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ATNotts 8th Mar 2021 14:37


Originally Posted by Krystal n chips (Post 11004545)
I would just like to say Brexit is now having a direct impact on me. My supplies of VW Bockwurst and Schnitzels are currently unavailable.

Thankfully, the various garnishes, and certainly mayo, still are !

I was encouraged to see that the recent "Alpenfest" promotion at Lidl had all the regular favourites including schnitzels, currywurst, spaetzle, and bockwurst, as well as some really good Schwarzwalder ice cream, made with more than a taste of kirchwasser (or some very passable food flavouring!!). Freezer and cupboards appropriately restocked!

BizJetJock 8th Mar 2021 14:51


We (germans) are not trying to recreate it, we are trying to work together closely with our neighbours. You (Brexiteers) can't get over the fact that you have to discuss things with your neighbour. It's called 'working together'.
I think this sums up the the issue that remain supporters have. They don't understand that working together with your neighbours does not necessarily mean marrying them!
As has been stated many times, the UK signed up to a trading partnership. If the other members of that partnership wish to turn it into something different, that's up to them. But they can't object if the UK wants to do something different.
At the moment it is the EU that appears to be acting in a very un-neighbourly fashion on several topcs. Even my wife who started as a committed remain supporter now views the EU behaviour as a sign that we may be better off outside.
But frankly I come on this forum and see all the posts worthy of 5 year olds in the playground and come away thinking that there is no hope of any sensible reasoning with the remainers on here.

However, as an eternal optimist I put forward a few thoughts that don't seem to have occurred to many:
Perhaps more people of older years voted leave as with age comes perspective - I won't say wisdom - and they were able to answer the question asked, which was "should the UK leave the EU?" To listen to many on here it would appear the question was "Will my personal lifestyle over the next few years be affected if the UK leaves the EU?"
Education does not equate to intelligence. Particularly since in the older demographics there was far less of the population went to university, so the fact that many leave voters don't have degrees is a classic case of correlation not being causation.
Finally, many on here seem to be of the view that if someone votes for something that may result in a reduction of their net income they must by definintion be stupid. If that is true then every single Labour voter on more than the minimum wage is stupid. Or is it a case of only comfortable middle class people are entitled to principles?

Mr Mac 8th Mar 2021 14:52


Originally Posted by ATNotts (Post 11004553)
I was encouraged to see that the recent "Alpenfest" promotion at Lidl had all the regular favourites including schnitzels, currywurst, spaetzle, and bockwurst, as well as some really good Schwarzwalder ice cream, made with more than a taste of kirchwasser (or some very passable food flavouring!!). Freezer and cupboards appropriately restocked!

ATNotts
My local farm shop has tried his hand at making Bratwurst , so as offered 2 free samples I will be trying with some cold Pork tonight. The usually are quite good with Pork products so will see. Good to hear about Lidl products. Just need to make some Kartoffell :)
Cheers
Mr Mac

pug 8th Mar 2021 15:08


Originally Posted by BizJetJock (Post 11004562)
I think this sums up the the issue that remain supporters have. They don't understand that working together with your neighbours does not necessarily mean marrying them!
As has been stated many times, the UK signed up to a trading partnership. If the other members of that partnership wish to turn it into something different, that's up to them. But they can't object if the UK wants to do something different.
At the moment it is the EU that appears to be acting in a very un-neighbourly fashion on several topcs. Even my wife who started as a committed remain supporter now views the EU behaviour as a sign that we may be better off outside.
But frankly I come on this forum and see all the posts worthy of 5 year olds in the playground and come away thinking that there is no hope of any sensible reasoning with the remainers on here.

However, as an eternal optimist I put forward a few thoughts that don't seem to have occurred to many:
Perhaps more people of older years voted leave as with age comes perspective - I won't say wisdom - and they were able to answer the question asked, which was "should the UK leave the EU?" To listen to many on here it would appear the question was "Will my personal lifestyle over the next few years be affected if the UK leaves the EU?"
Education does not equate to intelligence. Particularly since in the older demographics there was far less of the population went to university, so the fact that many leave voters don't have degrees is a classic case of correlation not being causation.
Finally, many on here seem to be of the view that if someone votes for something that may result in a reduction of their net income they must by definintion be stupid. If that is true then every single Labour voter on more than the minimum wage is stupid. Or is it a case of only comfortable middle class people are entitled to principles?

You say that the U.K. joined a ‘trade partnership’, it’s pretty clear that it was always going to develop in order to implement standardisation across all member states. Without this it simply wouldn’t function. The British economy has been modernised under this apparatus.

Any further trading agreements will require this too, so it puts the sovereignty argument to bed.

Re. the older generation. I assume you’re referring to the retired generation? It’s unlikely to affect them, and their final salary pensions that their own parents (many of whom quite literally) fought for. I have been directly affected, hopefully it will only be a blip but there’s a very real threat that it has directly impacted my prospects. It also has the potential to negatively impact an entire generation.

To what sacrifice? It’s blindingly clear that the whole referendum campaign and thereafter was based on widely promulgated myths and blatant lies. So are we to just be silent just cos ‘respect your elders’?

Be careful what you wish for; as has been seen in the past, when the electorate get fed up of being told what to do by the elder population, a radical social and political shift tends to occur. Hopefully it won’t be too late for those of us who have been royally screwed over by this.

rogerg 8th Mar 2021 15:16

Mr Mac, I do not know anyone who wants the breakup of the EU. You must have heard it from some of your friends.

antheads 8th Mar 2021 15:35


Originally Posted by pug (Post 11004568)
You say that the U.K. joined a ‘trade partnership’, it’s pretty clear that it was always going to develop in order to implement standardisation across all member states. Without this it simply wouldn’t function. The British economy has been modernised under this apparatus.

Any further trading agreements will require this too, so it puts the sovereignty argument to bed.

Oh I am so happy to hear that EU and China under their new trading agreement will now be sharing sovereignty to implement 'standardization.' That is the Uighur and human rights issue put to bed then! Phew is there anything the EU Commissioners can't do? Just a quick word in China's ear that it simply won't function! Jolly Good!


Mr Mac, I do not know anyone who wants the breakup of the EU. You must have heard it from some of your friends.
Of course he heard it from his friends. The Remainiacs hate Britian as a racist, backwards nation-state filled with people they despise, hence the desire to subsume it into the utopian ideal of the EU. Secondly they scour every article regarding issues with Scotland and Ireland to be able to point and chant See i told you so! Brexit Bad!

ATNotts 8th Mar 2021 15:51


Originally Posted by antheads (Post 11004581)
Oh I am so happy to hear that EU and China under their new trading agreement will now be sharing sovereignty to implement 'standardization.' That is the Uighur and human rights issue put to bed then! Phew is there anything the EU Commissioners can't do? Just a quick word in China's ear that it simply won't function! Jolly Good!

Comparing apples and oranges again.

Any trade agreement will be just that, a trade agreement. However that said, Chinese goods would be expected to meet EU standards and vice versa, similarly even with a trade agreement with the USA the UK would be expected to comply with American standards for goods exported to the USA, and American goods should conform to UK standards (leaving aside for a moment that in reality the UK will do as it's told by the USA, and the the Americans will do as they please - a bit like the lopsided extradition agreement the UK has with the USA).

LowNSlow 8th Mar 2021 15:53

pug; You don't have to have standardisation across all member states you merely need to have each states standards recognised. Insufficient standards equals goods not allowed to be imported.

I would love to know why you think everybody who is currently retired has a final salary pension. I got my annual pension statement through today from the widowed lady from north of the border and that is going to pay me the princely sum of £160/month once I turn 65. Please note this has nothing to do with any final salary pension. The only people I know who had those fabled things were civil servants or long term employees of the likes of BP, NCB and British Steel. It certainly wasn't for the likes of me, a mere contractor or pretty much 99% of the people I've ever worked with.

The population who voted for Leave were fed up of being screwed over by the UK government blaming everything on the EU when that was plainly not the case. Now they can't blame the EU for gold, nay platinum, plated regulations and inane rule/laws. The blame now lies firmly in the Houses of Parliament and they will be held to account on every election.

Regarding the breakup of the EU, I don't see it happening any time soon, it would disrupt far to many gravy trains and topple some teetering economies into an abyss which would then force the frugal Northern Europeans to cough up even more substantial amounts to bail them out.

Denti 8th Mar 2021 15:58


Originally Posted by BizJetJock (Post 11004562)
I think this sums up the the issue that remain supporters have. They don't understand that working together with your neighbours does not necessarily mean marrying them!
As has been stated many times, the UK signed up to a trading partnership.

And yet again, that is, of course, wrong. The UK signed up to an "ever closer union", as was made very clear in the treaty of rome (1957) to which the UK signed up. It is actually mentioned on Page 1 of the text in the preamble. Trade was a means to an end, but not the main topic itself. That was to make each others economy so dependent on each other, that one simply could not do without the other therefore precluding any real threat of a war. And yes, of course it was clear from the beginning that the union would of course go much farther than just trade.

antheads 8th Mar 2021 16:02


Comparing apples and oranges again.

Any trade agreement will be just that, a trade agreement.
Pug literally stated that to have a functional trade agreement a country needs to give up their sovereignty or at least it's not important. This is the whole point of Brexit. To regain sovereignty whilst having trading agreements with the EU and other great powers. I agree there will be a power inbalance with the USA in trading negotiations however they won't be treating Britain as condescendingly as the EU has , because Eurocrats are angry and scared that the Brits have taken their toys and gone home.

ThorMos 8th Mar 2021 16:10


Originally Posted by BizJetJock (Post 11004562)
I
<snip>
As has been stated many times, the UK signed up to a trading partnership. If the other members of that partnership wish to turn it into something different, that's up to them. But they can't object if the UK wants to do something different.<snip>

Well, maybe your politicians should read the papers when they sign them. Following is the first paragraph of the 1957 treaty of rome paper. I am sorry, this is not available in english, you understand why. The paper makes it very clear that a 'closer and closer' union is what is to be acchieved. If your politicians didn't tell you the truth it's not our fault. Would it surprise me? Now, they didn't tell you the truth re Brexit. Now, cancel all your deals with the EU and piss off or shut the **** up!


Erklärungen
1. Gemeinsame Erklärung über die Zusammenarbeit mit den Mitgliedstaaten der internationalen Organisationen
DIE REGIERUNGEN DES KÖNIGSREICHS BELGIEN, DER BUNDESREPUBLIK DEUTSCHLAND, DER FRANZÖSISCHEN REPUBLIK, DER ITALIENISCHEN REPUBLIK, DES GROSSHERZOGTUMS LUXEMBURG UND DES KÖNIGREICHS DER NIEDERLANDE —
IM AUGENBLICK der Unterzeichnung der Verträge, durch die sie untereinander die Europäische Wirtschaftsgemeinschaft und die Europäische Atomgemeinschaft gründen,
IN DEM BEWUSSTSEIN der Verantwortung, die sie für die Zukunft Europas übernehmen, indem sie ihre Markte vereinigen, ihre Volkswirtschaften einander annähern und auf diesem Gebiet die Grundsätze und Einzelheiten einer gemeinsamen Politik festlegen,
IN DER ERKENNTNIS, daß die Schaffung einer Zollunion und eine enge Zusammenarbeit bei der friedlichen Entwicklung der Kernenergie wirksam zum wirtschaftlichen und sozialen Fortschritt und Wohlstand ihrer eigenen sowie der anderen Länder beitragen sollen,
IN DEM BEMÜHEN, diese Länder an den hierdurch eröffneten Ausweitungsmöglichkeiten teilhaben zu lassen —
ERKLÄREN SICH BEREIT, alsbald nach Inkrafttreten dieser Verträge mit den anderen Ländern, insbesondere im Rahmen der internationalen Organisationen, denen sie angehören, Abkommen zu schließen, um diese im gemeinsamen Interesse liegenden Ziele zu erreichen und die harmonische Entwicklung des gesamten Handelsverkehrs zu gewährleisten.

pug 8th Mar 2021 16:16


Originally Posted by antheads (Post 11004602)
Pug literally stated that to have a functional trade agreement a country needs to give up their sovereignty or at least it's not important. This is the whole point of Brexit. To regain sovereignty whilst having trading agreements with the EU and other great powers. I agree there will be a power inbalance with the USA in trading negotiations however they won't be treating Britain as condescendingly as the EU has , because Eurocrats are angry and scared that the Brits have taken their toys and gone home.

I didn’t literally state that at all. My implication being that a prerequisite for most trade agreements is the loss of some sovereignty to align to standards. More than likely now that we are out of the EU, with a diminished sphere of influence, we will probably ironically lose more sovereignty in the endeavour of gaining new trade agreements with the larger blocs.

antheads 8th Mar 2021 16:26


Originally Posted by ThorMos (Post 11004605)
The paper makes it very clear that a 'closer and closer' union is what is to be acchieved.!

I'm not sure anyone thought at the time that 'an ever closer union' meant fifty thousand Dom Perignon swilling technocrats that are taxed at a far lower rate than the populace and have obscene pensions. I'm not sure that at the time they thought that 'an ever closer union' meant that Greece would be turned into a German vassal state. That the Euro would predominantly benefit Germany ,whilst making southern Europe uncompetitive. Also did they wonder that this 'ever closer union would mean nation-states would be ordered and sanctioned by the European Commission (just a civil service!) to take unwanted migrants to solve Mama Merkel's problems?



Mr Mac 8th Mar 2021 16:33


Originally Posted by rogerg (Post 11004572)
Mr Mac, I do not know anyone who wants the breakup of the EU. You must have heard it from some of your friends.

rogerg
Not my friends, just seen a number of posts on here from some people saying the EU is failing and prophesying on its break up with Nedxit, Grexit etc over the years. From where I stand at the moment the UK union looks more in trouble.
Cheers
Mr Mac

rogerg 8th Mar 2021 16:47


Not my friends, just seen a number of posts on here from some people saying the EU is failing and prophesying on its break up
That is not saying they WANT the break up.

OilCan 8th Mar 2021 16:50


Originally Posted by BizJetJock (Post 11004562)
But they can't object if the UK wants to do something different.

They didn't object, we were allowed to leave of our own free will. The fact is we now have different rules to comply with.
Can I take it then that you wont object when the other constituent parts of the UK decide they want to do something different?

You say you want "sensible reasoning", then give us;

Finally, many on here seem to be of the view that if someone votes for something that may result in a reduction of their net income they must by definintion be stupid. If that is true then every single Labour voter on more than the minimum wage is stupid. Or is it a case of only comfortable middle class people are entitled to principles?
I'll confess I'm not the sharpest tool in the box, but I cant make head nor tail of the point your trying to make. :confused: Could you have another go.

under_exposed 8th Mar 2021 16:52


Originally Posted by rogerg (Post 11004635)
That is not saying they WANT the break up.

From the tone of those posts I got the impression they were getting a semi at the thought of it

ThorMos 8th Mar 2021 16:58


Originally Posted by antheads (Post 11004623)
I'm not sure anyone thought at the time that 'an ever closer union' meant fifty thousand Dom Perignon swilling technocrats that are taxed at a far lower rate than the populace and have obscene pensions. I'm not sure that at the time they thought that 'an ever closer union' meant that Greece would be turned into a German vassal state. That the Euro would predominantly benefit Germany ,whilst making southern Europe uncompetitive. Also did they wonder that this 'ever closer union would mean nation-states would be ordered and sanctioned by the European Commission (just a civil service!) to take unwanted migrants to solve Mama Merkel's problems?

You don't want an answer, do you? Once you stop sputtering we can go on, let me know...
Again asking myself why i bother...

ATNotts 8th Mar 2021 17:05


Originally Posted by antheads (Post 11004602)
Pug literally stated that to have a functional trade agreement a country needs to give up their sovereignty or at least it's not important. This is the whole point of Brexit. To regain sovereignty whilst having trading agreements with the EU and other great powers. I agree there will be a power inbalance with the USA in trading negotiations however they won't be treating Britain as condescendingly as the EU has , because Eurocrats are angry and scared that the Brits have taken their toys and gone home.

What Brexiteers fail to grasp is that sovereignty pooled is sovereignty enhanced.

BizJetJock 8th Mar 2021 17:11


What Brexiteers fail to grasp is that sovereignty pooled is sovereignty enhanced.
Yes you're quite right - I completely fail to grasp that. It sounds like nonsense to me. Maybe we have a different view on what constitutes sovereignty?
To me it is self determination by a group. Therefore removing the power to determine the structure of the society you live in to ever more remote - both physically and in terms of numerical representation - organisations does not constitute enhancing sovereignty.


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