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4468 15th Mar 2021 22:21


I think my question is perfectly reasonable in order for people like me to understand why some people voted the way they did. I don't doubt that many voted for perfectly genuine reasons but in remains to be seen whether they considered the full consequences andtake responsibility for the outcome.

What's wrong with that?
Coming to an understanding of what happened is something only you can control. You can only come to that understanding by accepting there were and are perfectly valid points of view diametrically opposed to yours. What on earth makes you think you will achieve either acceptance or understanding by making ad hominem attacks on PPrune?? Presumably ‘justified’ because you ‘know’ you got it right and anyone who doesn’t/didn’t agree is thick?

The more you do that, the more people simply won’t give a monkey’s what you ‘understand’.

Understand it or don’t understand it. That’s nobody else’s responsibility.

Just revel in your powerless superciliousness.

Cornish Jack 15th Mar 2021 22:37

Given that this is just one of some 10 thousand plus posts on one forum, and there will be many others arguing similarly, to suggest that 'it's all over, so just accept it', is a somewhat specious argument. It's worth bearing in mind that the Blessed Hilda, when asked what she would do if the vote went against her. said "Ignore it!" The Brexiteers, in one form or another, were bleating on from the first days of membership in the 70s, and never let up. Liquid flavouring for the male poultry as well as the female ???

OilCan 15th Mar 2021 23:18


Originally Posted by 4468 (Post 11009417)
Coming to an understanding of what happened is something only you can control. You can only come to that understanding by accepting there were and are perfectly valid points of view diametrically opposed to yours.

...so what are they. It's a simple question?:confused:

4468 15th Mar 2021 23:42


Originally Posted by OilCan (Post 11009446)
...so what are they. It's a simple question?:confused:

You’ve had 5 years to figure it out. You just don’t agree with the result. That’s not a problem for me.

OilCan 15th Mar 2021 23:59


Originally Posted by 4468 (Post 11009457)
You’ve had 5 years to figure it out. You just don’t agree with the result. That’s not a problem for me.

You might be right, but I'm simply looking to the likes of you to tell me why I was wrong?

ps. Why did the Americans 'assist' us in Europe after the Japanese bombed them in Peal Harbour? Did you really think the Japanese 'facists' came from Europe? :rolleyes:

WB627 16th Mar 2021 00:06


I guess this is the full half hour :}


TURIN 16th Mar 2021 00:25


Originally Posted by rogerg (Post 11009354)
4468, thank you for saving me from bashing my head on a brick wall again.

Oh go on, you know you like it. Try running it at too.

M.Mouse 16th Mar 2021 00:38


The Brexiteers, in one form or another, were bleating on from the first days of membership in the 70s, and never let up.
What utter nonsense.

4468 16th Mar 2021 00:44


ps. Why did the Americans 'assist' us in Europe after the Japanese bombed them in Peal Harbour? Did you really think the Japanese 'facists' came from Europe? https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/ima...n_rolleyes.gif
Well.... I’m wondering whether Germany and Italy declaring war on the US four days after Pearl Harbour may have had something to do with it?? 🤔😂

Just a hunch you understand?

11th December 1941.

Is it significant to you? Or to the Brexit argument? 🙄

(Just for context, the Battle of Britain peaked on 15th Sept 1940. The Blitz of major UK cities ran until May 1941.)

OilCan 16th Mar 2021 02:25


Originally Posted by 4468 (Post 11009477)
Well.... I’m wondering whether Germany and Italy declaring war on the US four days after Pearl Harbour may have had something to do with it?? 🤔😂
......
Is it significant to you? Or to the Brexit argument? 🙄

(Just for context, the Battle of Britain peaked on 15th Sept 1940. The Blitz of major UK cities ran until May 1941.)

Other than some German 'U' boat activity on the US eastern seaboard in '43 and some ambitious plans to develop a long range bomber, I don't think the US was too concerned about a German or Italian invasion.

But you're right, it's not significant to BREXIT other than to highlight a rather poor appreciation of historic international affairs and a very narrow view of the modern day complications associated with political and trade relations. I've accepted as a 'remainer' that we lost, but I'm still trying to find some cogent sensible arguments as to why and what are the acceptable consequences? More significantly perhaps, I wait with interest to see where the finger of blame points if/when it all goes wrong.

ps. after nearly 40 years in the Royal Air Force, no need to lecture me on the Battle of Britain. :8

pug 16th Mar 2021 08:04


Originally Posted by OilCan (Post 11009506)
Other than some German 'U' boat activity on the US eastern seaboard in '43 and some ambitious plans to develop a long range bomber, I don't think the US was too concerned about a German or Italian invasion.

But you're right, it's not significant to BREXIT other than to highlight a rather poor appreciation of historic international affairs and a very narrow view of the modern day complications associated with political and trade relations. I've accepted as a 'remainer' that we lost, but I'm still trying to find some cogent sensible arguments as to why and what are the acceptable consequences? More significantly perhaps, I wait with interest to see where the finger of blame points if/when it all goes wrong.

ps. after nearly 40 years in the Royal Air Force, no need to lecture me on the Battle of Britain. :8

Agreed OilCan, just to add that as a graduate in History&Politics, the semantics of dates often covers up the lack of depth of knowledge in terms of why things happened, when they happened is often a secondary concern.

In short; whilst the U.K. was on the victors side during WW2, it was somewhat of a Pyrrhic victory for our part. Radar technology used strategically, along with the support of many other Empire and allied crews alongside the RAF, allowed Britain to hold off Luftwaffe air attacks sufficiently to maintain air supremacy on the Western Front. Goring simply didn’t believe the RAF was strong enough to do so. However, Geography played significant part, and Operation Sealion was delayed with focus on the Eastern Front. Skip forward a couple of years and Britain became an ideal strategic post for the US when they joined. Although Britain may have been able to hold off attacks for a period, they certainly wouldn’t have been able to build up a sufficient invading force alone. So American involvement was most certainly the most important turning point in the War.

The reason why it was a Pyrrhic victory for Britain? The empire was dismantled in the decades following, Britain was crippled with war debt. Despite a short lived economic boom due to technological advancement that war brings (modern households), British influence reduced and America had us over a barrel. People who fought in the war were largely fed up of being told what to do by ‘older’ people and this led to various social revolutions. People also wanted greater workers rights and industry failed to catch up.

This very simplistic summary is what lead the U.K. to joining the EEC after becoming the ‘Sick Man of Europe’. Our modern economy has been built on being a member of the EEC (EU), the leave campaign conveniently skipped over this in favour of capturing some 1945 era VE Day zeitgeist. As is evident on here, some leave voters can’t articulate their reason for voting that way, they just did. Others are regretting their decision to do so.

4468 16th Mar 2021 08:19


But you're right, it's not significant to BREXIT other than to highlight a rather poor appreciation of historic international affairs
That’s very magnanimous of you to admit your failings.


Other than some German 'U' boat activity on the US eastern seaboard in '43 and some ambitious plans to develop a long range bomber, I don't think the US was too concerned about a German or Italian invasion.
By the end of 1941 neither was the UK. (Unless you’ve been watching too much Dad’s Army!)

Now. Shall we return to Brexit, and the ad hominem attacks from the powerless supercilious on those who voted for it?

Krystal n chips 16th Mar 2021 08:37

For those lamenting the lack of good news, at last, your laments can be assuaged !......The Empire and Colonial rule is back !.....well not quite, sorry to raise your hopes, and blood pressure, here, but, it seems Boris, having successfully alienated the UK from a considerably more convenient trading bloc, otherwise known as the EU, has set his sights on regaining the ( in ) Glorious Empire.

And a special mention for Raab here who seems to be confused as to the term "minimal " when referring to the exact opposite, notably the expansion of nuclear weapons

Post-Brexit UK to reshape its foreign policy - BBC News

wowzz 16th Mar 2021 09:05

"So American involvement was most certainly the most important turning point in the War"
I would say that Hitler's decision to invade Russia was the turning point.
As with any drawn out conflict, it is difficult to select any single definitive moment.

Cornish Jack 16th Mar 2021 10:23

M Mouse - your #10182 is always a possibility, but some time devoted to reading 70s/80s political diaries and biographies could well disabuse you of that thought - Benn and Crossman, for a start.

Mr Mac 16th Mar 2021 10:33

KnC
Wow UK are going back East ! Do you think we could get the old bases back, you know Singapore , Gan (if the Maldives Govt agree) , maybe not Aden for obvious reasons. All those Frigates and subs which would be required that we do not have, and can not afford. Yet more hot air and rhetoric and waving of the bunting from Boris about those good old days.

As for the spat about WW2 above,I do not believe the UK would have won on its own, and it was the US and USSR intervention and support which changed the balance.The UK prior to that was just holding its own at best. As for the Battle of Britain I was told by an ex RAF Staff Officer (who had done some significant research while serving) that if, and this is a big if, the ME109 had and extra circa 100 miles of range (Drop tanks ? ) or an extra 10 min duration when over the UK, we could well have lost the Battle of Britain. I am not sure that is correct, as I am not an expert on the RAF in WW2 (or indeed at anytime) just an interested amateur, but the precept does seem correct given the allies issues supporting raids over Europe later in that war.
Cheers
Mr Mac

alfaman 16th Mar 2021 10:45


Originally Posted by 4468 (Post 11009393)
Why should anybody have to answer your, or anyone’s questions on how they voted in a referendum nearly 5 years ago now?

Not just why in fact, but also what’s the point?

Because that's how debate & discussions work - you & your fellow Brexiters who refuse to answer, leave the rest of us to draw our own conclusions - to wit, you didn't have a clue what you wanted, which is why you have no idea whether you've got it or not., & no idea what you've cost the country & it's citizens. Incidentally, it's not over: democracy doesn't work like that, the clamour to rejoin will always be there. If you're so sure about why we should have left, you'll need to have your arguments lined up as to why we shouldn't rejoin.

pug 16th Mar 2021 10:54


Originally Posted by wowzz (Post 11009653)
"So American involvement was most certainly the most important turning point in the War"
I would say that Hitler's decision to invade Russia was the turning point.
As with any drawn out conflict, it is difficult to select any single definitive moment.

Quite right, and I should perhaps have rephrased as such. A double whammy to the German war machine. However, it was in direct response to the earlier suggestion that the Americans did little more than lend a bit of money to the British effort before they offered token support after 1942..

I fully believe the miss telling of WW2 has swayed some factions of the leave voters. It’s a shame it keeps getting brought up even if not directly. The leave campaign was tainted with 1940’s nostalgia which has conveniently left out the 70 odd years of British history after 1945. It’s why I believe no solid evidence of the benefits of Brexit is forthcoming once people are probed on forums such as this and elsewhere, as it was all based on nothing more than a feeling.


4468 16th Mar 2021 12:07


Because that's how debate & discussions work - you & your fellow Brexiters who refuse to answer, leave the rest of us to draw our own conclusions - to wit, you didn't have a clue what you wanted, which is why you have no idea whether you've got it or not., & no idea what you've cost the country & it's citizens. Incidentally, it's not over: democracy doesn't work like that, the clamour to rejoin will always be there. If you're so sure about why we should have left, you'll need to have your arguments lined up as to why we shouldn't rejoin.
We had that “debate and discussions” five years ago. There then followed the first ever referendum in this country regarding membership of a European (political) Union. Those who lost the argument then, didn’t much like the result. I get that, and you have my deepest sympathies. The more ad-hominem attacks you make, the more like powerless supercilious losers you look.

Draw whichever conclusions you wish. Who cares? We are where we are.

Most of us have now moved on. There are new challenges ahead. Time to stop bellyaching about choices that have already been made.

Crosswind Limits 16th Mar 2021 12:10

I am someone who voted to remain and spent the first 2 years post vote arguing with colleagues daily, however as of late 2018 I’ve let it go! Like most things in life the issues and solutions lie in the grey bits, not the black or white. I would probably still vote to remain but only just. Setting aside the English exceptionalism, I have some sympathy for many leave voters and their cause. I personally think the terminal decline of Pax Britannica after WW1 and certainly after WW2, made us very reluctant Europeans. The death of our industries and lack of investment and regeneration has just added to us losing our way ever since. There is real palpable resentment and bitterness in many former Industrial areas. These once proud towns are mostly dead or dying now. These regional voters blame the establishment which I sympathise and also foreigners which I don’t so much.

In the late 1940s we wasted the lion’s share of the Marshall Aid on vanity projects associated with the old Empire whilst France and Germany spent their shares on infrastructure and modernisation. We persisted with steam then diesel whilst others saw the future in electrification. We are still paying for this monster mistake. Very short sighted indeed which has become a bit of a british trait along with complacency!

There’s so much talent in the UK but until we find some kind of peace with ourselves rejoining would be pointless and even more divisive. I think it was De Gaulle who vetoed our entry into the Common Market twice in the 1960s because of our ‘attitude’ towards other European countries. Since joining in 1973 we have been blaming the EU almost from the beginning so in many respects De Gaulle was right. I just think many of our fellow Brits are deep down just not happy with how we have turned out. This explains why many keep looking back in nostalgia because the future looks a little frightening.

Brexit will no doubt cause short to medium term issues, arguing otherwise is almost impossible. However the long term view in say about 10 years is less clear. For better or worse I have decided to wait and see.

Lastly just to weigh into the debate on WW2. Britain alone never stood a chance of winning, American involvement was vitally important but I think Russia more so. They bled white and in the process bled Germany too making the Western Front vulnerable to breach with American support etc.


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