasted the lionís share of the Marshall Aid on vanity projects associated with the old Empire whilst France and Germany spent their shares on infrastructure and modernisation. We persisted with steam then diesel whilst others saw the future in electrification. We are still paying for this monster mistake. Very short sighted indeed which has become a bit of a british trait along with complacency!

We also squandered our earnings from North Sea Oil unlike Norway



Sallyann1234 16th Mar 2021 13:57


Originally Posted by 4468

Far more accurate would have been the suggestion that the US alongside the UK the Russians and other allies, rode to the rescue of Europe. Iím sure we can all agree on that?

Thst was the result, although the motives were each rather different.
Russia, for example seized control of the part of Europe it 'rescued'.

Crosswind Limits 16th Mar 2021 14:45


Originally Posted by Mr Mac (Post 11009811)
Crosswind Limits
A well reasoned comment, and I would agree with much of it. I would point out that other areas within the EU have also seen a decline in the old industries in for example the Ruhr, where coal has disappeared, and steel is no longer as important, and this can also be observed in parts of France and Belgium. The difference seems to be how the populations in these places have handled the changes, and indeed found and developed alternative industries and jobs in comparison with some of the areas suffering the same issues in the UK. Perhaps because in mainland Europe, due to land barriers rather than sea, a mentality of "change", be it due to suddenly finding yourself annexed or conquered by another country is more accepted historically maybe. It maybe in the psyche of the nations involved but these do change in time as you can observe elsewhere, we shall see. However I for one will always be a pro European, and hope that in my lifetime we will return to the EU if they will have us :rolleyes:
Cheers
Mr Mac

Yes this is true. An island mentality coupled with an Empire/Commonwealth in many cases thousands of miles away set the scene for our relationship with Europe. We were often at war with various countries in Europe throughout history and this has somehow marked our psyche for generations. Being on the victorious side in WW2 also reinforced a no change needed attitude as well as an overinflated sense of self worth. We will have to reinvent ourselves and accept where the world is if we are to get out of this hole, if it is a hole after all!

ATNotts 16th Mar 2021 14:58


Originally Posted by Crosswind Limits (Post 11009884)
Yes this is true. An island mentality coupled with an Empire/Commonwealth in many cases thousands of miles away set the scene for our relationship with Europe. We were often at war with various countries in Europe throughout history and this has somehow marked our psyche for generations. Being on the victorious side in WW2 also reinforced a no change needed attitude as well as an overinflated sense of self worth. We will have to reinvent ourselves and accept where the world is if we are to get out of this hole, if it is a hole after all!

I believe it may be true to say that in terms of its own opinion on its place in the world, the UK's attitude to Europe would have been very much different had the mainland been successfully invaded at some stage over the last century. As it is the UK suffers from a much inflated ego and if there is to be a benefit from Brexit it could be that the country and population begins to understand that we are a large, and quite important island off the coast of Europe, not a world power - that was in the 19th not the 21st century.

Sadly judging from the UK government announcement today regarding the UK and in particular nuclear weapons stocks, they at least have yet to understand the country is no longer an imperial power!

Exrigger 16th Mar 2021 16:24

Might be of interest for those who might like to debate the subject, or just pull it apart as is their wont:

https://worldpopulationreview.com/co...rful-countries


Widger 16th Mar 2021 16:57

Some small positive news post EU Exit here buried away in the news.
Ford to build engines in Dagenham

So on the back of a trade deal in 2020 between the UK and Turkey, engines will be manufactured in a non EU country, exported to another non EU country, with low labour costs for Vans to be imported into the EU as part of a Customs Union.

Yes yes..........., before you start it pales into insignificance with the other losses but at least some silver lining after the loss of jobs at Southampton. Business will go where the costs are lowest.

Widger 16th Mar 2021 17:29


I believe it may be true to say that in terms of its own opinion on its place in the world, the UK's attitude to Europe would have been very much different had the mainland been successfully invaded at some stage over the last century. As it is the UK suffers from a much inflated ego and if there is to be a benefit from Brexit it could be that the country and population begins to understand that we are a large, and quite important island off the coast of Europe, not a world power - that was in the 19th not the 21st century.

Sadly judging from the UK government announcement today regarding the UK and in particular nuclear weapons stocks, they at least have yet to understand the country is no longer an imperial power!
Your negativity saddens me. Whilst I do not wish to start another WEBF type of thread, we are still very much a World Power. We are a significant partner in NATO, on the UN Security Council, Member of the G8, A part of a commonwealth of 54 nations of 2.5bn people, where we take a strong leadership role, responsible for the protection and support of 19 Overseas Territories and Crown Dependencies (who incidentally are mostly in the top 10 of Covid Vaccinating States per 100 population), a leading player in many international organisations including the WTO, WHO, ICAO, and most of those with a UN in front of them such as UNESCO etc, a centre of world excellence in education and STEM subjects, a centre for innovation and research, a global centre for automotive research and development and the home to many Formula 1 teams, a global leader in the move towards green energy such as Solar and Wind generation, a beacon in the world for human rights, equality and the rule of law (yes we have shamed ourselves in many events but we are still at the forefront) have many defence treaties around the world, including the oldest treaty in the world with Portugal and a very important one with our allies in the Far East, Malaysia, Singapore, New Zealand and Australia, which we have arguable neglected recently with our North Atlantic focus. I could go on. We have much to be proud of and we are on the whole, a force for good in the world with many tools at our disposal including soft and hard power.

Speak softly and carry a big stick is still relevant. On our own that might not say much but, if all our allies carry a big stick as well......

ATNotts 16th Mar 2021 18:09


Originally Posted by Widger (Post 11010003)
Your negativity saddens me. Whilst I do not wish to start another WEBF type of thread, we are still very much a World Power. We are a significant partner in NATO, on the UN Security Council, Member of the G8, A part of a commonwealth of 54 nations of 2.5bn people, where we take a strong leadership role, responsible for the protection and support of 19 Overseas Territories and Crown Dependencies (who incidentally are mostly in the top 10 of Covid Vaccinating States per 100 population), a leading player in many international organisations including the WTO, WHO, ICAO, and most of those with a UN in front of them such as UNESCO etc, a centre of world excellence in education and STEM subjects, a centre for innovation and research, a global centre for automotive research and development and the home to many Formula 1 teams, a global leader in the move towards green energy such as Solar and Wind generation, a beacon in the world for human rights, equality and the rule of law (yes we have shamed ourselves in many events but we are still at the forefront) have many defence treaties around the world, including the oldest treaty in the world with Portugal and a very important one with our allies in the Far East, Malaysia, Singapore, New Zealand and Australia, which we have arguable neglected recently with our North Atlantic focus. I could go on. We have much to be proud of and we are on the whole, a force for good in the world with many tools at our disposal including soft and hard power.

Speak softly and carry a big stick is still relevant. On our own that might not say much but, if all our allies carry a big stick as well......

Can't argue with the facts as you have laid them out, however really, "what has the Commonwealth ever done for us?". It gives former colonies the annual opportunity to give the former imperial power a good kicking at the annual conference, and is about to cost the City of Birmingham a fortune holding the Commonwealth Games which really, when we take off our UK "rose tinted spectacles" off is an irrelevance in the world sporting calendar, indeed many athletes choose not to got to the CG, preferring to concentrate instead on more prestigious global events.

Despite all the statistics the most important relationship the UK has (had) it that with Europe, from both a trade and geopolitical perspective. The "special relationship" counts for little, since the USA is only really committed to it when it suits them. The UK is an important trading nation yet it has chosen to make trade between it and its most important trading partner significantly more complicated, and left itself with far fewer bargaining chips when it comes to negotiating trade deals with other large trading nations.

The UK doesn't need a global reach from a hard power perspective, it is good at "soft power" though neither does the UK any good whatsoever when in dispute with the "big boys - China and Russia, not to mention the USA. A little less puffing up of the national chest, and a little more concentration on the stuff that really matters to your average Brit. might make the UK a better place in which to live and work. I just feel that the present generation of politicians spends too much time fighting old battles, and yearning for a time that is long gone, that is, if that wonderful time ever really existed.

Ford Engines

Excellent news for Ford workers in Dagenham, a small ray of sunshine for Brexit Britain. We need a heck of a lot more to make up for what we've chucked on the trade scrapheap.

Widger 16th Mar 2021 18:26

I admire your idealism. I will answer from my perspective of visiting many countries of the world with 25 years of putting my own life on the line, thankfully without harm, where it is clear that many across the world do not share your post 1950s Western European approach. Be it the Arab Nations wanting our support against the very real threat of a neighbour, small Asian countries faced with a very large country with expanding aspirations for land-grabbing or indeed a small fellow NATO country still very worried that their neighbour is going to bring them back under its influence and who are very grateful for UK forces being stationed there. Or indeed a previous colony of the UK that was promised to be part of a One Nation, Two System approach who see their liberty being being removed. It is very easy to see few issues sat here in our comfortable Western European lounges, but many of our friends around the world do not feel so safe and are very happy for the UK to have such global ambition. Don't forget, that we have also been subject to state sponsored nerve agent attack. 'Watchya gonna do about it then little boy?' The world is more dangerous now that it has been since 1989.

Mr Mac 16th Mar 2021 18:32

Widger
I think ATNotts has covered most of the points I was going to raise, and my views on the Commonwealth echo his. As for Soft and Hard power I would settle for a little less hard power which we struggle to afford and man, and perhaps go for more soft power, or indeed concentrate more on bringing the standards back up in the UK of various services public and private which have suffered since probably the end of WW2, if not before. Also change the narrative so that we have a little less Ra Ra and more can do attitude - and then actually do it rather than another sound bite. Funnily English sales people are very good in my experience in selling a product but delv :sad:

Cheers
Mr Mac

Ancient Observer 16th Mar 2021 18:40

Mr Mac.
Good points, well made . Shame there is not a "like " button.

Widger 16th Mar 2021 19:42

So I would suggest maybe your focus should therefore be elsewhere. The Defence budget is largely good value. Maybe your ire should be directed at the Test and Trace system and all those companies creaming off taxpayers money during Covid and the real scandal that is PFI, the fault of parties of both colours, which reduces the budgets of many NHS Trust by about 20%

Defence, like immigrants are an easy target whereas the real blame lies elsewhere.

OilCan 17th Mar 2021 13:38


Originally Posted by 4468 (Post 11009619)
Now. Shall we return to Brexit,

Ok, sounds fine. :ok:

So what is it you're most looking forward to since you won?

old,not bold 17th Mar 2021 13:52

Brexit bites - again;

I sold my business on Dec 31st due to all the problems to be seen coming down the track as a consequence of the collective stupidity and incompetence of BoJo and his team. The buyer was a keen Brexiteer who thought that sunny uplands were ahead; was is the keyword there, he isn't any longer.

At my new and retired level my problems are very tiny, but they do represent a microcosm of the consequences not so much of Brexit, but of the appalling deal that BoJo pushed through regardless of the consequences. Before Christmas 2020, I sent a box of Christmas gifts to my (now) Polish son and grand-children. Nice big box, packed with sweets and goodies, and presents for everyone, as a substitute for the usual Christmas visit. Cost of shipping from UK and delivery in Warsaw £30, no problems, box delivered 72 hours after collection.

Now we want to repeat that at Easter. Oh boy; little did we know. Sweets banned, gift values (total) limited to £15, got to submit itemised packing lists with (for every item) the international product code, value, and place of manufacture.

It's all so unnecessary. I'm frustrated and angry over one little gift box; I can't even imagine what it must be like for someone whose business depends on overcoming the mess created by BoJo and his gang of idiots. And please don't blame the EU; they didn't ask the UK to flounce out. Boris failed spectacularly to deliver any of the wild promises he made about trading relations with the EU. He knows nothing about trade or business, he's a lightweight dilettante playing a game of being Prime Minister.


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